REL GENRL Which religions are cults?

[Dennis Olson]

In the spirit of Grantbo's poll request on the latest political/Mormon thread, I've decided to post a poll. It just won't be like he expects to see .

THIS IS A MULTIPLE CHOICE POLL.

For each Yes/No grouping, please select ONE (Yes or No) for each religion listed.


Feel free to provide a Y/N for each one. Note that I ran out of option slots. I had a lot more in mind.

 

[Dennis Olson]

Added Mormonism and Islam.

 

[oyster_777]

They are all cults... because they are man made.

 

[SM10Daisies]

I used to think like most christians and beleive there are 'cults' I no longer do. I just beleive satan has his grasp on ALL RELIGIONS, some way more than others. Satan has deceived the WHOLE world. He has his claws in every single religion on this planet. I know that most in christianity will say anyone who does not beleive in the Messiah is in a cult. While I do totally beleive in Jesus Christ as the Messiah who came first to save us from our sins and will return to bring the Kingdom of God to earth, I do not follow traditional christianity. It has accepted so many of the false doctrines brought in by satan it is nothing like what Jesus taught or practiced. Satan is so happy, especially at this time of the year, that he has deceived all of mankind.

 

[Ender]

According to the dictionary, all religions are cults:

Definition of CULT
1
: formal religious veneration : worship
2
: a system of religious beliefs and ritual; also : its body of adherents

 

[2dollarbill]

Perhaps then you could have had a selection for ALL religous faiths. This would even include satanism. It's just my take, that any time a man or group of men
organize other people and tell them which dogma it is that is the TRUTH, and all the others are false, it is a cult. Each person in my opinion has the truth written
on their heart. It is up to that individual to recognise what it is, not someone else telling you. Just my opinion.

 

[Aardaerimus]

According to the dictionary, all religions are cults:

Definition of CULT
1
: formal religious veneration : worship
2
: a system of religious beliefs and ritual; also : its body of adherents

Hahaha Was going to say the exact same thing... Had the m-w up in my clipboard and everything.

 

[Tom Bryceland]

i can honestly say, I voted for all of the above

 

[Ender]

Hahaha Was going to say the exact same thing... Had the m-w up in my clipboard and everything.

Great minds but of a single thought!

We must have been bros in another life.

 

[RJC]

i can honestly say, I voted for all of the above

Yes , as cults! So did I but for Atheism which is lack of belief in the existence of God. Atheism is not structured it is simply not having religiousness in one's life, not having need for ritual or liturgy of any type.

 

[WestTx753]

They are all cults... because they are man made.

Amen.

 

[Oilpatch Hand]

The difference between a cult and a religion, it has been said, is the level of popular acceptance of the beliefs held thereby, i.e., when a sufficient number of people have subscribed to the tenets of a cult, it has then transcended to a religion.

However, that sophistry is a bit too pat for a rigorous comparison of two fairly complex concepts. Here is a list of characteristics of cults or cultic groups and the contrast between groups labeled as religions, as compiled by the Jewish Board of Family and Childrens' Services:

http://www.cultclinic.org/qa3.html

Within a healthy religious environment, family bonds are upheld and even strengthened, questioning of the leader and basic tenets is accepted, and the leader lives in a similar manner to the followers. One is offered all the information necessary to make an educated decision about joining, and once involved, people can choose the amount of involvement that feels right to them.

A cultic environment tears families apart, does not accept any questioning, and has a leader who claims to have an exalted position and to be above reproach. The cult is designed to solely advance its own goals, to abuse the members’ trust, and to use fear and shame to manipulate the followers. It freely utilizes deceptive techniques while recruiting new members and fundraising, misuses scripture, and declares other belief systems as false. Because it is not under the umbrella of a recognized religion, there is no governing body and the leader is, therefore, free to do as he or she pleases.

We have compiled the following comparative list to address this question, though there is no definitive answer.

