ENVR Atlantic Ocean current could collapse soon. How you may endure dramatic weather changes.

mzkitty

I give up.

Oh yay !! More stuff to worry about............. sigh..........

Atlantic Ocean current could collapse soon. How you may endure dramatic weather changes.​

Updated Tue, July 25, 2023 at 12:36 PM EDT

Now this could be something to really worry about.

The Atlantic Meridional Overturning Circulation (AMOC) – a large system of ocean currents that carry warm water from the tropics into the North Atlantic – could collapse by the middle of the century, or possibly any time from 2025 onward, because of human-caused climate change, a study published Tuesday suggests.

Such a collapse could trigger rapid weather and climate changes in the U.S., Europe and elsewhere. If it were to happen, it could bring about an ice age in Europe and sea-level rise in cities such as Boston and New York, as well as more potent storms and hurricanes along the East Coast.

It also could lead to drastically reduced amounts of rain and snowfall across the central and western U.S., the study's authors say.

Earlier studies about the AMOC collapse drew comparisons to the scientifically inaccurate 2004 disaster movie "The Day After Tomorrow," which used such an ocean current shutdown as the premise of the film.

"We estimate a collapse of the AMOC to occur around mid-century under the current scenario of future emissions," the study authors write.

The AMOC collapse is one of several dangerous climate "tipping points" scientists say are possible because of climate change.

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What is the AMOC?​

“The Atlantic Meridional Overturning Circulation really is one of our planet’s key circulation systems,” said Niklas Boers from the Potsdam Institute for Climate Impact Research in Germany, the author of an earlier study on the topic.

The AMOC is a crucial conveyor belt for ocean water and air, which creates weather. Warm, salty water moves north from the tropics along the Gulf Stream off the U.S. East Coast to the North Atlantic, where it cools, sinks and heads south.

The faster it moves, the more water is turned over from warm surface to cool depths.

The cycle keeps northern Europe several degrees warmer than it would otherwise be and brings colder water to the coast of North America.

Studies in 2018 and 2021 have found that a collapse of the AMOC is possible at some point this century.

What's new in this study?​

Using new statistical tools and ocean temperature data from the past 150 years, researchers calculated that the AMOC will stop – with 95% certainty – between 2025 and 2095. "Using new and improved statistical tools, we’ve made calculations that provide a more robust estimate of when a collapse is most likely to occur, something we had not been able to do before," said study co-author Susanne Ditlevsen, a professor at the University of Copenhagen.

The researchers' prediction is based on observations of early warning signals ocean currents exhibit as they become unstable.

The calculations contradict the message of the latest Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change report, in which an abrupt change in the AMOC is considered "unlikely" this century.

"Our result underscores the importance of reducing global greenhouse gas emissions as soon as possible," said study co-author Peter Ditlevsen, also from the University of Copenhagen.

How could climate change cause the AMOC to collapse?​

Study co-authors Peter and Susanne Ditlevsen explained to USA TODAY how the collapse of the AMOC could occur: "Greenhouse gas emissions cause global warming, which speeds up the melting of Greenland ice. The melted freshwater entering the North Atlantic can then disrupt the AMOC, potentially causing major climate disruptions.

"When the increased meltwater from Greenland enters the North Atlantic, it's freshwater, which is lighter than the salty seawater around it," the Ditlevsens said. "This excess freshwater can disrupt the normal sinking of the salty water, weakening or even shutting down the AMOC. If the AMOC collapses, it can have far-reaching effects on weather patterns and ocean currents, leading to significant climate changes."

What do others say?​

Experts not involved in this study offer mixed reviews of its conclusions. Michael Mann, of the University of Pennsylvania, said, "I’m not sure the authors bring much to the table other than a fancy statistical method. History is littered with flawed predictions based on fancy statistical methods; sometimes they’re too fancy for their own good."

