ALERT Oh, btw, World War Three might soon erupt...

[KateCanada]

This has been bothering me the last few years ... I keep thinking how horrific things are in some parts of the world and wondered.... just as Kate posted The rapture would have happened already to spare the Christians pain and suffering.

I'm still pondering it as a question

Sky, my world turned upside down (like I needed more). My own Pastor suggest this. He did say he could be wrong and we would have to forgive him in Heaven.

Here's what I searched for after the sermon:

http://www.whenistherapture.com/

I feel like you, very confused.

 

[DrexHex]

do the best you can with what you've got and go from there

+1

 

[KateCanada]

I've notived over the years those that tend to scream their faith the most also tend to forget God the most.

I believe in God. I have complete faith but know I have my limitations. Therefore I will do what I must when the time comes and if the end comes of that so be it. I have zero fear of death and going in a nuke blast would be a lot quicker than other things I have experineced.

So my word is "Quit yer whining." do the best you can with what you've got and go from there-being prostrate on the floor and crying and passin gas will do you zero good.
Have the faith or don't, that strength is not mine to give nor is the iron will to use it. Up to you.

Amen

 

[DustMusher]

I've notived over the years those that tend to scream their faith the most also tend to forget God the most.

I believe in God. I have complete faith but know I have my limitations. Therefore I will do what I must when the time comes and if the end comes of that so be it. I have zero fear of death and going in a nuke blast would be a lot quicker than other things I have experineced.

So my word is "Quit yer whining." do the best you can with what you've got and go from there-being prostrate on the floor and crying and passin gas will do you zero good.
Have the faith or don't, that strength is not mine to give nor is the iron will to use it. Up to you.

+1

DM

 

[Sky]

Sky, my world turned upside down (like I needed more). My own Pastor suggest this. He did say he could be wrong and we would have to forgive him in Heaven.

Here's what I searched for after the sermon:

http://www.whenistherapture.com/

I feel like you, very confused.

Kate, thanks for the link

I've been feeling the last few years that the rapture will be after the tribulation and I'm not even sure why.... maybe that link will help I couldn't be anymore confused right now

 

[Flippper]

My apologies to the OP for hijacking the thread, but I think it's important information for those who seem to be losing their hope and feeling down about things. I hope the articles help you sort things out. I don't think we will get off scott free, we will (and are) experiencing bad times and persecution (look at Miss California), though not nearly as dire as other places in the world. I believe our privilege has been due to our nation being a Christian one, and now that we are losing our Christianity, God is allowing social, financial and political entropy to ensue.

Read my signature line and remember, Sodom and Gomorrah couldn't be destroyed until the just were removed from the city. The earth could not be destroyed via flood until the just were safe from the wrath of God. Lot and Noah were both delivered from the wrath. It is clear that what is coming during the Tribulation is judgement and wrath, which we are not a part of.

The Great Tribulation

There are those who believe the Church will go through the Great Tribulation. In exploring this issue, it is essential to distinguish between persecution, which clearly has been the lot of the Church for 19 centuries, and "the Great Tribulation" of eschatological significance. The persecution - and tribulation - of the Church was clearly promised to us:

These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world. -John 16:33

The source of this tribulation is the world and, of course, Satan. However, "the Great Tribulation" of eschatological significance is quite another matter.

For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. -Matthew 24:21

The context here is clearly Israel.29 Jesus is quoting from the Old Testament:

And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book -Daniel 12:1

Note that "thy people will be delivered": the focus of the "Great Tribulation" is Israel. That is why it is called "the time of Jacob's Trouble":

Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it. -Jeremiah 30:7

Jesus (in the Old Testament) explains:

I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me earnestly. 30 -Hosea 5:15

To "return," He must have left His place! The offence referred to is singular and specific: their rejection of Him. In "their affliction" they will ultimately repent and He will respond.31

The Great Tribulation also involves more than the wrath of the world or the wrath of Satan: it involves the indignation and wrath of God. 32 In contrast, the Church has been promised:

For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,-1 Thessalonians 5:9

And,

Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. -Romans 5:9

And, specifically,

Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour [time] of temptation [trial], which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. -Revelation 3:10

Peter also emphasizes,

The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished: -2 Peter 2:9

Here, Peter is using the judgment upon Sodom and Gomorrah "as an example,"33 as Jesus also did,34 in which the prior removal of Lot was a precondition before the angels could do their work.35

A complete study of this issue involves careful and diligent study of both the Church (ecclesiology) as well as the eschatology (end time aspects) of the Great Tribulation, which, of course, far exceeds the focus of this brief review. It requires precise definitions of the terms used, and great care to understand how each of the elements of the revealed truth relate to each other.