CULT OR CULTIC GROUP

1. Deceit in recruitment
2. Totalitarian
3. Destroys the family unit
4. Isolates its members
5. Keeps non-believers out
6. Limits development of individual
7. Exploits and manipulates its members with mind control techniques
8. Commitment is encouraged during recruitment process
9. Criticism is met with threats of legal action
10. Leader and follower consider leader to be above reproach
11. Questioning the leader, or basic tenets, is not allowed

RELIGION

1. Information offered up front
2. Allows freedom of thought and members have a say
3. Promotes the family unit
4. Works within society
5. Open to general community
6. Interested in promoting potential
7. While there are guidelines members are not systematically controlled
8. Thought before commitment is encouraged as part of conversion process
9. People are free to speak out against the tenets of a religion
10. Clergy are expected to be responsible for their words and actions
11. Critical thinking is allowed and sometimes even encouraged

Judging by these criteria, probably the only group listed in the poll above that would definitely qualify as a cult would be Scientology, not surprisingly. Certain aspects of radical Islam sects could qualify them as cults also, although mainstream Islam sects would probably qualify as religions.

I leave it to the reader to make his or her own determination as to which of the groups above are cults, and which are religions.

 

[dimensiondancer]

My first thought was define "cult", now I see (Ender) and my own dictionary define it as religion, which seems to be unfair as I always figured a cult was like Satanism.

How wrong I was, so I voted wrong on all choices.

I think we all learned something.

 

[dimensiondancer]

And we forgot the "Branch Davidians" stemming from 7th Day Adventist. Cults IMO, not dictionary type, but wacko type.

Any true clean religion can divide off and become wackos if lead by the wrong individual and fed by the dumb sheep.

 

[Dennis Olson]

Based on OPH's definition above, Mormonism could never be considered a cult.

 

[Oilpatch Hand]

Based on OPH's definition above, Mormonism could never be considered a cult.

I wouldn't classify it as one, myself, although there are some who are altogether too quick to do just that.

My own view of Mormonism is that it is a Christian sect that holds certain unique beliefs not generally shared by other Christian sects.

 

[mzkitty]

I do believe in God and Jesus Christ, but I have no religion and don't want one. I voted all religions are cults, but to each their own -- unless you try to force me to be your particular religion.

What would the world be like if people understood the Kingdom is within themselves and that they didn't need religions to go to war over?

 

[RJC]

Based on OPH's definition above, Mormonism could never be considered a cult.

Nor could it be considered a religion by OPH's definition which are not realistically how any religion functions (see 9 &11)

 

[dimensiondancer]

Based on OPH's definition above, Mormonism could never be considered a cult.

Unless it is lead off in a different direction, such as Warren Jeffs or whatever his name was, that wouldn't let the kids leave because he wanted to marry them.

The Amish could be considered kooks too, but thank God this country is about freedom of choice, which is a good thing.

(tried to post this earlier and it got lost??)

 

[Rex Jackson]

Cool thread.

I believe Christianity is not even a religion. Christianity is ones desire to study scripture in order to help them be more like Jesus. Other religions are largely 'break-off's of Christianity, for financial gain, personal gain, or control. Study and one will find this to be true. Scripture comes from the worlds oldest book, the Bible. The Quran is 700 years old(?) while other churches borrow the Bible. A Christian church can be anywhere. In an apartment, or a rundown old building. Its just the meeting of people seeking to learn, helping one another. Sure there are bum Christian churches but thats human nature. Most other churches spend countless dollars covering their walls with gold and gems while the poor starve down the street. That to me is also not very God like. Blessings, miracles and divine interventions, I have seen them all. Things I cannot explain except that they must have come from our creator.

Besides, how one could ignore the Bible in this day and age, after all the prophecies that are coming true each and every day. Ignoring scripture right now would seem to be just be asking for trouble. There are warnings in there, warnings to help keep you alive while fighting the good fight for mankind.

jmo

 

[Dennis Olson]

dd, the Warren Jeff's offshoot embodies several of OPH's "Cult" definitions. "Mainstream" Mormonism does not.

 

[Oilpatch Hand]

Nor could it be considered a religion by OPH's definition which are not realistically how any religion functions (see 9 &11)

Some religions are better about tolerating dissent than others. After all...a religion is a group that supposedly adheres to a given set of beliefs as articles of faith. There's going to be a natural tendency for the religious heierarchy to react negatively when somebody decides to call certain aspects of the faith, or the church leadership, into question.

