ALERT RUSSIA INVADES UKRAINE - Consolidated Thread

Teawhisk

Jarl of Drakenstead
Just picked up an unprecedented and supposed release of statement from "US Intelligence" Russia is setting up for a false flag attack on their own assets by Russian Special Ops units in order to justify moving troops into Ukraine. This came out of "Business Insider" about 9 hours ago. The source other than "US Intelligence" was not cited.
If our assets are watching this that close and the Russians actually do this, my guess is that this would be a definite causus belli.n It looks like the preps many of us put in place are going to be very useful very soon.
G-d help us all.
 

jward

passin' thru
Rob Lee
@RALee85


This article makes some good points, but ultimately what is happening now is more of a Russia-Ukraine story than a Russia-US one. Putin is bringing in the US/NATO because it is his only option short of using military force to influence Kyiv.
Framing this as Putin calling the US' bluff is the wrong way to look at it. Putin is mostly responding to events in Kyiv over the past two years and hopes Biden could force Zelensky into concessions. We mistakenly frame everything as being about the US, but the US is peripheral.

James Griffin
@spawnofKahn

10m

Replying to
@RALee85

This article is an aggressively bad take. We ‘were’ bluffing, but not because of incapacity (it’s still cheaper to station active BCTs in Europe than to keep them in CONUS), we’re simply strategically retarded.


Putin calls America's bluff
Damon Linker



Putin calls America's bluff on Ukraine
Now the hard choices begin

Picture of Damon Linker

January 14, 2022
Russia has amassed significant forces along the border of Ukraine. Talks between Russia and NATO appear to have broken down. Members of Washington's foreign policy establishment are beginning to suggest the need to respond to any Russian military moves against Ukraine with a strong show of force.

How did we get here, seemingly on track toward either direct military confrontation with a nuclear-armed state nearly 5,000 miles from American shores, or poised to back down and retreat in the face of a frontal challenge to a military alliance led by the United States?

The answer is that we got here by bluffing — and the evident decision of Russian President Vladimir Putin to call our bluff. One possible response to this unhappy situation is to continue bluffing in the hopes that Putin will eventually blink. The other, far more reasonable path is to reassess the decisions that got us here in the first place and move forward with less unsustainable hubris.

Once the Cold War had drawn to a close, the United States began to extend formal and informal security guarantees to far-flung places around the globe. These came on top of older guarantees that originated during the West's decades-long confrontation with the Soviet Union and its numerous satellite and client states.
The U.S. was already formally committed to defending Western Europe through NATO, as well as Japan and South Korea. Our arrangement with Taiwan was less explicit, but everyone understood that we would be unlikely to turn a blind eye to any Chinese move to invade the island.

America's reaction to Iraq's invasion of neighboring Kuwait just months prior to the final dissolution of the USSR demonstrated that the U.S. intended to use its military and diplomatic clout to prevent the outbreak of cross-border military conflict in the Middle East — and to punish governments that violated such strictures.

Then, later in the 1990s, came the beginning of NATO's expansion eastward and its projection of power outside its own borders into the Balkans to halt horrible bloodletting in the states of the former Yugoslavia. The spectacular terrorist attacks of 9/11, planned by Al Qaeda in Taliban-controlled Afghanistan, prompted the U.S. and its NATO allies to project power even farther, now all the way to South Asia. The subsequent invasion and occupation of Iraq, undertaken by the United States and select allies apart from NATO, was sold as necessary to eliminate an unacceptable threat to America and its allies in the Middle East. Eight years later, NATO projected power across the Mediterranean Sea, toppling the government of Moammar Gadhafi in Libya.


Each move was an extension of American military reach, and many of them signaled the transformation of NATO from a defensive alliance into an occasionally offensive one. With each step, the U.S. and its allies demonstrated a willingness to use military force to challenge and defeat vastly weaker powers across the globe. In doing so, we began constructing what looked more than a little like a rudimentary worldwide police force with the United States at its head.
But there were undeniable downsides.