But Stefan Rahmstorf, a climate scientist at the Potsdam Institute for Climate Impact Research in Germany, told USA TODAY that "a single study provides limited evidence, but when multiple approaches lead to similar conclusions, this must be taken very seriously. Especially when we're talking about a risk that we really want to rule out with 99.9% certainty. The scientific evidence now is that we can't even rule out crossing a tipping point already in the next decade or two.

"There is still large uncertainty where the tipping point of the AMOC is, but the new study adds to the evidence that it is much closer than we thought just a few years ago."

The study was published Tuesday in the peer-reviewed British journal Nature Communications.

Contributing: The Associated Press; Elizabeth Weise, USA TODAY


This article originally appeared on USA TODAY: Is Atlantic Ocean current near collapse?
 

fi103r

Veteran Member

Oh yay !! More stuff to worry about............. sigh..........

Atlantic Ocean current could collapse soon. How you may endure dramatic weather changes.​

Updated Tue, July 25, 2023 at 12:36 PM EDT

Now this could be something to really worry about.

The Atlantic Meridional Overturning Circulation (AMOC) – a large system of ocean currents that carry warm water from the tropics into the North Atlantic – could collapse by the middle of the century, or possibly any time from 2025 onward, because of human-caused climate change, a study published Tuesday suggests.

Such a collapse could trigger rapid weather and climate changes in the U.S., Europe and elsewhere. If it were to happen, it could bring about an ice age in Europe and sea-level rise in cities such as Boston and New York, as well as more potent storms and hurricanes along the East Coast.

It also could lead to drastically reduced amounts of rain and snowfall across the central and western U.S., the study's authors say.

Earlier studies about the AMOC collapse drew comparisons to the scientifically inaccurate 2004 disaster movie "The Day After Tomorrow," which used such an ocean current shutdown as the premise of the film.

"We estimate a collapse of the AMOC to occur around mid-century under the current scenario of future emissions," the study authors write.

The AMOC collapse is one of several dangerous climate "tipping points" scientists say are possible because of climate change.

View attachment 426439

What is the AMOC?​

“The Atlantic Meridional Overturning Circulation really is one of our planet’s key circulation systems,” said Niklas Boers from the Potsdam Institute for Climate Impact Research in Germany, the author of an earlier study on the topic.

The AMOC is a crucial conveyor belt for ocean water and air, which creates weather. Warm, salty water moves north from the tropics along the Gulf Stream off the U.S. East Coast to the North Atlantic, where it cools, sinks and heads south.

The faster it moves, the more water is turned over from warm surface to cool depths.

The cycle keeps northern Europe several degrees warmer than it would otherwise be and brings colder water to the coast of North America.

Studies in 2018 and 2021 have found that a collapse of the AMOC is possible at some point this century.

What's new in this study?​

Using new statistical tools and ocean temperature data from the past 150 years, researchers calculated that the AMOC will stop – with 95% certainty – between 2025 and 2095. "Using new and improved statistical tools, we’ve made calculations that provide a more robust estimate of when a collapse is most likely to occur, something we had not been able to do before," said study co-author Susanne Ditlevsen, a professor at the University of Copenhagen.

The researchers' prediction is based on observations of early warning signals ocean currents exhibit as they become unstable.

The calculations contradict the message of the latest Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change report, in which an abrupt change in the AMOC is considered "unlikely" this century.

"Our result underscores the importance of reducing global greenhouse gas emissions as soon as possible," said study co-author Peter Ditlevsen, also from the University of Copenhagen.

How could climate change cause the AMOC to collapse?​

Study co-authors Peter and Susanne Ditlevsen explained to USA TODAY how the collapse of the AMOC could occur: "Greenhouse gas emissions cause global warming, which speeds up the melting of Greenland ice. The melted freshwater entering the North Atlantic can then disrupt the AMOC, potentially causing major climate disruptions.

"When the increased meltwater from Greenland enters the North Atlantic, it's freshwater, which is lighter than the salty seawater around it," the Ditlevsens said. "This excess freshwater can disrupt the normal sinking of the salty water, weakening or even shutting down the AMOC. If the AMOC collapses, it can have far-reaching effects on weather patterns and ocean currents, leading to significant climate changes."