As we all remember, The Roman Catholic Church used to be unrelentingly intolerant of anything that even remotely departed from church doctrine, e.g., Copernicus, Galileo, etc. But they have made considerable progress in that area.

 

[ltd]

.. in the spirit of this thread, here's a few quotes that come to mind:

.."God gave man truth, the devil came along and said "I'll help organize it with you, and we'll call it religion."

... "Christianity began as a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. When it went to Athens, it became a philosophy. When it went to Rome, it became an organization. When it went to Europe, it became a culture. When it came to America, it became a business."

... "belief is most oft times the enemy of truth!"

 

[Richard]

there are several definitions of the world cult:


cult (klt)
n.
1.
a. A religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist or false, with its followers often living in an unconventional manner under the guidance of an authoritarian, charismatic leader.
b. The followers of such a religion or sect.
2. A system or community of religious worship and ritual.
3. The formal means of expressing religious reverence; religious ceremony and ritual.
4. A usually nonscientific method or regimen claimed by its originator to have exclusive or exceptional power in curing a particular disease.
5.
a. Obsessive, especially faddish, devotion to or veneration for a person, principle, or thing.
b. The object of such devotion.
6. An exclusive group of persons sharing an esoteric, usually artistic or intellectual interest.


another dictionary

1.
a particular system of religious worship, especially with reference to its rites and ceremonies.
2.
an instance of great veneration of a person, ideal, or thing, especially as manifested by a body of admirers: the physical fitness cult.
3.
the object of such devotion.
4.
a group or sect bound together by veneration of the same thing, person, ideal, etc.
5.
Sociology . a group having a sacred ideology and a set of rites centering around their sacred symbols.


not sure what I'm voting for?

 

[changed]

My definition of a cult would be a religious group that follows a charismatic leader and the group encourages its members to avoid contact with non believers including family and former friends. Also, you are free to join, but you can't leave.

 

[Dennis Olson]

A religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist or false, with its followers often living in an unconventional manner


And who, exactly, makes those determinations? And what might their agenda be? And who died and made them boss of everything?


just asking....

 

[TerryK]

The difference between a cult and a religion, it has been said, is the level of popular acceptance of the beliefs held thereby, i.e., when a sufficient number of people have subscribed to the tenets of a cult, it has then transcended to a religion.

However, that sophistry is a bit too pat for a rigorous comparison of two fairly complex concepts. Here is a list of characteristics of cults or cultic groups and the contrast between groups labeled as religions, as compiled by the Jewish Board of Family and Childrens' Services:

http://www.cultclinic.org/qa3.html

Within a healthy religious environment, family bonds are upheld and even strengthened, questioning of the leader and basic tenets is accepted, and the leader lives in a similar manner to the followers. One is offered all the information necessary to make an educated decision about joining, and once involved, people can choose the amount of involvement that feels right to them.

A cultic environment tears families apart, does not accept any questioning, and has a leader who claims to have an exalted position and to be above reproach. The cult is designed to solely advance its own goals, to abuse the members’ trust, and to use fear and shame to manipulate the followers. It freely utilizes deceptive techniques while recruiting new members and fundraising, misuses scripture, and declares other belief systems as false. Because it is not under the umbrella of a recognized religion, there is no governing body and the leader is, therefore, free to do as he or she pleases.

We have compiled the following comparative list to address this question, though there is no definitive answer.

CULT OR CULTIC GROUP

Deceit in recruitment
Totalitarian
Destroys the family unit
Isolates its members
Keeps non-believers out
Limits development of individual
Exploits and manipulates its members with mind control techniques
Commitment is encouraged during recruitment process
Criticism is met with threats of legal action
Leader and follower consider leader to be above reproach
Questioning the leader, or basic tenets, is not allowed

RELIGION


Information offered up front
Allows freedom of thought and members have a say
Promotes the family unit
Works within society
Open to general community
Interested in promoting potential
While there are guidelines members are not systematically controlled
Thought before commitment is encouraged as part of conversion process
People are free to speak out against the tenets of a religion
Clergy are expected to be responsible for their words and actions
Critical thinking is allowed and sometimes even encouraged



Judging by these criteria, probably the only group listed in the poll above that would definitely qualify as a cult would be Scientology, not surprisingly. Certain aspects of radical Islam sects could qualify them as cults also, although mainstream Islam sects would probably qualify as religions.