But the fundamental doctrine of imminence has to be forfeited with any view that requires the Great Tribulation - or any other precedent event - to occur prior to the Rapture.

Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man. -Luke 21:36

Are you going to escape these things that shall come to pass? If so, how? Or are you relying on the notion that the Lord is "delaying His coming?" 36 This could be a very dangerous presumption. Do your homework. It is important.

The following expands on the Rapture timing.

The Great Snatch?
by Chuck Missler

We continue to receive many questions concerning the "Rapture of the Church" and its apparent contrast with the "Second Coming" of Jesus Christ. Where does this view come from? Is the term "rapture" even in the Bible?

The mysterious event known as the Rapture is most clearly represented in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, which encourages the grieving Christians that, at the "great snatch," they will be reunited with those who have died in Christ before them.

In verse 17, the English phrase "caught up" translates the Greek word harpazo, which means "to seize upon with force" or "to snatch up." The Latin translators of the Bible used the word "rapturo," the root of the English term "Rapture." At the Rapture, living believers will be "caught up" in the air, translated into the clouds, in a moment in time to join the Lord in the air.

There are many that still hold to the view that emerged in the Medieval church (Catholic and Protestant) that the "Second Coming" of Christ and the "Rapture" are somehow the same. Yet there seems to be a number of indications that these are distinct and separate.

There is also predicted an unparalleled "time of trouble" that Jesus called the "Great Tribulation."1 Many hold to the view that the Rapture of the church will occur after that specific period of time, thus, closely associating it with the Second Coming. This is known as the "post-tribulation" view.

Post-Tribulation Views

There are at least four distinct types of post-tribulational views:2
Classic post-tribulationism (J. Barton Payne, et al);
Semi-classic post-tribulation ism (Alexander Reese);
Futuristic post-tribulationism (George E. Ladd);
Dispensational post-tribulationism (Robert H. Gundry).

These differing views are based upon different approaches, presuppositions, and argumentation. In fact, they substantially contradict each other. As one insists on literalness, each of these views must embrace in creasing difficulties. Those of us who cling to a very literal view of the Scriptures believe that the church will be removed prior to the tribulation period (the "pre-tribulation" view). Why? What is the basis for this view?

The Pre-Tribulation View 3

The Rapture is characterized in the New Testament as a "translation coming" (1 Corinthians 15:51- 52; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) in which the Lord comes for His church, taking her to His Father's House (John 14:3). However, at Christ's Second Coming with His saints, He descends from heaven to set up His Messianic Kingdom on earth (Zechariah 14:4-5; Matthew 24:27-31). The differences between the two events are harmonized naturally by the "pre-trib" position, while other views are not able to ac count comfortably for such differences.

A New Testament Mystery

Paul speaks of the Rapture as a "mystery" (1 Corinthians 15:51-54), that is, a truth not revealed until its disclosure by the apostles (Colossians 1:26). The Second Coming, on the other hand, was predicted in the Old Testament (Daniel 12:1-3; Zechariah 12:10; 14:4). In fact, the oldest prophecy uttered by a prophet was given before the flood of Noah and was of the Second Coming! It was given by Enoch, quoted in Jude 14-15.

The movement of the believer at the Rapture is from earth to heaven; at the Second Coming it is from heaven to earth. At the Rapture, the Lord comes for His saints (1 Thessalonians 4:16), while at the Second Coming the Lord comes with His saints (1 Thessalonians 3:13).