For one thing, a foreign policy aimed at punishing "evildoers," to invoke former President George W. Bush's language after 9/11, left us with a series of messes on our hands. We became directly responsible for security in places we invaded. And instead of those countries learning to take care of themselves over time, they became dependents, forcing the United States and our allies to extend open-ended internal and external security commitments, with the only alternative being eventual collapse into civil war or dictatorship. We've seen different versions of this scenario unfold on varying time scales in Iraq, Libya, and Afghanistan over the past two decades.

But this isn't the only, or even the worst, drawback to America's approach to foreign policy since the end of the Cold War.
We have been able to fight a series of small (if intractable) wars around the world because, in each case, our opponent has been vastly weaker than we are. But we have also extended implicit security guarantees to places where a strong or rising regional power has competing interests. And we've handled such situations by acting as if we're willing to defend certain countries against formidable military threats when we've never really been prepared to do so.


This approach to conducting foreign policy worked well enough so long as no one called our bluff. Our willingness and ability to project power to the Middle East, South Asia, and North Africa served as supposed evidence of our resolve everywhere.


But our geopolitical rivals are no longer prepared to defer to us in all cases. Putin, for example, looks ready to test the proposition that Russia has far more at stake in its near abroad (in Ukraine as well as in Georgia and Belarus) than we do — and the outcome is quite likely to be decided in his favor. A recent YouGov poll commissioned by the Charles Koch Institute, for example, shows that just 27 percent of Americans would support going to war with Russia if it invades Ukraine. It's not even clear that the European Union would be capable of imposing painful new economic sanctions on Russia in retaliation to an invasion — all of which means Putin may well prevail in his bid to stop NATO expansion in its tracks.

This hasn't prevented some analysts from advocating we extend the bluff further for fear that backing down would embolden China to launch its own test of our willingness to defend Taiwan against an invasion. (Some have even gone so far as to suggest, against all plausibility, that allowing Russia to invade Ukraine without military consequence would destroy NATO altogether and put us on a path to world war.) It would be better to face up honestly to the consequences of bluffing and pull back to lines we really are prepared to defend with the threat of war, and make this resolve abundantly clear to our geopolitical rivals.


We can't guarantee security in Eastern Europe and the Middle East and North Africa and South Asia and East and Southeast Asia. But we can use our still-formidable military and economic might to influence the course of events in select places. What should those places be? The U.S. has done a lot of things around the world since the end of the Cold War. But we haven't made enough of the hard choices that any finite power needs to make.
The crisis in Ukraine should be treated as an opportunity to begin that painful but necessary process of choosing our battles more wisely.
More From...
Picture of Damon Linker
Damon Linker
 

Sooth

Veteran Member
We, the US, really need to take a visible step back. We are in no position militarily, financially, or strategically to engage in push and shove, threaten and be threatened. We cannot even protect our own borders. We do not have the civilian or more critically, the military leadership to engage in anything but training exercises. Shorter version is if we engage over there it may well spread to over here and we will get our butts kicked.

There are no US interests over there worth the loss of one more American life. If the assholes in the White House and the Pentagon can walk away from Afghanistan in what can only be described as a complete and embarrassing rout, we can sure as hell take a diplomatic step back here and possibly even move a missile battery or two away from Russian territory. I am quite sure that Putin does not want to lose any Russian lives but he has to see some concession from NATO meaning the US. Give a little and get back to the table.

Like the article a few pages back, I have seen war. It ain’t pretty. We have lost tens of thousands protecting the world over the past century. Enough. If we have to, we can. For this, we don’t have to.

My opinion means little in the greater scheme of things. I hope someone brings adults back into the room in DC.
 

northern watch

TB Fanatic
Sullivan: Chances That Russia Invades Ukraine "High"

BY TYLER DURDEN
ZERO HEDGE
FRIDAY, JAN 14, 2022 - 11:40 PM

Authored by Dave DeCamp via AntiWar.com,

Continuing the narrative that Russia is planning to invade Ukraine, National Security Advisor Jake Sullivan claimed on Thursday that the threat of a Russian invasion is "high" after days of talks between Western powers and Moscow.

"There is no illusions on the part of any of us who have been dealing with this issue about what the prospects are for potential conflict and potential military escalation by Russia," Sullivan said.


