ALERT 6 Dams at Serious Risk of Failing from Montana to Missouri - Expert says
- Thread starter awakeaware
- Start date
Countrymouse
Country exile in the city
Big Kumara---you keep mentioning that the water levels on Fort Peck Dam are now falling, but what is your take on the words of this man, apparently an expert on the situation (quoted by the OP of the thread) who in this taped interview with a news station (apparently in St. Louis) speaks of the fact that the snows from the Rockies "are only NOW beginning to melt" (my emphasis) and the stress they will add to the dam system?
It sounds to me like the area is a LONG way from being out of the woods, yet.
packyderms_wife
Neither here nor there.
I think the problem is they actually haven't started melting yet, in fact some places are still getting snow.
K-
Countrymouse
Country exile in the city
Not according to the expert interviewed in the OP's first post -- see post # 1.
Countrymouse
Country exile in the city
I have another question---
Being somewhat of a student of the (comparatively tiny) Brownsville flood (Pennsylvania), I know that this old, faulty dam failed partially not only because they couldn't get the floodgates fully open but because, even when they did, they were soon blocked from debris in the water.
A poster above (couldn't find the number of the post) mentioned debris in the water.
How great a factor / concern could debris in the water of these lakes prove to be as the floodgates are opened to drain them down?
Being somewhat of a student of the (comparatively tiny) Brownsville flood (Pennsylvania), I know that this old, faulty dam failed partially not only because they couldn't get the floodgates fully open but because, even when they did, they were soon blocked from debris in the water.
A poster above (couldn't find the number of the post) mentioned debris in the water.
How great a factor / concern could debris in the water of these lakes prove to be as the floodgates are opened to drain them down?
Sleeping Cobra
TB Fanatic
MISSOURI RIVER REGION, CORPS OF ENGINEERS
http://www.nwd-mr.usace.army.mil/rcc/reports/showrep.cgi?3MRDTAP7
They don't show any important information.
http://www.nwd-mr.usace.army.mil/rcc/reports/showrep.cgi?3MRDTAP7
They don't show any important information.
Sleeping Cobra
TB Fanatic
Video: 6/27/2011 Missouri River Update, Bismarck, ND, New Corps Numbers
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pItNlzRkK0g
@ .30 notice the change in numbers
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pItNlzRkK0g
@ .30 notice the change in numbers
Countrymouse
Country exile in the city
More video (from Terrol3) claiming Gavin's Point is getting ready to blow (he claims to be blown by govt.):
( refers to FEMA people moving into the area and placing themselves ready in station areas with troops, etc.--take a listen)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0paWqvgQ5A
He knows the "Ray" person that testified on Coast to Coast that military higher-ups were evacuating and telling him "Get WEST of the Missississippi! Get WEST of the Mississippi!" Video author believes it is due to the fact that the many nuclear plants in the flood area are all going to be destroyed and go critical when these dams have a cascading fail, resulting in nuclear radiation over the entire eastern half of the U.S., creating a "dead zone" in the entire Eastern U.S. (see thread on original warning by "Ray" on this TB2K thread: http://www.timebomb2000.com/vb/show...warning-for-the-East-Coast-(06-17-11-program)) (Note--he also mentions that no one who knows this "Ray" person has heard from him since Friday, and he was supposed to have given an update on Saturday, so they are concerned about what has become of him and why he has vanished.)
Claims are 'this' is what the June 27-28 "window" the "Ray" fellow on C2C was talking about. "Ray" in the following video uploaded June 24, 2011, (supposedly a follow-up to "Ray's" C2C call) states that it is some sort of "natural disaster" that is supposed to take place around those dates (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fIPmkPSBtM&feature=player_embedded#at=10). He gives his name as Ray Weaver and his birthdate as June 12, 1980, and his address as 6 miles from Ft. Bragg, NC. He said he's moving his wife and daughter out of there to Wichita, Kansas, but he promises to get more information on that date (Friday the 24th) and bring it back to report--but no one has heard of / from him since. (heard at 6:30 into the tape.)
( refers to FEMA people moving into the area and placing themselves ready in station areas with troops, etc.--take a listen)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0paWqvgQ5A
He knows the "Ray" person that testified on Coast to Coast that military higher-ups were evacuating and telling him "Get WEST of the Missississippi! Get WEST of the Mississippi!" Video author believes it is due to the fact that the many nuclear plants in the flood area are all going to be destroyed and go critical when these dams have a cascading fail, resulting in nuclear radiation over the entire eastern half of the U.S., creating a "dead zone" in the entire Eastern U.S. (see thread on original warning by "Ray" on this TB2K thread: http://www.timebomb2000.com/vb/show...warning-for-the-East-Coast-(06-17-11-program)) (Note--he also mentions that no one who knows this "Ray" person has heard from him since Friday, and he was supposed to have given an update on Saturday, so they are concerned about what has become of him and why he has vanished.)
Claims are 'this' is what the June 27-28 "window" the "Ray" fellow on C2C was talking about. "Ray" in the following video uploaded June 24, 2011, (supposedly a follow-up to "Ray's" C2C call) states that it is some sort of "natural disaster" that is supposed to take place around those dates (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fIPmkPSBtM&feature=player_embedded#at=10). He gives his name as Ray Weaver and his birthdate as June 12, 1980, and his address as 6 miles from Ft. Bragg, NC. He said he's moving his wife and daughter out of there to Wichita, Kansas, but he promises to get more information on that date (Friday the 24th) and bring it back to report--but no one has heard of / from him since. (heard at 6:30 into the tape.)