I leave it to the reader to make his or her own determination as to which of the groups above are cults, and which are religions.

I believe Oil Patch nailed it. Best definition and explanation I've heard.
Always using the dictionary definition is sophmoric, because the common usage of many words change over time. I believe "cult" is one of these.

 

[Richard]

I don't see "cult" as necessarily being "bad", I prefer the dictionary definitions as above, but the word "cult" has been used by the media as an insult to describe Scientology etc, cults can be religions, religions can be cults or not but not saying they are good or bad

I guess Dennis meant cult in a negative sense

 

[dimensiondancer]

I think any true and honest (good) religion that gets infected with satan and his ideas will cause the offshoots, diversions, corruptions and misdeeds. It happens to ALL religions. This was predicted in the Bible and it has come to past.

Branch Davidians were one, as the leader claimed he was Jesus (corruption). Not the fault of any Seventh Day Adventist. Same with Warren Jeffs, not the fault of any Mormons or their beliefs.

I think the closer you are to Jesus (you and your specific religion) the more you will be tempted by the evil one who rules this planet.

He does not like any worshipping to anyone but himself, so he re-arranges any uncorrupt religion into a twisted cult to favor his own needs.

JMHO

 

[Dennis Olson]

The term "cult" today is a pejorative term.

 

[medic38572]

Based on OPH's definition above, Mormonism could never be considered a cult.

I didn't answer the poll. Based on my understanding the above stated poll,
the only thing that doesn't fit into to Religious beliefs.
I am politically Liberal/Progressive
I am politically Centerist
I am politically Conservative

The rest are all religiousness beliefs. Many may think they are a cult but they are all Religion. The reason I didn't answer the poll was because many beliefs up there are considered Christian beliefs so adding Christianity didn't make sense.

Are Mormon, Jehovah Witness's, Baptist and Catholics now not considered to be Christians beliefs?

Just asking no fight looked for..

 

[Dennis Olson]

I added those as a point-of-reference for those responding to the poll. Personal interest on my part only.

 

[Aardaerimus]

Great minds but of a single thought!

We must have been bros in another life.

It's almost certain!

 

[Dennis Olson]

Are Mormon, Jehovah Witness's, Baptist and Catholics now not considered to be Christians beliefs?

Whether or not these sects are "Christian" is not the question. Whether or not people consider them CULTS is. And there ARE Christian cults.

 

[optimistic pessimist]

Are Mormon, Jehovah Witness's, Baptist and Catholics now not considered to be Christians beliefs?

Whether or not these sects are "Christian" is not the question. Whether or not people consider them CULTS is. And there ARE Christian cults.

Probably. The issue is Christianity as a whole is now so fragmented most adhere to whatever their rose colored lenses allow them to see, including how they interpret the Bible, and anyone who does not align with their own beliefs or who they are scared of (you know the type...the references they use to criticize any given religion is extremely biased to justify those lenses). That being said, because someone may believe something to be true about a given religion or denomination is true, doesn't make it true.....but under that person's skewed definition of what Mormonism, Baptists, Catholics, etc. believe, the definition probably does equate to a cult....regardless of whether it is truth or not.

We are an extremely judgemental, self-righteous society.

 

[Kronos]

...

We are an extremely judgemental, self-righteous society.

Most especially of late, here in TB2K.

Disagree? Malign the poster whom you disagree with.

 

[Cascadians]

Not only are all religions cults, but so are all systems of belief. If you look at history, many previous systems now seem outdated or did not work. Types of government, agriculture, medicine, science, construction, etc -- all are different now, and will be different in 1000 years. Man is hypnotized by his present environment and thinks whatever he is surrounded by is the "right" way to do things. But it's just massive group-think. Everything changes.