Getty Images


Russia has repeatedly denied that it is planning to invade Ukraine and insists that its military movements in the region are a response to increased US and NATO activity. During talks this week, the US and NATO rejected Russia’s demands for NATO to halt its eastward expansion.

Following a meeting of the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE) that included Russia, the US ambassador to the OSCE also warned of war in Europe. "We’re facing a crisis in European security. The drumbeat of war is sounding loud, and the rhetoric has gotten rather shrill," Ambassador Michael Carpenter told reporters.

Sullivan said the Western talks with Russia this week were "frank and direct" and that the US would now consult with allies on how to proceed. The Kremlin described the meetings as "unsuccessful" and said the two sides were far apart on key issues.

Sullivan said there has yet to be an agreement between the US and Russia on more meetings. But in Moscow, Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Sergey Ryabkov said dialogue between the two powers was always happening at some level. "I must reiterate that dialogue is still underway at many levels and in many directions," he said.

Also on Thursday, Moscow warned against a piece of legislation introduced Wednesday by Senate Democrats that would pave the way for sanctions on Russian President Vladimir Putin and other Russian officials. "We view the appearance of such documents and statements extremely negatively against the background of an ongoing series of negotiations, albeit unsuccessful ones," Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov said.

While no progress was made concerning Ukraine during this week’s flurry of diplomacy, the two sides did agree to eventually hold more talks on arms control and missile deployments.

Sullivan: Chances That Russia Invades Ukraine "High" | ZeroHedge
 

jward

passin' thru
14 Jan, 23:32
US, NATO ready to continue reciprocal dialogue with Russia - US State Department
Secretary of State Antony Blinken spoke with NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg to discuss next steps following the January 12 NATO-Russia Council


WASHINGTON, January 15. /TASS/. The United States and NATO are ready to continue reciprocal dialogue with Moscow, the US Department of State said in a statement, following a phone talk between US Secretary of State Antony Blinken and NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg.
"Secretary of State Antony J. Blinken spoke today with NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg to discuss next steps following the January 12 NATO-Russia Council. The United States and NATO are ready to meet again with Russia and are committed to pursuing continued diplomacy and reciprocal dialogue," US Department of State Spokesperson Ned Price said in a written statement.

On December 17, 2021, the Russian Foreign Ministry released a draft agreement on security guarantees between Russia and the United States and a draft agreement on ensuring the security of Russia and NATO member states. Consultations on the issue took place in Geneva on January 10, followed by a meeting of the Russia-NATO Council in Brussels on January 12 and a session of the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE) Permanent Council in Vienna on January 13.
The West and Kiev have recently been spreading allegations about Russia’s potential ‘invasion’ of Ukraine.

Kremlin Spokesman Dmitry Peskov castigated these claims as "empty and unfounded", serving as a ploy to escalate tensions, pointing out that Russia did not pose any threat whatsoever to anyone. However, Peskov did not rule out the possibility of provocations aimed at justifying such allegations and warned that attempts to use military force to resolve the crisis in southeastern Ukraine would have serious consequences.

 

jward

passin' thru
EndGameWW3
@EndGameWW3

6m

Basically U.S. and NATO are ready to spread their butt cheeks for Putin.
****ing cowards

14 Jan, 23:32
US, NATO ready to continue reciprocal dialogue with Russia - US State Department
Secretary of State Antony Blinken spoke with NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg to discuss next steps following the January 12 NATO-Russia Council


WASHINGTON, January 15. /TASS/. The United States and NATO are ready to continue reciprocal dialogue with Moscow, the US Department of State said in a statement, following a phone talk between US Secretary of State Antony Blinken and NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg.
"Secretary of State Antony J. Blinken spoke today with NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg to discuss next steps following the January 12 NATO-Russia Council. The United States and NATO are ready to meet again with Russia and are committed to pursuing continued diplomacy and reciprocal dialogue," US Department of State Spokesperson Ned Price said in a written statement.