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Countrymouse
Country exile in the city
Sleeping Cobra---not being an engineer, the figures don't mean a lot to me---can you elucidate?
Also, could you please comment on this latest video by Terrol3 (see http://www.youtube.com/user/TerralO3)? It's something I'd normally consign to the "woo-woo" category, except---it's been noted in numerous posts on THIS thread (page 2) and on a separate thread (re Sourous) that the Corps of Engineers is suddenly offering barn-burner-cheap prices on buyups of "river land"---flooded or soon-to-be-flooded land that desperate people will be desperate to sell. I'm not the only one here scratching my head over that and saying, "huh?" But in this video, this "Terrol3" fellow is saying that the figures on sites such as the ones you have posted prove that, while up to 5 feet of snowmelt water is coming down the rivers, the CoE at the same time is LOWERING release amounts from lakes downstream--he cites Grand Lake in particular--and says this proves that the govt., for whatever reason, is DELIBERATELY putting an impossible strain on these dams and setting them up for failure. (he states the govt. is claiming--falsely--some sort of dangerous algae in the lake and that they are going to "shut it down'--does that mean NO releases at all? That is madness, isn't it, for them to do that?)
Can you check out what he's saying and see if he's interpreting the figures correctly?
I don't want to shift the thread into a woo-woo----it's bad enough as it is---but if it "is" true that the government is lowering releases at the same time that water levels are rising---then something most definitely is not right.
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Sleeping Cobra
TB Fanatic
The dam discharge: 150,000 June 17-Mid August. Now they changed the spillway to 120,000 on July 18. Garrison Dam
Countrymouse
Country exile in the city
So, if I understand you correctly, they actually are releasing less water than previously, not more? (I assume you meant "June 18", not July?)
medic38572
TB Fanatic
Yhats what it reads to e they have slowed it down.
Kent
Inactive
Resource Renewal Institute, now that sounds like an interesting organization. Has anyone googled it or checked out Bernard Shanks? How about Harold the smiling Scotsman?
Why don't people like Ft. Pierre SD Director of Public Works Brad Lawrence, who was the first one to sound the alarm back in February, get more interviews?
Maybe they would discover the policies pushed by greens like the Resource Renewal Institute are behind the problem?
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Kent
Inactive
Information on flood flows in many ways
By MATT PEARCE
The Kansas City Star
On Monday near downtown Sioux City, Iowa, the swollen Missouri River made the interchange of Interstate 29 and Hamilton Boulevard more suitable for boats than for cars.
This just in: President Barack Obama has ordered a media blackout over a flood-threatened nuclear plant in Nebraska.
Except … he didn’t.
But that hasn’t stopped more than 40,000 Facebook users from sharing a recent article from a Pakistani news agency that says he did — a ripple that turned into a wave, finally prompting officials to publicly deny the rumors.
Welcome to the new world of catastrophe communication, where social media and the Internet have hyperaccelerated the way that we spread both information and misinformation.
Luckily, that speed has been largely a good thing in a disaster like the Missouri River flooding.
News of upstream levee breaches and faraway road closures, which might have previously trickled out through a news conference later recounted in a newspaper story or a TV broadcast, now flies out as fast as anyone can type a text message, a tweet or a Facebook post.
Among those leading the way have been emergency management officials in Atchison County, Mo., a lightly populated and flood-endangered county in the northwest corner of the state where their Facebook page has drawn almost 2,000 followers.
“We can put something on there, and within 10 minutes, we’ve had any number of people repost it to their friends and family,” said Mark Manchester, deputy emergency management director for the county. Sometimes it’s bad news.
“A lot of people have thanked us for giving it to them straight — even if it’s not something that they want to hear — so they know what’s happening.”
And there’s a lot to share. Thanks to increasingly Web-minded government agencies, hard information is easier and faster to get than ever.
The National Weather Service’s website is home to a data-driven flood prediction map — with multicolored dots representing flood forecasts, strung across the continental United States like lights on a Christmas tree. The dot over St. Joseph is purple; click on it, and you can see up-to-the-minute measurements of the river’s height, and a prediction of where it’s expected to climb.
The Army Corps of Engineers has an array of Twitter accounts and maps and charts that put news and numbers to the real-life flood fight that is expected to last all summer.
“We really work hard to get the word out, and the corps tries to tell the story of this flood very aggressively,” said Dave Becker, an operations manager for the Gavins Point Dam in South Dakota, where floodwater releases into the lower Missouri River have been tracked almost incessantly by the media and the public.
“We’re here to serve the public, and they need to be informed citizens about what’s going on in their nation,” Becker said. “On a real important issue, like this flood on the river, they need to be informed about what’s going on … so they can make the best decisions about whether they need to sandbag or not, whether they need to evacuate their house or not.”
And the social media help spread that message faster.
Unfortunately, Becker noted, “In this age — the electronic age, the social media age — misinformation travels pretty fast too.”
The Corps of Engineers this weekend had to respond to a rumor in a video, posted Saturday, featuring a man in an American flag shirt who identified himself as Harold the Smiling Scotsman.