What do others say?​

Experts not involved in this study offer mixed reviews of its conclusions. Michael Mann, of the University of Pennsylvania, said, "I’m not sure the authors bring much to the table other than a fancy statistical method. History is littered with flawed predictions based on fancy statistical methods; sometimes they’re too fancy for their own good."

But Stefan Rahmstorf, a climate scientist at the Potsdam Institute for Climate Impact Research in Germany, told USA TODAY that "a single study provides limited evidence, but when multiple approaches lead to similar conclusions, this must be taken very seriously. Especially when we're talking about a risk that we really want to rule out with 99.9% certainty. The scientific evidence now is that we can't even rule out crossing a tipping point already in the next decade or two.

"There is still large uncertainty where the tipping point of the AMOC is, but the new study adds to the evidence that it is much closer than we thought just a few years ago."

The study was published Tuesday in the peer-reviewed British journal Nature Communications.

Contributing: The Associated Press; Elizabeth Weise, USA TODAY


This article originally appeared on USA TODAY: Is Atlantic Ocean current near collapse?
OH Yes, it is real, and a higher probability per Wood Hole Oceanograpgic research on the trigger ‘Beaufort Gyre’ this could get very real very fast. as in Viking v Greenland frozen out in less than a decade.
 

DFENZ

Contributing Member
There must be a flaw in the human genome. We're always needing something to worry about that usually requires more money and humans to sacrifice to avoid the inevitable doom.

It's just the latest version of 'the sky is falling, tigers are at the cave entrance, famine, global cooling, nuclear winter, Y2K, ozone hole, global warming'.... and on and on.

Yet, here we are.
 

packyderms_wife

Neither here nor there.
And then there's this! The eruption of Tonga caused an increase of water vapor in the upper atmosphere.

 

Melodi

Disaster Cat
Actually, no, this isn't Greenie Nuts or Climate Change Porn. That said, media paymasters tried to make it into climate porn and claim this is due to man-made warming. I noticed the also mentioned the Movie the Day After Tomorrow but informed the book that inspired it - The Coming Global Super Storm, which is a bit dated now, was based on some scientific evidence.

It is true that when the North Atlantic Ossocilation goes "South" (literally), usually due to the melting off of Greenland, Europe gets colder. It is also true that scientists were in shock when they managed to get 100,000 years' worth of Ice Cores (which can tell weather patterns in a similar way to tree rings) to discover that not only does every single full Ice Age have a few years (or even decades) of intensely hot weather before it hits, but they can come on very suddenly, in as little as one to five years!

Not only that, but every period of significant cooling, like The Little Ice Age in the 14th century (which lasted with three slightly warmer breaks until the 19th century), is preceded by a warming period (aka The Medival Warm Period from about 1,000 AD to the about 1310 AD). Before that, a little Ice Age during the "Dark Ages" started around the Fall of the Western Roman Empire.

During all those periods, there is evidence that the warm happened when the North Atlantic Oscillation was far to the North (the Romans had vineyards in Britannia, and the Irish may have had vineyards as well) when it dropped down closer to Spain. Everything in Europe and much of North America (including Boston and the East Coast) get cold.

I've expected this to happen in my lifetime for two decades because the NOA has been weakening for about 20 years. However, this probably won't be a full ice age (though there is no way to tell), but more likely, another cold period that will drive the Powers that Be nuts. This isn't the first article I've seen along these lines. There were a few here in Europe earlier this Summer before the big heat wave and the switch to all global warming doom all the time.

But I am pretty sure they are now trying to "prep the narrative" that you evil meat-eating, carbon-using peons made this happen! I wonder how people caused it in the early 1300s?....
 

packyderms_wife

Neither here nor there.
Actually, no, this isn't Greenie Nuts or Climate Change Porn. That said, media paymasters tried to make it into climate porn and claim this is due to man-made warming. I noticed the also mentioned the Movie the Day After Tomorrow but informed the book that inspired it - The Coming Global Super Storm, which is a bit dated now, was based on some scientific evidence.