On December 17, 2021, the Russian Foreign Ministry released a draft agreement on security guarantees between Russia and the United States and a draft agreement on ensuring the security of Russia and NATO member states. Consultations on the issue took place in Geneva on January 10, followed by a meeting of the Russia-NATO Council in Brussels on January 12 and a session of the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE) Permanent Council in Vienna on January 13.
The West and Kiev have recently been spreading allegations about Russia’s potential ‘invasion’ of Ukraine.

Kremlin Spokesman Dmitry Peskov castigated these claims as "empty and unfounded", serving as a ploy to escalate tensions, pointing out that Russia did not pose any threat whatsoever to anyone. However, Peskov did not rule out the possibility of provocations aimed at justifying such allegations and warned that attempts to use military force to resolve the crisis in southeastern Ukraine would have serious consequences.

 

Doomer Doug

TB Fanatic
Jward, Vlad the impaler holds all the cards. This isn't about the ukraine any more. It is about the collapse of Imperial America and Pax Americana.

Both china and Russia are kicking us out of their sphere of influence. Russia will have total control of Europa. The US will be GONE, out of NATO and with no military presence at all, no nukes, no troops or ships any where near russia or china.

All this bluster by biden et al means nothing. Biden is abandoning Europe, just like he did Afghanistan.

Game over.
We will crawl and grovel away or VLAD THE IMPALER WILL F$^</<NUKE US. It really is that simple.

This is what the wrath of God looks like in real terms. We have been handed over to our enemies with no redemption possible anymore.
 

Marie

Veteran Member
We, the US, really need to take a visible step back. We are in no position militarily, financially, or strategically to engage in push and shove, threaten and be threatened. We cannot even protect our own borders. We do not have the civilian or more critically, the military leadership to engage in anything but training exercises. Shorter version is if we engage over there it may well spread to over here and we will get our butts kicked.

There are no US interests over there worth the loss of one more American life. If the assholes in the White House and the Pentagon can walk away from Afghanistan in what can only be described as a complete and embarrassing rout, we can sure as hell take a diplomatic step back here and possibly even move a missile battery or two away from Russian territory. I am quite sure that Putin does not want to lose any Russian lives but he has to see some concession from NATO meaning the US. Give a little and get back to the table.

Like the article a few pages back, I have seen war. It ain’t pretty. We have lost tens of thousands protecting the world over the past century. Enough. If we have to, we can. For this, we don’t have to.

My opinion means little in the greater scheme of things. I hope someone brings adults back into the room in DC.
:applaud::applaud::applaud::applaud::applaud:
 

Marie

Veteran Member
I realize Putin is no angel and can be dangerous
BUT I put this whole mess squarely on OUR warmongering administration and the rest of the worthless PTB.
They are cranking thr war machine up and all for covering their own failures and pushing that depopulation agenda. How many of our young men and women will lose their lives for a f'n game of tabletop Risk to entertain these worthless a$$holes. It's all a game and a psychological one at that.
 

MountainBiker

Veteran Member
Even the incidental coverage being given in the media is only Russia vs Ukraine. They aren't suggesting WWIII potential let alone the possibility of that war coming to a town near them soon. Certainly the lack of coverage and tone of the coverage is purposeful so as to not upset the economic interests in the US that want things to just continue per normal.

The "it can't happen here" mindset of most Americans is deeply ingrained. That's understandable given we haven't had war up close and personal since the Civil War, and even that war was almost entirely restricted to the south. Here in New England it is the Rev. War that is embedded in the general psyche, not the Civil War which is something that happened someplace else mostly affecting other people like all our other wars post Rev. War.

Americans as a whole have little concept of what wars really are. Yes some vets know only too well, but they are but a small minority in a culture that only knows war via what they've watched on TV from the comfort of their homes. Heaven help us all.
 

Marie

Veteran Member
Even the incidental coverage being given in the media is only Russia vs Ukraine. They aren't suggesting WWIII potential let alone the possibility of that war coming to a town near them soon. Certainly the lack of coverage and tone of the coverage is purposeful so as to not upset the economic interests in the US that want things to just continue per normal.