Post-tribulation Problems

One of the strengths of the pre-trib view is that it is better able to harmonize the many events of end-time prophecy because of the above distinctions. There are some awkward difficulties with the post-tribulational view:

1) The post-tribulation view requires that the church be present during the 70th week of Daniel (Daniel 9:24-27), even though it was absent from the first 69. This is in spite of the fact that Dan 9:24 indicates that all 70 weeks are for Israel. We believe the church must depart prior to the 70th week, before the final seven-year period (see our briefing package, Daniel's 70 Weeks, for further study).

2) The post-tribulation view denies the New Testament teaching of imminency--that Christ could come at any moment--since there are intervening events required in that view. We believe there are no signs that must precede the Rapture.

3) The post-tribulation view has difficulties with who will populate the Millennium4 if the Rapture and the Second Coming occur at essentially the same time. Since all believers will be translated at the Rapture and all unbelievers are judged, because no unrighteous shall be allowed to enter Christ's Kingdom, then no one would be left in mortal bodies to start the population base for the Millennium.

4) Similarly, post-tribulationism is not able to explain the sheep and goats judgment after the Second Coming in Matthew 25:3- 46. Where would the believers in mortal bodies come from if they are raptured at the Second Coming? Who would be able to enter into Christ's Kingdom?

5) The Bride of Christ, the church, is made ready to accompany Christ to earth (Revelation 19:7-8, 14) before the Second Coming, but how could this reasonably happen if part of the church is still on the earth awaiting the Second Coming? If the Rapture of the church takes place at the Second Coming, then how does the Bride (the church) also come with Christ at His Return?

While many diligent scholars disagree, most of their views derive from their presuppositions about the Scripture. The more literal a view, the more there is an adoption of a pre-millennial pre-tribulation position. We encourage you to review the various passages yourself and develop your own conclusions. This is our "Blessed Hope," and you will not find a more exciting and rewarding discovery. This is just a brief overview of a complex subject, so apply 2 Timothy 2:15:

"Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."

This topic is perhaps the most demanding from the point of view of requiring the greatest amount of integration of many portions of Scripture. Remember Acts 17:11:
"Receive the Word with all readiness of mind, but search the Scriptures daily to prove whether those things be so."

A more comprehensive treatment of some of these topics is included in our Expositional Commentaries on the book of Daniel and the Thessalonian epistles. And if you don't happen to hold our views, don't worry about it. We'll explain it to you on the way up! Incidentally, Enoch is a model. He was pre-flood, not mid-flood or post-flood!

For more information about these views, we encourage you to contact the Pre-Trib Research Center, 370 L'Enfant Promenade SW, Suite 801, Washington DC, 20024.

 

[China Connection]

I'm not holding my Breathe The rapture.

Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary on the Bible

http://mhc.biblecommenter.com/job/1.htm

1:1-5 Job was prosperous, and yet pious. Though it is hard and rare, it is not impossible for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of heaven. By God's grace the temptations of worldly wealth may be overcome. The account of Job's piety and prosperity comes before the history of his great afflictions, showing that neither will secure from troubles. While Job beheld the harmony and comforts of his sons with satisfaction, his knowledge of the human heart made him fearful for them. He sent and sanctified them, reminding them to examine themselves, to confess their sins, to seek forgiveness; and as one who hoped for acceptance with God through the promised Saviour, he offered a burnt-offering for each. We perceive his care for their souls, his knowledge of the sinful state of man, his entire dependence on God's mercy in the way he had appointed.
1:6-12 Job's afflictions began from the malice of Satan, by the Lord's permission, for wise and holy purposes. There is an evil spirit, the enemy of God, and of all righteousness, who is continually seeking to distress, to lead astray, and, if possible, to destroy those who love God. How far his influence may extend, we cannot say; but probably much unsteadiness and unhappiness in Christians may be ascribed to him. While we are on this earth we are within his reach. Hence it concerns us to be sober and vigilant, 1Pe 5:8. See how Satan censures Job. This is the common way of slanderers, to suggest that which they have no reason to think is true. But as there is nothing we should dread more than really being hypocrites, so there is nothing we need dread less than being called and counted so without cause. It is not wrong to look at the eternal recompence in our obedience; but it is wrong to aim at worldly advantages in our religion. God's people are taken under his special protection; they, and all that belong to them. The blessing of the Lord makes rich; Satan himself owns it. God suffered Job to be tried, as he suffered Peter to be sifted. It is our comfort that God has the devil in a chain, Re 20:1. He has no power to lead men to sin, but what they give him themselves; nor any power to afflict men, but what is given him from above. All this is here described to us after the manner of men. The Scripture speaks thus to teach us that God directs the affairs of the world.

