REL GENRL Which religions are cults?

[Dennis Olson]

Um, every time anyone votes on the poll (or ANY poll), the poll thread goes back to the top. The forum software has been doing this for about 7 years.

 

[Dobbin]

Beat me to it by milliseconds Dennis.

I think what is happening is every time someone completes the survey, it resets the thread. No posting required.

Joe

I feel better. Thanks.

Joe

 

[bad_karma00]

True Christianity never seeks to force the belief in Christ upon another. God has given mankind free will to choose. Christians have a mandate, for lack of a better word, to teach the gospel. Once that is done, the listener has to decide whether he/she will follow, or not. Those who would FORCE others to follow Christ are missing the entire point of His mission.

I don't usually attach labels to others. I feel it's totally beyond my pay grade to judge the condition of another's soul. That's for Him to decide. I just try to follow what He teaches, and teach others who wish to learn. That, IMO, is true Christianity. Teaching the truth, in love.

 

[ainitfunny]

Personally, I think most people have issues with organized religion because they do not want to be accountable to any other PERSON on Earth for their words and deeds nor do they want to shoulder the duties and obligations such a church membership requires.

It is far more comfortable and conducive to accommodating our favorite sins to claim one's self ONLY accountable to God, and most practitioners of this "unanswerable to anyone but God" rationalization think ("if there IS really a God").

But this "spiritual dodge" actually CONTRADICTS the expressed will of God in Scripture. "Loner Christians" deliberately removing and alienating themselves from the Body of Christ is not an option scripture endorses.

That your human shepherds on earth will personally be fallible men, imperfect, some evil, prone to mistakes should be patently obvious. Scripture contains more than enough references to assure us that God did indeed intend for his Church to be an organized one. God is not the author of chaos, but of ORDER. Of course I have to say, (to counter the idiots "straw man" argument) that YES the faith and salvation is a PERSONAL relationship between the individual and God, BUT NOT OBVIATING or substituting for God's organized church.

God VERY HIGHLY INTERVENED AND DICTATED THE MOST MUNDANE ASPECTS of the JEWISH religion HE formed.
Jesus did NOT condemn that 'ORGANIZED" religion, it's existence or faithful practice, but ONLY how it had strayed from the truth and intent of God.

 

[OddOne]

Here's a thought to mentally chew on:

Religion's purpose for being is to prepare the faithful for the time when their faith, not their religion, will either see them through the dark times to come, or cause or allow them to succumb to the darkness. We have to render an accounting before Jesus Christ as God's appointed Judge on an individual basis, and that accounting won't be about your professed religion, it'll be entirely about your faith and the decisions and choices you made up to that point. By way of scriptural example, in Matthew 7:22-24, Jesus implies that folks that claim to follow him aren't automatically "righteous," and plainly states that many folks who think they're in good standing will be rejected outright.

Religion is there to prepare you for that event, but won't help you get through it. When the time comes, you will stand for what you believe, on your own. You might want to choose wisely while there's time for it.

 

[optimistic pessimist]

Well said, Ain't. You are so right about the "Loner Christian" issue. I see this as very ingrained sadly, in American culture as a whole.

 

[Publius]

They all have one thing common! They all want your money and some call it "Tithing", But originally Tithing was to be food and forms of money was forbidden as an offering for the tithing.

 

[Dennis Olson]

oO, how dare you provide evidence that conflicts with the "born agains" who believe that just because they accepted Christ, they can now coast straight to Heaven regardless of what they do on Earth for the rest of their lives. Heresy sir!!!

 

[FarOut]

My opinion only: any religion can be a cult if the way the people practice that religion prevents them from seeing others as being as worthy of compassion as themselves. Also, other beliefs besides what we call "religion" can become cults; examples are Communism and Environmentalism, when they elevate their goals above the worth of the individual.

OddOne said:

Religion's purpose for being is to prepare the faithful for the time when their faith, not their religion, will either see them through the dark times to come, or cause or allow them to succumb to the darkness.

Religion is there to prepare you for that event, but won't help you get through it. When the time comes, you will stand for what you believe, on your own. You might want to choose wisely while there's time for it.

Wise words.