The "it can't happen here" mindset of most Americans is deeply ingrained. That's understandable given we haven't had war up close and personal since the Civil War, and even that war was almost entirely restricted to the south. Here in New England it is the Rev. War that is embedded in the general psyche, not the Civil War which is something that happened someplace else mostly affecting other people like all our other wars post Rev. War.

Americans as a whole have little concept of what wars really are. Yes some vets know only too well, but they are but a small minority in a culture that only knows war via what they've watched on TV from the comfort of their homes. Heaven help us all.
Thay may soon get a close and personal view if the bastards keep pushing.
 

naegling62

Veteran Member
Jward, Vlad the impaler holds all the cards. This isn't about the ukraine any more. It is about the collapse of Imperial America and Pax Americana.

Both china and Russia are kicking us out of their sphere of influence. Russia will have total control of Europa. The US will be GONE, out of NATO and with no military presence at all, no nukes, no troops or ships any where near russia or china.

All this bluster by biden et al means nothing. Biden is abandoning Europe, just like he did Afghanistan.

Game over.
We will crawl and grovel away or VLAD THE IMPALER WILL F$^</<NUKE US. It really is that simple.

This is what the wrath of God looks like in real terms. We have been handed over to our enemies with no redemption possible anymore.
An early American would think that scenario might be an improvement.
 

mecoastie

Veteran Member
Quote from this first article linked below: "According to Fagerstedt, the presence in Oskarshamn has no connection with the reports of drones at the city's nuclear power plants."

Looks like things are getting a little interesting in Sweden. Second article explains the drone incident.


.
 

Walrus

Veteran Member
Hopefully they make good on that so many people would freeze to death
Some maps are probably helpful to gain perspective of how dependent Europe is for Russian gas. I'll try to copy and paste but the images may be too big to post, but I'll include links as well.

This first map was done in 2014 when Nordstream II was still under construction. It shows the impact to Europe when supplies get restricted. Nordstream II now completed and is the one which Bai-Den approved of just after he shut down the Keystone pipeline here. :fgr: <-- for Bai-Den

https://whowhatwhy.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/untitled2.png

Yep, hunch was right; image was too large to post. Just click the link to study it. ( have opened a branch office and am accepting suggestions to help)

This second pipeline map is a bit more inclusive as it shows pipelines from Norway, UK (including the southern North Sea gas fields of Great Britain as well as the Dutch fields), Algeria, Tunisia, Turkey (the so-called Trans-Anatolian pipeline which comes from Uzbekistan and Turkmenistan) and some of the interconnections within Europe. Turkstream is a pipeline which is, as far as I know, not yet complete but transits the Black Sea from Russia into the Turkey/Bulgaria border.

The one I'm most familiar with is the Southstream pipeline which flows to Romania and Bulgaria through Ukraine and continues on to Serbia, et al. The other pipelines of note are the Yamal and Brotherhood pipelines - going to various places in central Europe but they both transit Ukraine as well as Southstream.

You'll notice that Nordstream II is largely undersea as it enters the Baltic Sea just at the Russia/Finland border and comes ashore into Germany, east of their border with Denmark.

https://www.cleanenergywire.org/sit...eet/european-gas-supply-diw.jpg?itok=LciHX6OX

1642261195885.png
 

CaryC

Has No Life - Lives on TB
Thay may soon get a close and personal view if the bastards keep pushing.
While I can agree with that assessment when it comes to ICBM's etc. but troops on the ground would be a different story, and don't think Russian troops on the ground in the US is even in the cards.

If Russia will put troops on the ground here, the first thing that will happen is "all sins are forgiven" and the country will come together. Nobody will give a crap about Biden being President, it will be the Russians we will have eyes on.

Second its not just the Army they will be facing but civilians as well, organized or not.

Third, logistics will also be a big killer for Russians. Just like Russia used a burnt/scorched earth policy while retreating and denying the Germans local food, and supplies, so it will happen here as well. Everything will have to be supplied by air or boat.

IMHO
 

Walrus

Veteran Member
For whatever reason Sweden is seriously reinforcing Gotland. A ferry full of armed troops at midnight? That is a fast and heavy move likely to be 200 or more.
Something is going on.
Take a gander at the route of Nordstream II and see if that improves the clarity. Remember that Sweden is NOT part of NATO.
 