“I’m making this video because there are some very disturbing developments that have taken place along the Missouri River that people need to know about,” said Harold, who doesn’t have a Scottish accent and doesn’t smile in the video.
In a tone of dead certainty, he said that the Gavins Point Dam was about to burst, and that the Corps of Engineers was lacing the dam with explosives as a last resort.
His source? “A few days ago, a very good friend of mine called me to tell me that one of his people has a good friend that holds a position at Gavins Point Dam.”
Becker’s response: Uh, no.
Becker runs the dam. “All of our facilities are in excellent shape,” he said.
Any time spent on fighting false information is time taken away from managing the flood problems.
“The rumors have been as difficult to combat as the rising floodwaters,” wrote a U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission spokesman in a blog post rebutting the Pakistani news article.
Read more: http://www.kansascity.com/2011/06/27/2979100/information-on-flood-flows-in.html#ixzz1QZJJLYNu
By MATT PEARCE
The Kansas City Star
On Monday near downtown Sioux City, Iowa, the swollen Missouri River made the interchange of Interstate 29 and Hamilton Boulevard more suitable for boats than for cars.
This just in: President Barack Obama has ordered a media blackout over a flood-threatened nuclear plant in Nebraska.
Except … he didn’t.
But that hasn’t stopped more than 40,000 Facebook users from sharing a recent article from a Pakistani news agency that says he did — a ripple that turned into a wave, finally prompting officials to publicly deny the rumors.
Welcome to the new world of catastrophe communication, where social media and the Internet have hyperaccelerated the way that we spread both information and misinformation.
Luckily, that speed has been largely a good thing in a disaster like the Missouri River flooding.
News of upstream levee breaches and faraway road closures, which might have previously trickled out through a news conference later recounted in a newspaper story or a TV broadcast, now flies out as fast as anyone can type a text message, a tweet or a Facebook post.
Among those leading the way have been emergency management officials in Atchison County, Mo., a lightly populated and flood-endangered county in the northwest corner of the state where their Facebook page has drawn almost 2,000 followers.
“We can put something on there, and within 10 minutes, we’ve had any number of people repost it to their friends and family,” said Mark Manchester, deputy emergency management director for the county. Sometimes it’s bad news.
“A lot of people have thanked us for giving it to them straight — even if it’s not something that they want to hear — so they know what’s happening.”
And there’s a lot to share. Thanks to increasingly Web-minded government agencies, hard information is easier and faster to get than ever.
The National Weather Service’s website is home to a data-driven flood prediction map — with multicolored dots representing flood forecasts, strung across the continental United States like lights on a Christmas tree. The dot over St. Joseph is purple; click on it, and you can see up-to-the-minute measurements of the river’s height, and a prediction of where it’s expected to climb.
The Army Corps of Engineers has an array of Twitter accounts and maps and charts that put news and numbers to the real-life flood fight that is expected to last all summer.
“We really work hard to get the word out, and the corps tries to tell the story of this flood very aggressively,” said Dave Becker, an operations manager for the Gavins Point Dam in South Dakota, where floodwater releases into the lower Missouri River have been tracked almost incessantly by the media and the public.
“We’re here to serve the public, and they need to be informed citizens about what’s going on in their nation,” Becker said. “On a real important issue, like this flood on the river, they need to be informed about what’s going on … so they can make the best decisions about whether they need to sandbag or not, whether they need to evacuate their house or not.”
And the social media help spread that message faster.
Unfortunately, Becker noted, “In this age — the electronic age, the social media age — misinformation travels pretty fast too.”
The Corps of Engineers this weekend had to respond to a rumor in a video, posted Saturday, featuring a man in an American flag shirt who identified himself as Harold the Smiling Scotsman.
“I’m making this video because there are some very disturbing developments that have taken place along the Missouri River that people need to know about,” said Harold, who doesn’t have a Scottish accent and doesn’t smile in the video.
In a tone of dead certainty, he said that the Gavins Point Dam was about to burst, and that the Corps of Engineers was lacing the dam with explosives as a last resort.
His source? “A few days ago, a very good friend of mine called me to tell me that one of his people has a good friend that holds a position at Gavins Point Dam.”
Becker’s response: Uh, no.
Becker runs the dam. “All of our facilities are in excellent shape,” he said.
Any time spent on fighting false information is time taken away from managing the flood problems.
“The rumors have been as difficult to combat as the rising floodwaters,” wrote a U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission spokesman in a blog post rebutting the Pakistani news article.
Read more: http://www.kansascity.com/2011/06/27/2979100/information-on-flood-flows-in.html#ixzz1QZJJLYNu
Countrymouse
Country exile in the city
Please don't lump the two together. I really can't picture CBS news in St. Louis interviewing the 2nd. When you dismiss things like this out of hand it sounds like a knee-jerk response, and frankly this situation, if true, is too serious to just casually throw "the baby out with the bathwater".
Have you looked at the all the actual youtube videos of the dams? If you do, you will see that each one has EARLIER videos of the dams under NORMAL water conditions. Watch a few of those, and compare the two. I think, if you do, even without you and me being "experts" we'll be able to see the stress those dams are under.
Countrymouse
Country exile in the city
By the way, I don't know about the place this guy works with, but "if" they were some enviro-wacko place they would be in FAVOR of the water being held back (read the articles about what the envior-wackos wanted) and would be in FAVOR of "returning the river to its natural state"--i.e., the dams failing.