1:13-19 Satan brought Job's troubles upon him on the day that his children began their course of feasting. The troubles all came upon Job at once; while one messenger of evil tidings was speaking, another followed. His dearest and most valuable possessions were his ten children; news is brought him that they are killed. They were taken away when he had most need of them to comfort him under other losses. In God only have we a help present at all times.
1:20-22 Job humbled himself under the hand of God. He reasons from the common state of human life, which he describes. We brought nothing of this world's goods into the world, but have them from others; and it is certain we can carry nothing out, but must leave them to others. Job, under all his losses, is but reduced to his first state. He is but where he must have been at last, and is only unclothed, or unloaded rather, a little sooner than he expected. If we put off our clothes before we go to bed, it is some inconvenience, but it may be the better borne when it is near bed-time. The same who gave hath taken away. See how Job looks above instruments, and keeps his eye upon the First Cause. Afflictions must not divert us from, but quicken us to religion. If in all our troubles we look to the Lord, he will support us. The Lord is righteous. All we have is from his gift; we have forfeited it by sin, and ought not to complain if he takes any part from us. Discontent and impatience charge God with folly. Against these Job carefully watched; and so must we, acknowledging that as God has done right, but we have done wickedly, so God has done wisely, but we have done very foolishly. And may the malice and power of Satan render that Saviour more precious to our souls, who came to destroy the works of the devil; who, for our salvation, suffered from that enemy far more than Job suffered, or we can think.
....................................................................................................

http://www.mrkent.com/devotionals/sschool/richman-laz.htm

There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously everyday. And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou are tormented.

 

[China Connection]

Fox’s Book of Martyrs
Edited by William Byron Forbush

http://bible.crosswalk.com/History/AD/FoxsBookofMartyrs/

This is a book that will never die -- one of the great English classics. . . . Reprinted here in its most complete form, it brings to life the days when "a noble army, men and boys, the matron and the maid," "climbed the steep ascent of heaven, 'mid peril, toil, and pain."

"After the Bible itself, no book so profoundly influenced early Protestant sentiment as the Book of Martyrs. Even in our time it is still a living force. It is more than a record of persecution. It is an arsenal of controversy, a storehouse of romance, as well as a source of edification."


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Chapter 1 History of Christian Martyrs to the First General Persecutions Under Nero
Chapter 2 The Ten Primitive Persecutions
Chapter 3 Persecutions of the Christians in Persia
Chapter 4 Papal Persecutions
Chapter 5 An Account of the Inquisition
Chapter 6 An Account of the Persecutions in Italy, Under the Papacy
Chapter 7 An Account of the Life and Persecutions of John Wickliffe
Chapter 8 An Account of the Persecutions in Bohemia Under the Papacy
Chapter 9 An Account of the Life and Persecutions of Martin Luther
Chapter 10 General Persecutions in Germany
Chapter 11 An Account of the Persecutions in the Netherlands
Chapter 12 The Life and Story of the True Servant and Martyr of God, William Tyndale
Chapter 13 An Account of the Life of John Calvin
Chapter 14 Prior to the Reign of Queen Mary I
Chapter 15 An Account of the Persecutions in Scotland During the Reign of King Henry VIII
Chapter 16 Persecutions in England During the Reign of Queen Mary
Chapter 17 Rise and Progress of the Protestant Religion in Ireland; with an Account of the Barbarous Massacre of 1641
Chapter 18 The Rise, Progress, Persecutions, and Sufferings of the Quakers
Chapter 19 An Account of the Life and Persecutions of John Bunyan
Chapter 20 An Account of the Life of John Wesley
Chapter 21 Persecutions of the French Protestants in the South of France, During the Years 1814 and 1820
Chapter 22 The Beginnings of American Foreign Missions

 

[oldladydoolin]

Well it's God's Word, isn't it, and it's true at all times and for all people, right?
So we can trust that He will have it all worked out for OUR GOOD (remember Romans 8:28).
We can't know the wheres and whys and whens or how it will all happen, but we DO know HIM, we know His character and that He is a promise keeper.