 

[blueridge]

According to the dictionary, all religions are cults:

Definition of CULT
1
: formal religious veneration : worship
2
: a system of religious beliefs and ritual; also : its body of adherents

One also might see all religions as being somewhat OCCULT - since there are always aspects of hidden-ness to them.

 

[packyderms_wife]

Do YOU get to see who votes what??? Just asking cause my VERY BEST FRIEND in the world is LDS and she WILL be the first to tell you that it's a cult that she has NO INTENTIONS of ever leaving. She's visited other "religions" and likes hers the best and YES she STILL refers to it as a cult. But then again we both have a friend in commmon who was sucked into the FLDS movement so she WOULD know, lucky for our friend she had friends and family that were willing to fight for her and she's no longer wife No. 6.

K-

 

[packyderms_wife]

Here's a thought to mentally chew on:

Religion's purpose for being is to prepare the faithful for the time when their faith, not their religion, will either see them through the dark times to come, or cause or allow them to succumb to the darkness. We have to render an accounting before Jesus Christ as God's appointed Judge on an individual basis, and that accounting won't be about your professed religion, it'll be entirely about your faith and the decisions and choices you made up to that point. By way of scriptural example, in Matthew 7:22-24, Jesus implies that folks that claim to follow him aren't automatically "righteous," and plainly states that many folks who think they're in good standing will be rejected outright.

Religion is there to prepare you for that event, but won't help you get through it. When the time comes, you will stand for what you believe, on your own. You might want to choose wisely while there's time for it.

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh the parable of the talents. The ten talent servent chose to go out on his own and believed accordingly. The one talent servent caved to fear and got his just reward of a hell.

 

[truthseeker]

Here's a thought to mentally chew on:

Religion's purpose for being is to prepare the faithful for the time when their faith, not their religion, will either see them through the dark times to come, or cause or allow them to succumb to the darkness. We have to render an accounting before Jesus Christ as God's appointed Judge on an individual basis, and that accounting won't be about your professed religion, it'll be entirely about your faith and the decisions and choices you made up to that point. By way of scriptural example, in Matthew 7:22-24, Jesus implies that folks that claim to follow him aren't automatically "righteous," and plainly states that many folks who think they're in good standing will be rejected outright.

Religion is there to prepare you for that event, but won't help you get through it. When the time comes, you will stand for what you believe, on your own. You might want to choose wisely while there's time for it.

Exactly, People need to put the onus on the own relationship with the creator and creation. Religions are other peoples talking points on how to do that, but have although having sway, don't have merit. Religion like maps show route, but they can never show YOUR walk.

 

[Red Baron]

One also might see all religions as being somewhat OCCULT - since there are always aspects of hidden-ness to them.

For purposes of a religious discussion I really think we should use the term occult, shouldn't we? Cult is just extracted from occult, at least to my way of thinking.

When we start saying cult or occult aren’t we really trying to define what a “false” religion is and therefore what is a “dangerous” religion?

Such a discussion is always fraught with peril but I don’t think it really has to be that fundamentally difficult. What complicates matters is when modern relativism replaces moral absolutism and when modern relativism creates various strata of religious “enlightenment”.

Two Important Concepts In My Own Opinion,

1 - Religion is composed of moral absolutes. A thief is a thief, a murderer is a murderer, a liar is a liar. Sins are punishable and have negative consequences. Sounds simple and it should be but modern relativism blurs these moral absolutes.

2 – The Concept of an Individual Spirit God that rises above others and has its own unique rewards for those properly enlightened.
These concepts are fundamental and are the warning signs that one is treading into dangerous territory.

Occult religions allow the individual to pick and choose what is a sin and what is not based on one’s own personal world view. Situational ethics become the norm. One’s own comfort factor defines the world around them.

An even more obvious warning sign is when an occult religion promises that one can become their own spiritual center of the universe. Many occult religions promise that one will become their own “spirit god” and reign over others in the afterlife. Nice gig if you can get it, but it doesn’t exist.

 

[Dennis Olson]

Occult is generally used to define Satan, witchcraft or demon-based "faiths", and in that regard, none of the religions in the poll qualify.