This guy sounded like he was anything but in favor of that.
Countrymouse
Country exile in the city
This article he wrote is pretty much a repeat of the interview--and in it, it sounds to me like he's calling more for having the dams re-built than for tearing them down (which is what the enviro-wackos want, per the previous page's articles others quoted). His main beef seems to be with the way the Corps is managing the dams, and with Leon Panetta for not correcting that.
I can't testify to that other than what I've seen written here, but I DO know the Corps made an absolute ASS of themselves in their "management" of the Lake Lanier Dam during our horrific drought a few years ago--letting so much water OUT of the lake to keep some endangered fish alive further down the line in Alabama that the city of Atlanta nearly ran out of drinking water. And that is a fact, not an exaggeration, if you want to research it. Then, a couple of years later, during our sudden flood, they CONTINUED huge water releases, adding MORE floodwaters to an area of the city that was already inundated. It's like these guys with the Corps are not functioning according to any common-sense rules, but just robotically "doing as we're ordered, according to the protocol" (their excuse to Atlantans at the time) without ANY regard to the ACTUAL situation and needs of the area at the time.
Oh, and Kent---since you want something "official" from the "government", you'll be relieved to know this guy used to work for a couple of government agencies, akin to those quoted in your article that were "government agencies (with) hard information ... easier and faster to get than ever", such as the U.S. Geological Survey, and the Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife.
______________________________________________________________
Guest commentary: The looming Missouri dam flood
http://www.stltoday.com/news/opinion/article_2b1eeca2-e701-51dd-83c2-f7bcc81845a4.html
By Bernard Shanks STLtoday.com | Posted: Tuesday, June 7, 2011 12:00 am | (13) Comments
There is very real threat of a flood that will leave St. Louis in chest-high water. The reason: Six old, huge, faulty dams that normally have reserve space for spring snow melt are nearly full now — before the spring floods start. Floodgates that haven't been opened in 50 years have begun to open. Flooding has begun. And the human and economic toll could be ghastly.
Why another flood disaster? Six dams from Fort Peck in Montana to Gavins Point in South Dakota, authorized by the Flood Control Act of 1944, are in the process of failing at flood control. With spring water levels low, they can hold back more than three years of average Missouri River flow — enough to stop the worst floods and protect 750 miles of the Missouri River valley and heartland cities. This year, that is not the case.
Let me give you a sense of scale. These reservoirs are massive. Four of the nation's 10 largest reservoirs are along the Missouri River — Fort Peck, Fort Randall, Garrison and Oahe. Three of these had less than five feet of total storage space behind the floodgates at the end of May. With a combined height of 700 feet, these three dams are nearly full. Melting snow surely will complete the task.
With cities from Wolf Point, Mont., to St. Louis facing record levels of water, hundreds of thousands of people are threatened by the unprecedented opening of floodgates. The greatest fear is the massive Fort Peck Dam, a hydraulic-fill dam that is the largest of its kind.
The Fort Peck Dam is built with a flawed design that has suffered a well-known fate for this type of dam — liquefaction — in which saturated soil loses its stability. Hydraulic-fill dams are prone to almost instant collapse from stress or earthquakes. California required all hydraulic-fill dams be torn out or rebuilt — and no other large dams have been built this way since.
At three miles wide, Fort Peck Dam last opened its floodgates 36 years ago. By the end of the first week in June, the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers will be releasing a record spill of water. The corps recently answered the question of possible failure with a statement the dam is "absolutely safe." It may be the largest at-risk dam in the nation.
Downstream, Garrison Dam never has had to use its floodgates since the dam was constructed 50 years ago. By mid-June, the corps plans to dump water equal to a good-sized river. The same is true for Oahe Dam, the next one downstream. Since the reservoirs are nearly full, the corps has no choice.
Effective flood control from six large dams is no longer an option. As a corps representative said, "It now moves us into uncharted territory."
We must all pose a question of national significance to the corps: What if Fort Peck Dam should fail?
Here is a likely scenario: Garrison, Oahe and three other downstream earthen dams would have to catch and hold a massive amount of water, an area covering nearly 250 square miles 100 feet deep. But earthen dams, when overtopped with floodwater, do not stand. They break and erode away, usually within an hour. All are full.
There is a possibility a failure of Fort Peck Dam could lead to a domino-like collapse of all five downstream dams. It probably would wreck every bridge, highway, pipeline and power line and split the heartland of the nation, leaving a gap 1,500 miles wide. Countless sewage treatment plants, toxic waste sites and even Superfund sites would be flushed downstream. The death toll and blow to our economy would be ghastly.
Years after Katrina and the New Orleans levee breaks, professional engineers and a federal court judge ruled theCorps of Engineers was to blame.
Are we once again at the brink of a massive corps failure? The corps is infamous for management errors, caving to commercial pressure and losing sight of its primary mission. This pending threat is so huge that it is gambling with the nation's security.
The corps is placing the nation at risk, and if the dams fail, Leon Panetta, who will become secretary of Defense later this month, will have the great Missouri Flood Disaster on his desk. And the entire nation will demand answers as to why the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers did not avert disaster with more economically and ecologically sound methods of flood prevention.