I don't want to be one of those "whose hearts are failing them for fear of the things that are coming upon the earth!" so I consciously try to choose to exercise faith (shaky as it is at times) and tell Satan (the accuser) to lift off and stop creating fear in my mind.

We are going to need to be strong and put faith in the living God because quite honestly I think the bad times have only just begun, but God is faithful and He will bring us through!

GOD is in control. Knowing that he is in control helps me not to panic for he had warned what will come upon the world in the last days and we will not be surprised by the thief in the night.

 

[Sleeping Cobra]

I am sick of this world and the way it has become.

Same Here Kate.

 

[Mongo]

...you have the ingredients for Russian military action in Georgia with NATO troops on the ground. I'm afraid we've been successfully lured into a lethal trap.

Nah!
They won't do anything right now precisely BECAUSE we are on the ground in Georgia.

They want their empire back.
We are weak enough that they know they can get most of it back.
But we are not so weak that they want to fight US.

They'll probably get Georgia back in the fold - but not over our dead bodies. They'll wait...

 

[Copter Doctor]

Russia needs the Georgia corridor to protect its ally - Iran. They are not going to let this one go. This is the makings of the Gog Magog war.

+1

 

[changed]

The rapture is not to spare the Christians form pain, suffering and death, but to remove us from Gods wrath as He deals with an unbelieving world starting with the Antichrist as the first seal in Rev. 6:1. The seals, trumpets, and bowls are JUDGMENTS. We are seeing this stuff line up.

As Christians, trials and tribulations are part of what we deal with, even to the point of death. To live is Christ, to die is gain.


The Tribulation is a time where God deals with Israel, not the Church.



This is why I believe Israel will be in a war with Iran or Syria or both. This has to occur before the Gog/Magog war.

I agree jean. And as Christians we have the Holy Spirit inside of us. At this time, the AC is being restrained. When the Christians are raptured it removes the restraint and the AC can be free to do his work unrestrained on earth.

 

[rmomaha]

For me the Rapture occurs when Christ comes back. Otherwise I say that Christians will be persecuited and they will die during this time to be. I say the Tribulation will separate the goats from the sheep.

 

[CRodgers]

Even though I think a bit of this is pre-mature, I agree with what you are saying.

The Gog Magog war or AKA Ezekiel's war will take place but will start when Israel attacks Iran's nuclear facilities.

In order for Russia to move south into Iranian territory something needs to happen with Turkey. That crossing won't be allowed unless two things happen. Russia invades Turkey or Turkey gets on board with Russia to allow passage.

In any event, I am right with you on the timing. I know it's close, I can feel it. But as far as prepared, I wouldn't worry too much yet about us here. The last time we sent NATO troops to help out with the collapse of the soviet union, American's barely knew what was going on. Life as usual.

I don't see how this time will be much different.

On another front however, I do see something internal within the US going on. But this will be because of policy not a foreign entity invading or making it happen.

 

[GingerN]

I'm not physically ready. No one around me....no friends or relatives or church members....absolutely NO ONE is interested in doing anything to protect themselves. Everyone just wants to go on 'make believing' there is no danger and no need to lift a finger.

I often feel abandoned by God.

This is all so futile and hopeless and sad.

God has NOT abandoned you, darlin. The enemy sometimes makes us feel that way, but God loves us, and will not abandon us. Things are playing out the way that they are supposed to, even though we don't like the direction.
Physically, no we are not ready either, but spiritually is just as important, and despite this temp. doubt you are having, I bet you are closer to that than you think. God has not abandoned you. The reason you are able to get up and go on it because of God's love of you.