CaryC

Has No Life - Lives on TB
Just picked up an unprecedented and supposed release of statement from "US Intelligence" Russia is setting up for a false flag attack on their own assets by Russian Special Ops units in order to justify moving troops into Ukraine. This came out of "Business Insider" about 9 hours ago. The source other than "US Intelligence" was not cited.
If our assets are watching this that close and the Russians actually do this, my guess is that this would be a definite causus belli.n It looks like the preps many of us put in place are going to be very useful very soon.
G-d help us all.
Earlier I poo, pooed the idea that our US Intelligence perceives this as happening. Because I just don't believe our INTELLIGENCE. Someone replied with even a blind squirrel finds a nut, which that is true. But I don't buy our INTELLIGENCE as providing true facts. All of our INTELLIGENCE has done is provide "facts" to support a narrative. And that is all they have done. In case after case.

The false flag is something Germany used to invade Poland, and everyone knows it. AND now we watch everything by Sat. and Russia doesn't know this? Come on.

I see it as a possibility as just a narrative being put forth, by our side to justify, supporting Ukraine with even more military arms and "ADVISORS".

I wouldn't put it past our INTELLIGENCE to shoot our own advisors and blame the Russians, just to get a war started.

I don't trust our intelligence any more than I would a Russian.
 

Walrus

Veteran Member
Earlier I poo, pooed the idea that our US Intelligence perceives this as happening. Because I just don't believe our INTELLIGENCE. Someone replied with even a blind squirrel finds a nut, which that is true. But I don't buy our INTELLIGENCE as providing true facts. All of our INTELLIGENCE has done is provide "facts" to support a narrative. And that is all they have done. In case after case.

The false flag is something Germany used to invade Poland, and everyone knows it. AND now we watch everything by Sat. and Russia doesn't know this? Come on.

I see it as a possibility as just a narrative being put forth, by our side to justify, supporting Ukraine with even more military arms and "ADVISORS".

I wouldn't put it past our INTELLIGENCE to shoot our own advisors and blame the Russians, just to get a war started.

I don't trust our intelligence any more than I would a Russian.
As much as it pains this patriot to admit this, I trust what the Russians are saying more than I trust our weaponized-and-completely-politicized intelligence apparatus.
 

CaryC

Has No Life - Lives on TB
The other thing Alfaman is I judge Putin to be thinking big and going for Gotland Island is EXACTLY the kind of strategic move he would make, especially since the Swedes clearly think so and deployed combat forces to defend Gotland Island. Not sure why they did that, but if Putin really is making a move then this is in play.
You do realize that this is the same move as started the Civil War?

Ft. Sumpter sat in the middle of Charleston Harbor, and could easily control or bomb ships coming into the harbor, as Gotland does. Effectively blockading Charleston. Even as Sweden could blockade Russia through ownership of Gotland.

After 4 months of talks to get the Yankees off of South Carolina soil, now a separate nation, and Lincoln agreeing not to re-enforce the troops there, he did, causing S. Carolina to fire the first shot.

So Putin's move, if true to take Gotland, would be very effective. Since NATO would move to prevent that from happening and hemming in Russia and it's access to the Baltic Sea.
 

Walrus

Veteran Member
Cary, I like your thoughts about the similarity of Ft. Sumter and Gotland, but I must ask: Why would NATO intervene on behalf of a non-NATO country - especially one which has denigrated NATO through the years while touting its independent status?

Of course, in times like this from Europe's POV, short memories (like the overwhelming majority of American voters) can be useful.
 

Sweetwood

Senior Member
While I can agree with that assessment when it comes to ICBM's etc. but troops on the ground would be a different story, and don't think Russian troops on the ground in the US is even in the cards.

If Russia will put troops on the ground here, the first thing that will happen is "all sins are forgiven" and the country will come together. Nobody will give a crap about Biden being President, it will be the Russians we will have eyes on.

Second its not just the Army they will be facing but civilians as well, organized or not.