It is true that when the North Atlantic Ossocilation goes "South" (literally), usually due to the melting off of Greenland, Europe gets colder. It is also true that scientists were in shock when they managed to get 100,000 years' worth of Ice Cores (which can tell weather patterns in a similar way to tree rings) to discover that not only does every single full Ice Age have a few years (or even decades) of intensely hot weather before it hits, but they can come on very suddenly, in as little as one to five years!

Not only that, but every period of significant cooling, like The Little Ice Age in the 14th century (which lasted with three slightly warmer breaks until the 19th century), is preceded by a warming period (aka The Medival Warm Period from about 1,000 AD to the about 1310 AD). Before that, a little Ice Age during the "Dark Ages" started around the Fall of the Western Roman Empire.

During all those periods, there is evidence that the warm happened when the North Atlantic Oscillation was far to the North (the Romans had vineyards in Britannia, and the Irish may have had vineyards as well) when it dropped down closer to Spain. Everything in Europe and much of North America (including Boston and the East Coast) get cold.

I've expected this to happen in my lifetime for two decades because the NOA has been weakening for about 20 years. However, this probably won't be a full ice age (though there is no way to tell), but more likely, another cold period that will drive the Powers that Be nuts. This isn't the first article I've seen along these lines. There were a few here in Europe earlier this Summer before the big heat wave and the switch to all global warming doom all the time.

But I am pretty sure they are now trying to "prep the narrative" that you evil meat-eating, carbon-using peons made this happen! I wonder how people caused it in the early 1300s?....

The Sun is in the throes of a micronova, which happens about every 12,000 years, and the last major solar event that happened about 6,000 years ago covered the earth in water! So in a nut shell none of this matters, it's all going to burn anyway, cause nothing survives a nova, not even a micro nova. The poles will flip, there will be no place to hide.
 

packyderms_wife

Neither here nor there.
The AMOC has collapsed before, and with significant effects. Long before humans were producing CO2 at scale.

It's going to collapse again, and we need to prepare for that, not kick ourselves in the nuts as a species over this false causation.

Everyone needs to go check out Ben over at SuspiciousObservers on YT. He has scientific data to back what he's talking about.
 

TheSearcher

Are you sure about that?
Actually, no, this isn't Greenie Nuts or Climate Change Porn. That said, media paymasters tried to make it into climate porn and claim this is due to man-made warming. I noticed the also mentioned the Movie the Day After Tomorrow but informed the book that inspired it - The Coming Global Super Storm, which is a bit dated now, was based on some scientific evidence.

It is true that when the North Atlantic Ossocilation goes "South" (literally), usually due to the melting off of Greenland, Europe gets colder. It is also true that scientists were in shock when they managed to get 100,000 years' worth of Ice Cores (which can tell weather patterns in a similar way to tree rings) to discover that not only does every single full Ice Age have a few years (or even decades) of intensely hot weather before it hits, but they can come on very suddenly, in as little as one to five years!

Not only that, but every period of significant cooling, like The Little Ice Age in the 14th century (which lasted with three slightly warmer breaks until the 19th century), is preceded by a warming period (aka The Medival Warm Period from about 1,000 AD to the about 1310 AD). Before that, a little Ice Age during the "Dark Ages" started around the Fall of the Western Roman Empire.

During all those periods, there is evidence that the warm happened when the North Atlantic Oscillation was far to the North (the Romans had vineyards in Britannia, and the Irish may have had vineyards as well) when it dropped down closer to Spain. Everything in Europe and much of North America (including Boston and the East Coast) get cold.

I've expected this to happen in my lifetime for two decades because the NOA has been weakening for about 20 years. However, this probably won't be a full ice age (though there is no way to tell), but more likely, another cold period that will drive the Powers that Be nuts. This isn't the first article I've seen along these lines. There were a few here in Europe earlier this Summer before the big heat wave and the switch to all global warming doom all the time.