 

[SarahLynn]

oO, how dare you provide evidence that conflicts with the "born agains" who believe that just because they accepted Christ, they can now coast straight to Heaven regardless of what they do on Earth for the rest of their lives. Heresy sir!!!

I'm a born-again and I certainly don't believe that, nor do my friends/family who are born-again. Anyone who believes that is fulfilling exactly what the apostle James said, which is that they are only fooling themselves. "Faith without works is dead, being alone." Good deeds don't GET us into heaven, we do them because we have been saved (born-again). The evidence of whether or not a person actually meant the commitment is what they DO with it.
You'll find the confused/deluded/not following the supposed tenets of their religion in any faith.

 

[packyderms_wife]

I'm a born-again and I certainly don't believe that, nor do my friends/family who are born-again. Anyone who believes that is fulfilling exactly what the apostle James said, which is that they are only fooling themselves. "Faith without works is dead, being alone." Good deeds don't GET us into heaven, we do them because we have been saved (born-again). The evidence of whether or not a person actually meant the commitment is what they DO with it.
You'll find the confused/deluded/not following the supposed tenets of their religion in any faith.

Works in that particular line in James does not mean good deeds, in this instance "works" means obedience.

K-

 

[Dennis Olson]

And here we go. This part of the debate is why the ones that believe that once saved they can do anything they want on Earth think that way. IMO that's delusional, but hey, it is what it is. We all have to make that call on a personal basis.

 

[SarahLynn]

And here we go. This part of the debate is why the ones that believe that once saved they can do anything they want on Earth think that way. IMO that's delusional, but hey, it is what it is. We all have to make that call on a personal basis.

Well, they can't find any Biblical support for it, there's plenty of Biblical evidence against that kind of thinking, and they think that because they want to rationalize their lifestyle.

 

[SarahLynn]

"Works" also means the good deeds we do. James talked about doing tangible, good deeds.

James 2
14 aWhat use is it, bmy brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?

15 aIf a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food,

16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that?

 

[In8lyShy]

The difference between a cult and a religion, it has been said, is the level of popular acceptance of the beliefs held thereby, i.e., when a sufficient number of people have subscribed to the tenets of a cult, it has then transcended to a religion.

However, that sophistry is a bit too pat for a rigorous comparison of two fairly complex concepts. Here is a list of characteristics of cults or cultic groups and the contrast between groups labeled as religions, as compiled by the Jewish Board of Family and Childrens' Services:

http://www.cultclinic.org/qa3.html



Judging by these criteria, probably the only group listed in the poll above that would definitely qualify as a cult would be Scientology, not surprisingly. Certain aspects of radical Islam sects could qualify them as cults also, although mainstream Islam sects would probably qualify as religions.

I leave it to the reader to make his or her own determination as to which of the groups above are cults, and which are religions.

____________________

+1. These reflect the exact criteria for my vote.

 

[Richard]

you forgot to include the global warming = man-made CO2 religion or cult

and see no mention of the Freemasons, lodge or odd-fellows or whatever they like to be called in your neck of the woods

 

[ready2go]

I agree. I've seen several mainstream Christian churches act 'cultish' at times. It depends on the church's leadership I s'pose.

 

[Dennis Olson]

Masons, Oddfellows, etc are fraternal organizations. They do not purport to be a religion.

But those climate-change cultists, yeah, I know what you mean...

 

[OddOne]

What I always find interesting about "is _religion_ a cult?" polls is that the two most frequently cited examples, LDS/Mormonism and Jehovah's Witnesses, are both large enough religions to have achieved mainstream status in the U.S. at #9 and #10 largest Christian denominations respectively, and with 4% and 2% of the country's adult population self-identifying as members, again respectively. Neither religion fits the true definitions of a "cult," but both are often considered to be cults by adherents of larger denominations strictly and purely over disagreements on theological and doctrinal views and not because of actual cult-like activity.