Bernard Shanks, an adviser to the Resource Renewal Institute, has studied the six main-stem Missouri River dams for more than four decades. He has worked for the U.S. Geological Survey and served as director of the Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife. He has written three books on public land policy and is completing a book on the hazards of the Missouri River dams.
Read more: http://www.stltoday.com/news/opinion/article_2b1eeca2-e701-51dd-83c2-f7bcc81845a4.html#ixzz1QZaM0gxR
I can't testify to that other than what I've seen written here, but I DO know the Corps made an absolute ASS of themselves in their "management" of the Lake Lanier Dam during our horrific drought a few years ago--letting so much water OUT of the lake to keep some endangered fish alive further down the line in Alabama that the city of Atlanta nearly ran out of drinking water. And that is a fact, not an exaggeration, if you want to research it. Then, a couple of years later, during our sudden flood, they CONTINUED huge water releases, adding MORE floodwaters to an area of the city that was already inundated. It's like these guys with the Corps are not functioning according to any common-sense rules, but just robotically "doing as we're ordered, according to the protocol" (their excuse to Atlantans at the time) without ANY regard to the ACTUAL situation and needs of the area at the time.
Oh, and Kent---since you want something "official" from the "government", you'll be relieved to know this guy used to work for a couple of government agencies, akin to those quoted in your article that were "government agencies (with) hard information ... easier and faster to get than ever", such as the U.S. Geological Survey, and the Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife.
______________________________________________________________
Guest commentary: The looming Missouri dam flood
http://www.stltoday.com/news/opinion/article_2b1eeca2-e701-51dd-83c2-f7bcc81845a4.html
By Bernard Shanks STLtoday.com | Posted: Tuesday, June 7, 2011 12:00 am | (13) Comments
There is very real threat of a flood that will leave St. Louis in chest-high water. The reason: Six old, huge, faulty dams that normally have reserve space for spring snow melt are nearly full now — before the spring floods start. Floodgates that haven't been opened in 50 years have begun to open. Flooding has begun. And the human and economic toll could be ghastly.
Why another flood disaster? Six dams from Fort Peck in Montana to Gavins Point in South Dakota, authorized by the Flood Control Act of 1944, are in the process of failing at flood control. With spring water levels low, they can hold back more than three years of average Missouri River flow — enough to stop the worst floods and protect 750 miles of the Missouri River valley and heartland cities. This year, that is not the case.
Let me give you a sense of scale. These reservoirs are massive. Four of the nation's 10 largest reservoirs are along the Missouri River — Fort Peck, Fort Randall, Garrison and Oahe. Three of these had less than five feet of total storage space behind the floodgates at the end of May. With a combined height of 700 feet, these three dams are nearly full. Melting snow surely will complete the task.
With cities from Wolf Point, Mont., to St. Louis facing record levels of water, hundreds of thousands of people are threatened by the unprecedented opening of floodgates. The greatest fear is the massive Fort Peck Dam, a hydraulic-fill dam that is the largest of its kind.
The Fort Peck Dam is built with a flawed design that has suffered a well-known fate for this type of dam — liquefaction — in which saturated soil loses its stability. Hydraulic-fill dams are prone to almost instant collapse from stress or earthquakes. California required all hydraulic-fill dams be torn out or rebuilt — and no other large dams have been built this way since.
At three miles wide, Fort Peck Dam last opened its floodgates 36 years ago. By the end of the first week in June, the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers will be releasing a record spill of water. The corps recently answered the question of possible failure with a statement the dam is "absolutely safe." It may be the largest at-risk dam in the nation.
Downstream, Garrison Dam never has had to use its floodgates since the dam was constructed 50 years ago. By mid-June, the corps plans to dump water equal to a good-sized river. The same is true for Oahe Dam, the next one downstream. Since the reservoirs are nearly full, the corps has no choice.
Effective flood control from six large dams is no longer an option. As a corps representative said, "It now moves us into uncharted territory."
We must all pose a question of national significance to the corps: What if Fort Peck Dam should fail?
Here is a likely scenario: Garrison, Oahe and three other downstream earthen dams would have to catch and hold a massive amount of water, an area covering nearly 250 square miles 100 feet deep. But earthen dams, when overtopped with floodwater, do not stand. They break and erode away, usually within an hour. All are full.
There is a possibility a failure of Fort Peck Dam could lead to a domino-like collapse of all five downstream dams. It probably would wreck every bridge, highway, pipeline and power line and split the heartland of the nation, leaving a gap 1,500 miles wide. Countless sewage treatment plants, toxic waste sites and even Superfund sites would be flushed downstream. The death toll and blow to our economy would be ghastly.
Years after Katrina and the New Orleans levee breaks, professional engineers and a federal court judge ruled theCorps of Engineers was to blame.
Are we once again at the brink of a massive corps failure? The corps is infamous for management errors, caving to commercial pressure and losing sight of its primary mission. This pending threat is so huge that it is gambling with the nation's security.
The corps is placing the nation at risk, and if the dams fail, Leon Panetta, who will become secretary of Defense later this month, will have the great Missouri Flood Disaster on his desk. And the entire nation will demand answers as to why the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers did not avert disaster with more economically and ecologically sound methods of flood prevention.
Bernard Shanks, an adviser to the Resource Renewal Institute, has studied the six main-stem Missouri River dams for more than four decades. He has worked for the U.S. Geological Survey and served as director of the Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife. He has written three books on public land policy and is completing a book on the hazards of the Missouri River dams.