Third, logistics will also be a big killer for Russians. Just like Russia used a burnt/scorched earth policy while retreating and denying the Germans local food, and supplies, so it will happen here as well. Everything will have to be supplied by air or boat.

IMHO
If the Russians are as smart as I think they are they will know they don’t have to put troops on the ground, at least conventional troops. Like you pointed out it may be counter productive. A smart adversary would use the already fractured facade of American and further fracture it, perhaps to the point of collapsing. American can be defeated simply by causing more supply shortages, power shortages, various infrastructure sabotage, and stirring the pot of racial discontent. I’m sad to say my beloved county is ripe for collapse with little enemy involvement.
 

CaryC

Has No Life - Lives on TB
Cary, I like your thoughts about the similarity of Ft. Sumter and Gotland, but I must ask: Why would NATO intervene on behalf of a non-NATO country - especially one which has denigrated NATO through the years while touting its independent status?

Of course, in times like this from Europe's POV, short memories (like the overwhelming majority of American voters) can be useful.
Thanks, but just my own thoughts.

Ownership of Gotland could be Stategic to Russia, as they have to get close to it to get out, by ship, as in shipping men and supplies. They could use the ports in Keliningrad, but still that does limit them, since it is close to Poland.

And going on a war footing, I would think having that island in your pocket, rather than a NATO friendly, would be desirable. From a Russian viewpoint.

From a NATO viewpoint, I think the same interests, or reverse interests (keeping Russia hemmed in) even being friendly with a non-NATO country.

Heck if I was a general in the US, I'd take the island, and worry about whose it is after the war. LOL

With the seeming coming war though being in Ukraine, I'm not sure why Russia would want Gotland since they don't need it to convey troops and supplies. It's just something they would have to defend, without providing an advantage.

I guess they might think they would need to get out to support the Black Sea Fleet, but they should be big enough to take on any intruders.

All speculation on my part.
 

mecoastie

Veteran Member
You do realize that this is the same move as started the Civil War?

Ft. Sumpter sat in the middle of Charleston Harbor, and could easily control or bomb ships coming into the harbor, as Gotland does. Effectively blockading Charleston. Even as Sweden could blockade Russia through ownership of Gotland.

After 4 months of talks to get the Yankees off of South Carolina soil, now a separate nation, and Lincoln agreeing not to re-enforce the troops there, he did, causing S. Carolina to fire the first shot.

So Putin's move, if true to take Gotland, would be very effective. Since NATO would move to prevent that from happening and hemming in Russia and it's access to the Baltic Sea.


Putins challenge with the Baltic is he is surrounded by NATO and other enemy countries. The capture and control of Gotland by the Russians would create the same issue for NATO as SC had with the US control of Ft Sumter. The control that they can control a lot of the movement of NATO in the Baltic. NATO still controls the exit thru the straits but Russia could make working inside the Baltic difficult.
 

adgal

Veteran Member
With the seeming coming war though being in Ukraine, I'm not sure why Russia would want Gotland since they don't need it to convey troops and supplies. It's just something they would have to defend, without providing an advantage.
@Walrus suggested it might have something to do with the pipeline that runs right by it.
 

Walrus

Veteran Member
I am hearing reports from a source that I cannot name as per Dennis that in Kyiv, Ukraine cold war-era bomb shelters are being given beds, air purifiers and a fresh coat of paint .
Interesting from several points of view, isn't it?

At least they're making them livable with the air purifiers and paint - I can imagine how musty and moldy those have become in the past 30 years. The other thing is the timing; the Ukrainians obviously feel - regardless of the possibility of them being necessary - that there's time to do these sorts of things.
 

northern watch

TB Fanatic
Interesting from several points of view, isn't it?

At least they're making them livable with the air purifiers and paint - I can imagine how musty and moldy those have become in the past 30 years. The other thing is the timing; the Ukrainians obviously feel - regardless of the possibility of them being necessary - that there's time to do these sorts of things.
I can imagine the panic if all sudden Homeland Security tells US cities to refurnish US cold war bomb shelters.
 

WTSR

Veteran Member

All three Russian Baltic Fleet Ropucha-class heavy landing ships departed Baltiysk during this afternoon and evening
 
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