Doctrinal differences aside, both Mormons and Witnesses are as legitimate as religions as the other so-called "mainstream" denominations. Both are forthright almost to a fault about what they believe and offer services that are open to the public. Neither is based on a "cult of personality" approach that centers on a charismatic leader but instead they both have carefully laid out central organizations that codify the religion's official doctrinal views (much as the Magisterium, Body of Cardinals, and Pope do for the Roman Catholic Church). Both perform public services, but tend to keep those out of the public eye for the simple reason that charity isn't supposed to be bragged about. Both allow members to leave if they wish, although, as is widely practiced by most of Christendom, members are encouraged to avoid interacting with ex-members in order to protect congregations from outside influences, potential apostasy, etc. Both require members to reach the point of accepting the religion's tenets through study and research, which when coupled with an open attitude toward espousing the religion's beliefs, gives prospective members ample opportunity to decide for themselves whether to join or not.

Like I said, the "cult" nonsense stems strictly from differences in opinion on the doctrinal side, not because of actual issues like sequestering members, demanding followers participate in harmful or suicidal activities, etc. etc. etc.


Aside: A popular "check box" on the "is it a cult?" list is mind control. Every religion on Earth practices some form of what psychologists would call mind-control tactics on its members. Without exception. To cite two opposite ends of the spectrum, let's look at Jehovah's Witnesses and Roman Catholicism. JWs aggressively practice shunning ("disfellowshipping") as the final-tier punishment for transgressions against the religion's rules, and members that leave of their own accord are to be shunned as well as a protective measure. This practice is in fact a popular rallying point for crying "JWs are a cult." Roman Catholicism not only has a less-often-prescribed practice that's basically the same thing ("excommunication"), but the RCC also teaches that there is no salvation outside itself and those not saved by remaining in the Church are damned to punishment in hell. Essentially, both practices are considered to be mind control - one in that you're shunned by previous friends and associates if you leave or are kicked out, the other in that you're basically consigned to hell if you leave or are kicked out. In both cases, an ex-member can work to return to the religion as a member in good standing, as neither punishment is permanent unless the punished makes it so.

 

[Richard]

you haven't included socialism or political correctness as a cult?

 

[OldArcher]

Dennis, you're one smart hombre. However, you forgot the koolaid drinking cults of liberal, progressive, socialist, communist, and nazi. THEY are cults that deal in hell, death, and destruction...

OA, out...

 

[Delta]

To me, the more hirarchy, the more cult. In other words, a religion allows me to achieve salvation on my own (not getting into faith vs. works here) and helps me as an individual live my life. A cult requires that I go through someone else as an intermediary (a priest, Jim Jones) and subordinates myself for the group (or more particularly the group leader). Also, the more secretive, and the more exclusive, the more cult-like.

 

[peekaboo]

Personally, I think most people have issues with organized religion because they do not want to be accountable to any other PERSON on Earth for their words and deeds nor do they want to shoulder the duties and obligations such a church membership requires.

It is far more comfortable and conducive to accommodating our favorite sins to claim one's self ONLY accountable to God, and most practitioners of this "unanswerable to anyone but God" rationalization think ("if there IS really a God").

But this "spiritual dodge" actually CONTRADICTS the expressed will of God in Scripture. "Loner Christians" deliberately removing and alienating themselves from the Body of Christ is not an option scripture endorses.

I can't speak for all or even most people who avoid organized religion I can however speak for myself. I walked away from organized religion when I because mature enough to realized I should never have tried to placate self righteous, judgmental, sanctimonious, hypercritical busy bodies that know more about the path that I walk with God then God and I do. These are usually people who know more about my intentions then God and I do and believe they can read the mind of others.

If I am not breaking the laws of the land then the only man, women or child I am accountable/answerable to are the the ones that I chose. I understand that this attitude flies in the face of organized religion and those who have given over control of their earthly lives and the state of their souls to the opinions of others, so be it.

 

[bad_karma00]

"Works" also means the good deeds we do. James talked about doing tangible, good deeds.

Absolutely. Saved by faith, and not Works refers to 'works' of the law of Moses. The works mentioned by James refer indeed to Christian deeds and service to others. Well said.

ETA: Um, I didn't notice what the header for this was. Apologies if this was thread drift. Good reading here though.

 

[Kathy in FL]

And to add even more thread drift, remember there are two Judgments ... one is based on whether you are in the Lamb's Book of Life. The second is the Judgment of works. If you have never read the book "Heaven" by Randy Alcorn, I recommend it as very thought inducing. Here is a short excerpt from it reguarding the issue of salvation vs. works.