But I am pretty sure they are now trying to "prep the narrative" that you evil meat-eating, carbon-using peons made this happen! I wonder how people caused it in the early 1300s?....
Excellent. That's the danger that comes with what the greenie weenies have done in twisting the science.

This isn't fear porn, it's a well-documented climatic cycle that occurs with impressive regularity.
 

Melodi

Disaster Cat
OK, my draft appears to have been eaten. I wanted to say there is also a Volcanic Aspect to the cooling periods which Packy mentioned. However, for some reason, science doesn't understand yet, cooling periods almost always accompany a combination of NAO slowdowns (and moves), increased volcanic activity, and a lower to zero number of sunspots. The Chicken and Egg question is hard to figure out here. There are also signs that where the earth is on its axis and even its differently shaped orbits around the sun after thousands of years MAY affect the outcome of the Little Ice Age or the Real Ice Age. Now add the less understood long-term effects of the El Nino/La Nina/La Nada yearly cycles in the Pacific, which affect the Southern Pacific Ossolation, and you get a seriously completed headache.

We know that a major volcanic eruption can cool the weather for up to two years (the year 536 AD is called The Worst Year to Be Alive for a reason). Still, in that case, it was around the start of a cooling period anyway, so things kept getting gradually colder. However, Mt Pinatubo's recent eruption in the 1990s cooled stuff for two years, and the gradual heating pattern continued.

But to me, the scary thing was learning that even full-on ice ages can start as little as five years and possibly even after one horrifying season (hence the book The Coming Global Superstorm). That's unusual, but the Ice Cores show it can happen.

Again, all people can do is adapt by moving out of the way or using technologies like the discovery of Fire and hiding clothing to survive. Not doom porn but a cycle that has happened dozens of times in human history. If the Earth decides it is time to do this, no amount of Carbon Credits will stop it either.
 

Quiet Man

Nothing unreal exists
Given that the Controllers have been scaring us with failed predictions of flooding coasts, melting icecaps, desertification and the like since the 50s, I would say that the bigger concern is the effect of a collapse of monetary systems globally.
 

Hacker

Computer Hacking Pirate
'Climate change' is all BS. However, the year 2025 - 2040 is about the time when the Earth's poles will possibly flip. You can find much more info on this by following suspiciousobservers channel on youtube.

Here's a discussion:


R/T: about 16 minutes.
 

Melodi

Disaster Cat
Excellent. That's the danger that comes with what the greenie weenies have done in twisting the science.

This isn't fear porn, it's a well-documented climatic cycle that occurs with impressive regularity.
One of my significant concerns has been that throwing everything remotely connected to having a clean, pollution-free (or as free as possible) planet and learning to live in a remotely sustainable way (in a real sense) will if things take a sudden turn to the cold side that the public will throw the baby out with the bathwater.

I'm old enough to remember rivers so polluted they caught on fire and the damage from old silver and lead mines in Colorado. No one wants to live in a sewer. I also think it is essential to do our best as humans to prevent the mass extinction of animals (in as much as we can) but not use that as an excuse to avoid all technology, either.

As I said, I think the Powers that Be see what may be about to happen and are in panic mode. On the one hand, here in Europe, we are getting a constant pounding of All Global Warming All the Time now that the heat wave has started. But before that, during the early Spring, we were getting a few articles about this potential cooling period. There was even one hilarious article I nearly posted in the Irish Press about how global warming was still happening even though Ireland may get colder.
 
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TheSearcher

Are you sure about that?
That's how I see it. We should avoid more Love Canals, burning rivers, Superfund sites, and so forth. That's very different from labeling one half of all animals' respiration metabolism as a danger to the planet. It's definitely bad to focus so hard on blame (real or imaginary) that we get bit by the tiger.
 