Read more: http://www.stltoday.com/news/opinion/article_2b1eeca2-e701-51dd-83c2-f7bcc81845a4.html#ixzz1QZaM0gxR
Sleeping Cobra
TB Fanatic
Video: 2011 Missouri River Flood
In late May, Governor Dennis Daugaard warned residents of South Dakota along the downstream areas of the Missouri River (south of the Oahe Dam) to be prepared for rising water levels over the next few days, weeks and possibly months.
In the spring, snow melt and heavy rains caused record flows into the river from Montana through South Dakota. The U.S. Army Corps of Engineers increased water releases from the mainstem dams, raising water levels below the Oahe Dam, Big Bend Dam, Ft. Randall Dam, and Gavins Point Dam.
This video documents the water releases at the Oahe Dam in Pierre (State Capital) from late May through mid-June.
The Society is looking to add materials from the current flooding in South Dakota to the museum and archives' collections. If you, or anyone you know in Dakota Dunes, Yankton, Pierre, Ft. Pierre, or anywhere else along the Missouri has flood related objects, photos, videos, or stories, please contact the South Dakota State Historical Society.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFKMD_g5mI4
In late May, Governor Dennis Daugaard warned residents of South Dakota along the downstream areas of the Missouri River (south of the Oahe Dam) to be prepared for rising water levels over the next few days, weeks and possibly months.
In the spring, snow melt and heavy rains caused record flows into the river from Montana through South Dakota. The U.S. Army Corps of Engineers increased water releases from the mainstem dams, raising water levels below the Oahe Dam, Big Bend Dam, Ft. Randall Dam, and Gavins Point Dam.
This video documents the water releases at the Oahe Dam in Pierre (State Capital) from late May through mid-June.
The Society is looking to add materials from the current flooding in South Dakota to the museum and archives' collections. If you, or anyone you know in Dakota Dunes, Yankton, Pierre, Ft. Pierre, or anywhere else along the Missouri has flood related objects, photos, videos, or stories, please contact the South Dakota State Historical Society.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFKMD_g5mI4
Sleeping Cobra
TB Fanatic
Video: The Very Grand Coulee Dam
Jun 27, 2011
Water coming over the Dam. June, 2011.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-uvQeC6H3Yo
Jun 27, 2011
Water coming over the Dam. June, 2011.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-uvQeC6H3Yo
Sleeping Cobra
TB Fanatic
Missouri River Flood: Fort Peck Increases Water Release Rates
Rain and an increase in local water runoff has prompted the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers to increase the water flow rates at the Fort Peck Reservoir near Glasgow, Montana.
The Rising River
On Friday, June 10 the water flow rate will increase by 5,000 cubic feet per second to 55,000 cfs, according to Jody Farhat, Chief of the Missouri River Water Management office. The flow should better balance the water levels between Fort Peck and Garrison Dam in North Dakota.
While the USACE has a delicate balancing act to conduct, residents downstream from the dams are feeling the brunt of the flood already.
Preparing for Disaster
As communities upstream are spared excessive spring flooding, residents of Nebraska, South Dakota, and Iowa are saying their goodbyes to family homes as evacuation suggestions increase in the area.
The Missouri River flooding is a planned event that came with approximately a week warning. But that doesn't mean that communities along the Missouri River and its tributaries have to like the plan. Why didn't the USACE start releasing water earlier this spring? Flood waters may not recede in the Midwest before the first freeze. Is there a plan in place for potential ice jams?
Thankfully most communities along the river are helping one another with sandbagging efforts, building levees and providing emotional support. As the waters rise, Midwesterners must wait and see if the Inundation Maps provided by the USACE were correct.
Releases from Fort Peck are expected to continue until August 2011.
http://news.gather.com/viewArticle.action?articleId=281474979417999
Rain and an increase in local water runoff has prompted the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers to increase the water flow rates at the Fort Peck Reservoir near Glasgow, Montana.
The Rising River
On Friday, June 10 the water flow rate will increase by 5,000 cubic feet per second to 55,000 cfs, according to Jody Farhat, Chief of the Missouri River Water Management office. The flow should better balance the water levels between Fort Peck and Garrison Dam in North Dakota.
While the USACE has a delicate balancing act to conduct, residents downstream from the dams are feeling the brunt of the flood already.
Preparing for Disaster
As communities upstream are spared excessive spring flooding, residents of Nebraska, South Dakota, and Iowa are saying their goodbyes to family homes as evacuation suggestions increase in the area.
The Missouri River flooding is a planned event that came with approximately a week warning. But that doesn't mean that communities along the Missouri River and its tributaries have to like the plan. Why didn't the USACE start releasing water earlier this spring? Flood waters may not recede in the Midwest before the first freeze. Is there a plan in place for potential ice jams?
Thankfully most communities along the river are helping one another with sandbagging efforts, building levees and providing emotional support. As the waters rise, Midwesterners must wait and see if the Inundation Maps provided by the USACE were correct.
Releases from Fort Peck are expected to continue until August 2011.
http://news.gather.com/viewArticle.action?articleId=281474979417999
Sleeping Cobra
TB Fanatic
"Flood waters may not recede in the Midwest before the first freeze"
I thought of this too. Imagine cities "frozen in a gigantic ice cube".