What awaits the believer after death? We all know the answer—heaven. Heaven is a real place in which we will worship God (Revelation 5:11-13), serve God (Revelation 7:15) and reign with God (Revelation 22:5). It is a place of great pleasure, characterized by magnificent beauty, including streets of gold and buildings of pearls and emeralds and precious stones (Rev. 21:19-21). We will live, celebrate, eat and drink in heaven (Revelation 19:9; Luke 22:29, 30).
Heaven will be a wonderful place, and we will enter it only on the basis of faith in Christ's work for us, not by any works which we have done. What we seldom consider is that Scripture plainly tells us there is a judgment of believers, not simply of our faith but of our works, that will determine for all eternity certain aspects of our place or position in heaven.

Scripture repeatedly states all men, not just unbelievers, will be judged for their works (Proverbs 24:12; Ecclesiastes 12:14). The unbeliever's judgment of works comes at the Great White Throne (Revelation 20:12). The believer will not be condemned at the Great White Throne, but nonetheless he still faces a judgment of works himself, at what is called the "Judgment Seat of Christ."

The Lord's evaluation of the seven churches in Revelation 2 and 3 makes clear he is watching us, evaluating us. He is "keeping score." As an instructor gives grades to his students, so Christ gives grades to the churches. To Christians Jesus says, "I am he who searches hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds" (Revelation 2:23).

Scripture teaches with unmistakable clarity that all believers in Christ will give an account of their lives to their Lord (Romans 14:10-12). We will be judged by him according to our works, both good and bad (2 Corinthians 5:10). The result of this will be the gain or loss of eternal rewards (1 Corinthians 3:12-15; 2 Corinthians 5:9,10; Romans 14:10-12).

God's Word treats this judgment with great sobriety. It does not portray it as a meaningless formality or a going-through-the-motions before we get on to the real business of heavenly bliss. Rather, Scripture presents it as a monumental event in which things of eternal significance are brought to light and things of eternal consequence are put into effect.

If any man builds on this foundation [the foundation of Christ] using gold, silver, costly stones, wood hay or straw, his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames. (1 Corinthians 3:12-15)

Our works are what we have done with our resources—time, energy, talents, money, possessions. The fire of God's holiness will reveal the quality of these works, the eternal significance of what we have done with our God-given assets. The fate of the works will be determined by their nature. If they are made of the right stuff (gold, silver, costly stones), they will withstand and be purified by the fire. But no matter how nice our works of wood and hay and straw have looked in the display case of this world, they will not withstand the incendiary gaze of God's Son in the next.

2 Corinthians 5:10 says, "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad."

"Whether good or bad" in this verse is perhaps the most disturbing phrase for believers in the entire New Testament. It is so disturbing, in fact, that I've found any honest attempts to deal with it are met with tremendous resistance. Equally disturbing is the direct statement to Christians that not only will they receive reward from Christ for their good works, but "Anyone who does wrong will be repaid for his wrong, and there is no favoritism" (Colossians 3:25). If Christ has paid the price for our sin, if we confess and receive forgiveness of our sins, then what can such verses mean?

Our sins are totally forgiven when we come to Christ, and we stand justified in him. Nevertheless, Scripture says what it does about our coming judgment. This judgment of believers by Christ is a judgment of our works, not our sins. However, the commission of sins and the omission of righteous acts we should have done, apparently replaces or prevents the laying up of precious stones on the foundation of Christ. Therefore these sins contribute directly to the believer's "suffering loss." Through this loss of reward the believer is considered to be receiving his "due" for his works "whether good or bad." Hence what we do as believers, both good and bad, will one way or the other have effects for eternity.

Why is the believer's coming judgment of works, such a clear teaching of Scripture and such a central motivating force among God's people for centuries, so badly ignored in the western church today? Partly because, through misunderstandings and embracing half truths, we have come to believe that our works are not important to God. On the contrary, they are extremely important to God, and should be given careful attention by ourselves.

The five hundred year old play Everyman is a picture of all persons. As Everyman faces Death he looks among his friends for a companion. One friend would accompany him on the journey through death to final judgment. His name was "Good Deeds."