 

[Dobbin]

I would tend to the cult definition provided by OilPatch. Particularly the "family values" part. One of the apparent strengths of the human condition is a generalized societal/cultural acceptance of what humanity has found successful in extending their numbers, i.e. the family unit. A religion that gets in the way of this success should be named a cult and thus can be termed contrary to the human condition.

And to this same thought anything promoted that gets in the way of the formation of family units, (i.e. homosexuality, celibacy, polygamy,) invalidates any organization endorsing these - and tends to push this organization into the cult region. But having said this I will concede that any of these negatives to the human condition can be controlled with a sufficiently strong religious/institutional/cultural direction. Humanity is, if anything, ADAPTABLE. When a rock is found in plowing - you work around the rock if it can't be removed.

Hmm. There are a few mainstream religions that have plowed up a few boulders? Hope they have their plow in line with the traces?

The equine in their natural condition tend to something other than the family unit - more akin to the "divine right" of early human society (you know the one where the King gets to impregnate all women and all the offspring/issue take on his characteristics?) Humanity gets in the way of this in breeding equine to its purpose - and to serve. The license to do this is God's will according to the Bible and by general human inclination (be fruitful and multiply, dominate etc.) But generally we equine don't practice a religion, or rather our "king" becomes our God apparent. Why make a religion when the society you live within hands you one? (And compels obedience!)

I think for human religion generally a sufficient parallel exists in Gulliver's Travels by Johnathan Swift (1713 or thereabouts) Swift parodied the major human religions of the time by the use of the "big-endians" (those who broke their eggs at the large end before eating) and the "small-endians" (those who broke their eggs at the small end before eating.) analogy. Swift pointed out that in the exercise, the eggs ALL got broken and the contents were all equally revealed. So choose you any selection of choice from Dennis' list and be content that you will find your spiritual content. Which is why I checked ALL acceptable as religion and not cult.

And someone brought up the fact that all religions of the list above are human created. Hence being human created they likely have faults. Or at least differences. The challenge for humanity as individuals is to choose the religious carriage that is going in the direction your soul wishes to travel. And for humanity generally is to not get hung up on someone else carriage going in the opposite direction. This way you'll both get to where you want to go spiritually. And sometimes rules of the road are necessary for religion too.

As for myself. With my exposure to a religious family unit, I tend to the Protestant Christian egg/carriage/whatever. But only because of books brought home by the Owner's children, which like all the others that come through here I have read and enjoyed. And this to include certainly the Bible Revised Standard Version (although I like the King James Version far better in eloquence.)

I cannot claim to be a Christian, however. Christ came to save Mankind - and of course I am not included among these. But I am willing to give Him credit for a job well done and believe Him to be the Son of God. But you all are Sons (daughters) of God, are you not?

But I have no particular stake in the matter. I poke you not in the eye fearing for the timber in my own.

Besides, the closest I have gotten to a church is the shed enclosure adjacent and out back. These are still functional in our little town, and while filled with lawnmowers, a fund-raising sign, furniture coming with the Interfaith Hospitality Network, a broken down car formerly the Minister's, and props and decorations for Easter and Christmas Pageants from long ago, there are still three stalls open to park a carriage - or a horse. Once in a great while when the weather is warm, I will tow the family to church by the wagon. Owner has to remember to bring a lunch - for me!

And when the wind is still, I can hear the music - and the Minister. Such a voice. Owner is a quiet human. Not so the Minister. He makes up singlehandedly for the oratory shortcomings of the rest of the Congregation combined.

When you have something significant to say I guess you SAY it.

Hope you found all this significant - or enlightening - or thoughtful.

Joe

 

[Dobbin]

Website problems. Every time I make a post to another thread, it RESETS this one back to the top.

I think Dennis knows.

Sorry all. Ask your humble forgiveness. I grovel at your feet.

I'll take some time off. Horses WATCH a lot normally. So this is SOP.

Joe

 

[Cooper]

"Religions are just cults with more members"
I don't know who said it first but it seems to fit.