I thought of this too. Imagine cities "frozen in a gigantic ice cube".
Sleeping Cobra
TB Fanatic
Video: Missouri River Flooding & Fort Peck Dam
Took a drive on June 19th to see the Missouri River (outside Williston, ND) swollen to an all time high. Then over to the Fort Peck Dam in Montana to see the spillway opened.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6wLfulaA8M
@ 7:03 "Don't Look Like Much Water" (being released)
Took a drive on June 19th to see the Missouri River (outside Williston, ND) swollen to an all time high. Then over to the Fort Peck Dam in Montana to see the spillway opened.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6wLfulaA8M
@ 7:03 "Don't Look Like Much Water" (being released)
Sleeping Cobra
TB Fanatic
Fort Peck (MT)
Current Level: 2,251.00
Full Pool: 2,234.00
+17.00
Reading
Date - Time: 6/27/2011 11:00:00 PM
http://www.lakelevels.info/?StateID=MT
Current Level: 2,251.00
Full Pool: 2,234.00
+17.00
Reading
Date - Time: 6/27/2011 11:00:00 PM
http://www.lakelevels.info/?StateID=MT
PCViking
Lutefisk Survivor
SC, you just have to dig...
Here's a link for a click-able map: http://www.nwd-mr.usace.army.mil/rcc/gages/gagestat.html
dragonslayer2001
Inactive
3 pages worth and most of it errant nonsense about the Corp of Engineers dynomiting the dams to make soros rich.
good grief.
I'M A CONSPIRACY THEORIST but many of you are far beyond the pale............. lol
good grief.
I'M A CONSPIRACY THEORIST but many of you are far beyond the pale............. lol
big kumara
meh
Shanks is a lot like Paul Milne. When it comes to dams and such, he is a total doomer. He is definitely enjoying his fifteen minutes.
The level at Fort Peck is steadily dropping because they are releasing more water than is coming in. They are releasing the water to make room for the snow melt. If the snow melts faster than expected, they will release more water.
They are currently releasing 58,200 cfs (down from yesterday) and the pool is still dropping. Maximum discharge capability is 250,000 cfs.
Maximum capacity is 19,100,000 acre-feet. Current storage is 18,710,000 acre-feet. They have room.
big kumara
meh
Debris is not an issue with these dams. If you could see them in person, you wouldn't even ask.
big kumara
meh
What you don't seem to understand is that these dams were designed to handle that much water.
big kumara
meh
Here is a likely scenario: Garrison, Oahe and three other downstream earthen dams would have to catch and hold a massive amount of water, an area covering nearly 250 square miles 100 feet deep. But earthen dams, when overtopped with floodwater, do not stand. They break and erode away, usually within an hour. All are full.
What he's not mentioning is that these "earthen" dams have a core of steel and concrete. Hell, I've been inside three of these dams--the actual "earthen" dams, not just the power house. He also leaves out the fact the tops of the spillways are lower than the tops of the dams--the dams can't be overtopped.
What he's not mentioning is that these "earthen" dams have a core of steel and concrete. Hell, I've been inside three of these dams--the actual "earthen" dams, not just the power house. He also leaves out the fact the tops of the spillways are lower than the tops of the dams--the dams can't be overtopped.
big kumara
meh
Here's a thought:
How many here have actually seen/toured any of these dams in person? Come on, raise your hands, don't be shy...
How many here have actually seen/toured any of these dams in person? Come on, raise your hands, don't be shy...
dragonslayer2001
Inactive
There IS a significant danger here, anyone with a lick of sense can see that. It is STILL raining here and there is STILL plenty of snow in the Mountains. And those dams are old and dams like everything else can and do fail.
so the denialists are full of it too. Look at Minot.
however, the Corp getting ready to blow the damns to irradiate everything East of the Mississippi? Good grief get a grip.
Yes there IS a NWO. Yes more than half our politicos ARE traitors in the old fashioned sense............. that does not justify freaking out over truly stupid conspiracy theories.
so the denialists are full of it too. Look at Minot.
however, the Corp getting ready to blow the damns to irradiate everything East of the Mississippi? Good grief get a grip.
Yes there IS a NWO. Yes more than half our politicos ARE traitors in the old fashioned sense............. that does not justify freaking out over truly stupid conspiracy theories.
PCViking
Lutefisk Survivor
BK, I've been to a number of hydro dams... even had an engineer's grade tour of the turbines on one.
Unless there is a earthquake or act of terrorism, the Big MO's dams will hold. Back in 'the day' the USA over-designed everything, but there have been reports of cracks on one... If they overflow, they will turn into spillway dams (that type is way more common than you may think), and yes the concrete dams can handle that. The fact of the matter is that they are all at capacity, and the countryside between dams seriously flooded. If you look at the levels plots... they do release, but then it has to be a stepped process... The Army Corps of Engineers does know what they are doing... the fact is they have never faced this much water before.
Do you know your hydro statics? The issue is actual dam height, not width... nor how much area is covered with water behind the dam.
The biggest threat to the 2 nuclear reactors is the shear incompetence of the government bureaucracy. A couple of midwestern farm boys (with a single bulldozer) could have devised a better flood prevention/protection plan they they did. Sand bags and a water filled sock... *LOL*
Sleeping Cobra
TB Fanatic
Video: Oahe Dam Release Gates
Oahe Dame release gates on June 28, 2011 flow rate 110,000 cubic feet per second.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2w2VGG5nGkE
starting @ .55 look at the "flooding" this is causing. With the water being discharged.