Some of us may balk at such a picture. Yet it is explicitly biblical: "Then I heard a voice from heaven say, "Write: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on." "Yes," says the Spirit, "they will rest from their labor, for their deeds will follow them" (Revelation 14:13).

In Revelation 19:7-8 we are told "the wedding of the Lamb has come and his bride has made herself ready. Fine linen, bright and clean was given her to wear. (Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of the saints.)"

This passage offers several surprises. We might have expected to be told that Christ makes the bride ready, rather than she herself. We could have expected the fine linen would stand for the righteousness of Christ, or perhaps the righteous faith of the saints. But what we are told is that it stands for the righteous acts or works or deeds of the saints. (If we will indeed be clothed according to our works for Christ, some of us may suffer from acute exposure!)

Somewhere we've gotten the erroneous idea that to God "works" is a dirty word. This is totally false. While he condemns works done to earn salvation, and works done to impress others, our Lord enthusiastically commends righteous works done for the right reasons. Immediately after saying our salvation is "not by works," Paul adds: "For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do" (Ephesians 2:8-10). Salvation is a matter of God's work for man. Reward is a matter of man's work for God.

God created us to do good works, has a lifetime of good works for each of us to do and will reward us according to whether or not we do them. Indeed, Scripture ties God's reward-giving to his very character: "God is not unjust; he will not forget your work and the love you have shown him as you have helped his people and continue to help them" (Hebrews 6:10). The verses that follow in Hebrews 6 tell us that if we are to inherit God's promised blessings we must not become lazy, but be diligent to do our God-given works.

Good works are essential to the Christian life, as James repeatedly states (James 2:17,18,22,24,26). "Who is wise and understanding among you? Let him show it by his good life, by deeds done in the humility that comes from wisdom" (James 3:13).

We know that Christ will say to some (but not all) believers "Well done, good and faithful servant" (Matthew 25:21). It is significant that he will not say "Well said" or "Well believed" but "Well done." In the account of the sheep and goats, where the "Well done" is spoken, that which separates the sheep from the goats is what they did and did not do with their time and money and possessions.

Peter said "if you do these things [then] you will never fall, and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ" (2 Peter 1:10-11). What a powerful encouragement to the godly saint who has sacrificed in this life to prepare for the next. In heaven there waits for him a great welcoming committee, and a hearty "Well done." But this is not automatic for believers—the conditional "if, then" makes it clear that if we do not do what Peter prescribes, then we will not receive this rich welcome when we enter heaven.

Where we spend eternity, whether heaven or hell, will be determined by our faith. Our further station in either place will be determined by our works. John Bunyan, ever-motivated by this reality, said, "Consider, to provoke you to good works, that you shall have from God, when you come to glory, a reward for everything you do for him on earth."

What does all this mean? That my God-given resources of time and talents and money and possessions have immense potential. They are the lever, positioned on the fulcrum of this life, that moves the mountains of eternity.

As evangelicals we reject the doctrine of a second chance for unbelievers, an opportunity after death to come to trust in Christ. But we must be equally aware there is no second chance for believers after death either. There is no further opportunity for us to walk by faith and serve our Lord in this fallen world. As there is no second chance beyond this earth for the unbeliever to believe right, so there is no second chance for the disobedient Christian to behave right.

This life ends at death. We can't do it over again. There's no retaking the course of life on this earth once we've failed it. There's no improving a "D" to an "A", no rescheduling of the final exams. There are no strings to pull, no going over the professor's head. Death is the final deadline, for which there is no extension.

A basketball game is over at the final buzzer. No shots taken thereafter count. Likewise, when the trumpet sounds Christ's return, time will be gone. It will simultaneously be the beginning of eternity and the end of that which determines eternity's composition. At that time, if we have failed to use our time and energies and possessions for eternity, then we have failed. Period.

It's not so simple as saying "We'll be in heaven and that's all that matters." On the contrary, Paul speaks of loss of reward as a great and terrible loss. The fact that we are still saved is only a clarification, not a consolation—"if it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames" (1 Corinthians 3:15).