Melodi

Disaster Cat
Given that the Controllers have been scaring us with failed predictions of flooding coasts, melting icecaps, desertification and the like since the 50s, I would say that the bigger concern is the effect of a collapse of monetary systems globally.
The Great Famine of the 1320s, followed by the Black Death in the 1340s, were affected by the on-coming Little Ice. The famine was caused by it, and more people probably died of the plague because they were already weakened from it (that's a theory). The result by the End of the Century was the most significant Economic and Social upheaval of the previous thousand years or so.

It is part of the basis for the novels Nightwolf and I wrote, set in the 1360s and 70s. Weather patterns and natural disasters can drive historical and Economic Cycles. The collapse of the North Atlantic Oscillation in the early 1300s resulted in massive crop failures and famine so great people thought God had left the Earth, and that was before the Black Death. We don't hear much about it only because the Black Death finished off one-third to one-half of Europe. But it probably raged through Europe (and Asia) because of the climate shift in Asia that brought the rats back out in force.

I am not saying this will cause the collapse of monetary systems but it has before, at least in Europe (the Fall of the Western Roman Empire Urban Economy using money and again in the 1340s).
 

TheSearcher

Are you sure about that?
Yawn... Will put this dire concern in the pidgeon hole next to the eruption of the Yellow Stone, EEEMMMPPP! and killer asteroids. Could they happen? Statistically, sure. Am I worried about it? No.
It WILL happen. Maybe not for you, but for somebody. It would be humane to try getting things together for that certain but hard-to-date event, even if it's for those that come after us.
 

Melodi

Disaster Cat
Yawn... Will put this dire concern in the pidgeon hole next to the eruption of the Yellow Stone, EEEMMMPPP! and killer asteroids. Could they happen? Statistically, sure. Am I worried about it? No.
Yellowstone has yet to erupt for something like 600,000 years in a big way. The Little Ice Age lasted until about 1850. I'm a lot more concerned about another significant temperature shock. It doesn't take an entire Ice Age to destroy crops, cause famines, economic collapses, and wars for resources. We do show the growing breakdown of the old system and the growing wars and violence in Europe after the Black Death in the novels.
 

Quiet Man

Nothing unreal exists
The Great Famine of the 1320s, followed by the Black Death in the 1340s, were affected by the on-coming Little Ice. The famine was caused by it, and more people probably died of the plague because they were already weakened from it (that's a theory). The result by the End of the Century was the most significant Economic and Social upheaval of the previous thousand years or so.

It is part of the basis for the novels Nightwolf and I wrote, set in the 1360s and 70s. Weather patterns and natural disasters can drive historical and Economic Cycles. The collapse of the North Atlantic Oscillation in the early 1300s resulted in massive crop failures and famine so great people thought God had left the Earth, and that was before the Black Death. We don't hear much about it only because the Black Death finished off one-third to one-half of Europe. But it probably raged through Europe (and Asia) because of the climate shift in Asia that brought the rats back out in force.

I am not saying this will cause the collapse of monetary systems but it has before, at least in Europe (the Fall of the Western Roman Empire Urban Economy using money and again in the 1340s).
I wouldn't disagree with any of this.

I do think:
  • The modern 'Climate Change' narrative (i.e. anthropomorphic/man-caused) is a complete hoax, replete with faked-up 'science', scientists, models, statistics and data. It's an element designed to achieve goals of the Controllers. I'm wary of most of these 'studies'. Some must be based on good science and data, but most look to be part of the propaganda.
  • Should we try to be good stewards of the land? Absolutely.
  • The climate does change; often radically (at all levels of scale). There's little we can do about this, other than try to anticipate and be prepared. I think that we know that global cooling or even glaciation can come-on extremely rapidly (with huge societal impact). Many believe that ice ages come regularly and frequently in terms of geologic time. How many societies, like ours, have come and then disappeared below the ice? Probably many. Funny that they are systematically taking-away our ability to use energy.
  • The Controllers do seem to be in the process of crashing our societal systems of support, which generally hinges on our monetary (and energy) systems. That concerns me more than the above as it seems a near-term certainty with drastic impact.
 
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