Oahe Dame release gates on June 28, 2011 flow rate 110,000 cubic feet per second.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2w2VGG5nGkE
starting @ .55 look at the "flooding" this is causing. With the water being discharged.
night driver
ESFP adrift in INTJ sea
SC, it isn't like as soon as the temp goes below 32*F that large quantities of water turn to ice. Particularly moving water. It takes either well below zero weather for a fair length of time or a long time for 15-30* to freeze enough for ice jams...
For reference the Racquette river never QUITE froze while I was at Clarkson, and they get -60 temps up there.
Ice jams aer likely the least of our worries here.
Kent
Inactive
Dr Shanks is no dam expert (er, expert on dams) either. The government jobs he has had are fish and wildlife and land policy. You will notice they did not do much of an interview with real experts like Dave Becker or Brad Lawrence. Brad Lawrence was trying to tell them five months ago they had problems, but the influence of groups like the Resource Renewal Institute stop them from doing anything. The problem lies with the green groups, not industry.
Yes there may be a small chance the dam(s) will not hold, but the real experts don't seem to be worried.
The Middle East is a powder keg, our economy is in shambles, and North Korea and Iran are making waves. Anyone one of those things are (IMHO) more likely to give us problems than the dams breaking.
Sleeping Cobra
TB Fanatic
Video: Big Bend Dam Back-Cutting
On June 27, 2011, we bserved back-cutting at the dam. Nearby rock was being off loaded in preparation for some construction work. It was confirmed by an Army civilian worker that there were some issues of erosion that needed to be addressed.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zAIg4YOFhpw
On June 27, 2011, we bserved back-cutting at the dam. Nearby rock was being off loaded in preparation for some construction work. It was confirmed by an Army civilian worker that there were some issues of erosion that needed to be addressed.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zAIg4YOFhpw
Sleeping Cobra
TB Fanatic
Can This Thread Please Be A Sticky
I think it's important to keep up-to-date on this as time goes by.
I think it's important to keep up-to-date on this as time goes by.
Sleeping Cobra
TB Fanatic
Video: Flooding begins to threaten KCP&L's Iatan power plant
Flooding begins to threaten KCP&L's Iatan power plant in Platte County, Missouri. A partial evacuation has been ordered. The plant continues to operate as flood water rushes into property.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qr29SWG-Ck0
Flooding begins to threaten KCP&L's Iatan power plant in Platte County, Missouri. A partial evacuation has been ordered. The plant continues to operate as flood water rushes into property.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qr29SWG-Ck0
big kumara
meh
BK, I've been to a number of hydro dams... even had an engineer's grade tour of the turbines on one.
Unless there is a earthquake or act of terrorism, the Big MO's dams will hold. Back in 'the day' the USA over-designed everything, but there have been reports of cracks on one... If they overflow, they will turn into spillway dams (that type is way more common than you may think), and yes the concrete dams can handle that. The fact of the matter is that they are all at capacity, and the countryside between dams seriously flooded. If you look at the levels plots... they do release, but then it has to be a stepped process... The Army Corps of Engineers does know what they are doing... the fact is they have never faced this much water before.
Do you know your hydro statics? The issue is actual dam height, not width... nor how much area is covered with water behind the dam.
The biggest threat to the 2 nuclear reactors is the shear incompetence of the government bureaucracy. A couple of midwestern farm boys (with a single bulldozer) could have devised a better flood prevention/protection plan they they did. Sand bags and a water filled sock... *LOL*
I agree on the nuke plants.
As far as cracks in the dams...there hasn't been one single, credible report of cracks in the dams. Not one. All these reports are bullshit. Every story follows the same pattern: I have a close personal friend who knows a guy who has a friend who knows someone high up in the coe...it's bullshit. Harold The Smiling Scotsman should have a hipwaders warning on his video. That fool is posting his nonsense all over the internet.
Why does all this bother me?
Those rumors cost people money. Every time a new, improved rumor hits the net, people who don't know any better start cancelling reservations at hotels and resorts and campgrounds, even if they are 100 miles from the river. The fearmongers who create and spread this crap are putting people out of work as effectively as the flood waters. I hope they're proud of themselves.
Posting factual information is good. Posting unsubstaniated rumors disguised as fact is irresponsible and dishonest.
Countrymouse
Country exile in the city
OK, I'm confused.
Brad Lawrence says the dams are in trouble, and he is to be believed, because he is an expert. (Post 57: http://www.timebomb2000.com/vb/show...to-Missouri-Expert-says&p=4105585#post4105585).
Dr. Shanks says the dams are in trouble, but he is NOT to be believed, because he works for an environmental agency now---even though what he says agrees with what Brad Lawrence says---that the dams are in trouble and could be in danger of failure. (initially quoted in Post 52, http://www.timebomb2000.com/vb/show...to-Missouri-Expert-says&p=4105579#post4105579, and fully quoted in post 97, http://www.timebomb2000.com/vb/show...to-Missouri-Expert-says&p=4106436#post4106436).
You're saying, if I understand you correctly---"Believe this one, but don't believe that one--even though they are both saying the same thing."