The receiving of reward from Christ is an unspeakable gain with eternal implications. The loss of reward is a terrible loss with equally eternal implications. (How dare we say that being in heaven is all that matters to us, when so much else matters to God?)

The bottom line of all this is that what we do in this life is of eternal importance. This begins with our choice to follow Christ, but it does not end there. What you do with your time and money and all your other resources in this life is the last chapter of your autobiography. This book you've written with the pen of faith and the ink of works will go unedited, into eternity, to be seen and read as is by the angels, the redeemed and God himself. When we see today in light of the long tomorrow the little choices become tremendously important. Whether I read my Bible today, pray, go to church, share my faith and give my money is of eternal consequence, not only for other souls, but for my own.

Those who've dabbled in photography understand the effect of the "fixer." In developing a photograph, the negatives are immersed in several different solutions. The developing solution parallels this life. As long as the photograph is in the developer it is subject to change. But when it is dropped in the fixer or "stop bath" it is permanently fixed. The photograph is now done. What you see is what you get. So it will be when we enter eternity—the lives we lived on earth will be fixed as is, never to be altered or revised.

Scripture simply does not teach what most of us seem to assume—that heaven will transform each of us into equal beings with equal possessions and equal responsibilities and equal capacities. It does not say our previous lives will be of no eternal significance. It says exactly the opposite.

Beyond the New Heavens and New Earth—which themselves are populated and structured according to what has been done in this life—there is no record of change. We might hope that what happens at the judgment seat will be of only temporary concern to the Judge, and that all of the disobedience and missed opportunities will just "blow over" and none of it will ever make any difference. But will God make all souls equal in heaven and thereby consider as equally valid a life of selfishness and indifference to others' needs as compared to a life spent on its knees praying and feeding the hungry and sharing the gospel? The Bible seems to say "no."

We have been given fair warning that there lies ahead for each of us, at the end of the term, a final examination. It will be administered by the fairest yet strictest Headmaster in the universe. How seriously we take this clear teaching of Scripture is demonstrated by how seriously we are preparing for that day.

When we took courses in college we asked others about the teacher: "what are his tests like, does he take attendance, is he a hard grader, what does he expect in your papers?" If I'm to do well in the course I must know what the instructor expects of me. We must study the course syllabus, God's Word, to find out the answers to these questions. And when we find out, we should be careful to plot our lives accordingly—in light of the long tomorrow.

While visiting a missionary friend in Greece, the two of us spent a day in ancient Corinth. For an hour we sat on the same judgment seat Paul stood before in Acts 18, and which he used to help the Corinthian Christians visualize Christ's future judgment of the believer. Together we read Scriptures that speak of that day when we'll stand before the Lord's judgment seat and give an account for what we have done with all he has given us. We discussed the implications and prayed that when that day comes he, the Audience of One, might find us faithful and say to us, "Well done." Yet we prayed knowing that it is we, by virtue of our hourly and daily choices to depend on him and follow him, who will determine what transpires on that day.

Alfred Nobel was a Swedish chemist who made his fortune by inventing dynamite and other powerful explosives, which were bought by governments to produce weapons. When Nobel's brother died, one newspaper accidentally printed Alfred's obituary instead. He was described as a man who became rich from enabling people to kill each other in unprecedented quantities. Shaken from this assessment, Nobel resolved to use his fortune to reward accomplishments that benefited humanity, including what we now know as the Nobel Peace Prize.

Nobel had a rare opportunity—to look at the assessment of his life at its end, but to still be alive and have opportunity to change that assessment. Let's put ourselves in Nobel's place. Let's read our own obituary, not as written by uniformed or biased men, but as an onlooking angel might write it from heaven's point of view. Let's look at it carefully. Then let's use the rest of our lives to edit that obituary into what we really want it to be.

A moment after we die we will know exactly how we should have lived. But it will be too late to go back and live life here over again. Thankfully, God has given us his Word so that we don't have to wait until we die to know how we should have lived.

Martin Luther said that on his calendar there were only two days: "today" and "that Day." May we learn to live now in light of eternity. May we learn to live our short todays in light of the long tomorrow.

 

[rodeorector]

Reading some of the crap on this thread, it's amazing we all get along as well as we do!

 

[nomifyle]

Reading some of the crap on this thread, it's amazing we all get along as well as we do!

Amen.

Judy

 

[Tweakette]

My definition of a cult would be a religious group that follows a charismatic leader and the group encourages its members to avoid contact with non believers including family and former friends. Also, you are free to join, but you can't leave.

This is my definition as well. In my opinion the control of the members is the key difference between a cult and religion. If you can question it and leave if you like, it's a religion. If not, it's a cult. Obviously that's simplified but that's the general gist of it.

 

[Kent]

The group displays excessively zealous and unquestioning commitment to its leader and (whether he is alive or dead) regards his belief system, ideology, and practices as the Truth, as law.

‪ Questioning, doubt, and dissent are discouraged or even punished.

‪ Mind-altering practices (such as meditation, chanting, speaking in tongues, denunciation sessions, and debilitating work routines) are used in excess and serve to suppress doubts about the group and its leader(s).

‪ The leadership dictates, sometimes in great detail, how members should think, act, and feel (for example, members must get permission to date, change jobs, marry—or leaders prescribe what types of clothes to wear, where to live, whether or not to have children, how to discipline children, and so forth).

‪ The group is elitist, claiming a special, exalted status for itself, its leader(s) and members (for example, the leader is considered the Messiah, a special being, an avatar—or the group and/or the leader is on a special mission to save humanity).

‪ The group has a polarized us-versus-them mentality, which may cause conflict with the wider society.

‪ The leader is not accountable to any authorities (unlike, for example, teachers, military commanders or ministers, priests, monks, and rabbis of mainstream religious denominations).

‪ The group teaches or implies that its supposedly exalted ends justify whatever means it deems necessary. This may result in members' participating in behaviors or activities they would have considered reprehensible or unethical before joining the group (for example, lying to family or friends, or collecting money for bogus charities).

‪ The leadership induces feelings of shame and/or guilt iin order to influence and/or control members. Often, this is done through peer pressure and subtle forms of persuasion.

‪ Subservience to the leader or group requires members to cut ties with family and friends, and radically alter the personal goals and activities they had before joining the group.

‪ The group is preoccupied with bringing in new members.

‪ The group is preoccupied with making money.

‪ Members are expected to devote inordinate amounts of time to the group and group-related activities.

‪ Members are encouraged or required to live and/or socialize only with other group members.

‪ The most loyal members (the “true believers”) feel there can be no life outside the context of the group. They believe there is no other way to be, and often fear reprisals to themselves or others if they leave (or even consider leaving) the group


http://www.csj.org/infoserv_cult101/checklis.htm

And here we go. This part of the debate is why the ones that believe that once saved they can do anything they want on Earth think that way. IMO that's delusional, but hey, it is what it is. We all have to make that call on a personal basis.

No group I know of believes that straw man argument. Some one who would say they are saved and then do anything they want was not saved to start with.

 

[Fred's Horseradish]

There was a thread asking what is a cult. I can't find it! I replied, any system that says they are it and no one else. There were a lot of good ideas.
I have said, the RCC is so large, there are cults w/n. I left the Adventist system 20 years ago. It is as cult. If they are still saying the same things. But I still believe it is the best because of their health system. JWs, Mormans etc are too.
If a system says we are the best, but there are others, it is a sect.

 

[TerryK]

Reading some of the crap on this thread, it's amazing we all get along as well as we do!

Absolutely right!!!
A hundred posters have a hundred different ideas of what a cult is and it generally boils down to everyone else but them.
Know love and serve God as best you can and love your neighbor. That should do it.

 

[Intergator]

Your beliefs are a religion.

Other peoples beliefs that aren't aligned with yours are a cult.

 

[Scrapman]

I wonder how many baptist and mormans say catholic is a cult because thats what they were taught from a early age....or thats part of there indoctrination...
Never in my life have i been taught to dissrespect any other religion as a catholic.
scrapman

 

[optimistic pessimist]

Well, Scrapman, unfortunately "Protestant" means one who protests, and they have to have something to protest against, and historically that has been the Catholic Church. As a Catholic I come to expect it of them, otherwise they would either be Catholics, Athiests, or some other non-Christian religion.