(((((((((((hugs)))))))))))and more ((((((((((hugs)))))))))))

 

[China Connection]

Origin of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture Theory

This is what I believe. I posted "Fox’s Book of Martyrs" as an example of Christians that had given up their lives rather than play it safe. Now I expect that God will give us strength for our times of trail but let us off the hook no. I am a long way from what I should be as a Christian but it is God that makes the changes in us and he doesn't rush the job. Everything is done by God. He calls us in the first place. Being a true Christian doesn't leave room for boasting as everything is God's doing.

Even if God took us before the seven years it wouldn't be until after WWIII.


................................................................................................
Origin of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture Theory

http://members.tripod.com/~robertwells/Rapture.html

The pre-tribulation rapture theory is not something that God has revealed to us in these last days. Nor can this belief be found any where in the Bible. Indeed it is a false doctrine that has been perpetuated through well-meaning men for the past few generations.

There is no known writing, or any kind of reference by any writer about the pre-tribulation rapture prior to 1830. None of the early Church fathers or anyone else throughout Church history wrote about the saints being raptured before Jesus Christ comes back. This does not conclusively mean that the theory is false, only that it is a historical fact that this teaching did not exist among the early Christians or the Church fathers or any Christians throughout history until 1830.

The origin of the pre-tribulation rapture theory began with a fifteen-year-old girl named Margaret MacDonald in the town of Port Glasgow, Scotland. Supposedly in 1830 she had a dream or vision that Christians were raptured just prior to the Great Tribulation. In 1831 or 1832 a Presbyterian pastor in London, England named Edward Irving heard about this dream or vision that Miss MacDonald had and started teaching it to his congregation. These are well-known reports among scholars of eschatology.

Something else that is well-documented is the fact that John Nelson Darby, the founder of a group known as the Plymouth Brethren, who after visiting Miss MacDonald also began teaching this new theory.

Later, by 1917, C. I. Scofield had published his improved edition of the Scofield Reference Bible which contained the dispensational pre-tribulation teachings of Darby and others. Soon many Bible Colleges such as Moody Bible Institute and seminaries such as Dallas Theological Seminary became staunch promoters of theology that included the doctrine of a pre-tribulation rapture.

In 1970 Hal Lindsey, who attended Dallas Theological Seminary, popularized this teaching with his book entitled The Late Great Planet Earth. Millions of copies have been sold and a movie by the same title was made.

The widespread acceptance of a doctrine does not make it true. What really matters is not whether some Bible colleges and seminaries teach the pre-tribulation rapture theory, or whether many pastors teach it, or whether many Christians accept it as true; what really matters is what does the Word of God say?

Most Christians in this country are not spiritually ready to go through what is on the horizon if it is as late as many believer think it is. The days of the Great Tribulation will be the worst time that this world has ever seen. And this earth has seen some very bad times. Probably not many Christians will be ready to go through the Great Tribulation, but believing that you are going to be raptured out before it begins is certainly not conducive to spiritual preparation for it. And unfortunately, a great many Christians think they are going to view the coming tribulation from a safe perch up in heaven where they feel they will be nice and safe.
........................................................................................................................

http://reformed-theology.org/html/issue06/pre-trib.htm

Two religious sects in Britain took up Margaret’s idea. One was the Catholic Apostolic Church headed by Edward Irving (1792-1834). This sect believed that because the Second Coming was imminent, they had the gifts of the spirit, such as prophecy and speaking in tongues, as the apostles did.

The other group that adopted Margaret Macdonald’s idea was the Brethren or Plymouth Brethren organized by John Nelson Darby (1800-1882). Darby was educated as a lawyer, became an Anglican priest in 1826, but went on to found the Brethren in 1830. Darby visited the Macdonald home in 1830 and first presented the new pre-tribulation rapture doctrine soon thereafter. The new doctrine was not received unanimously

The pre-trib rapture doctrine was further spread by Cyrus Scofield’s Reference Bible. Began in 1903 with unusually generous funding from wealthy businessmen, it was completed in 1909 and published and promoted by the very prestigious Oxford University Press. It is basically a King James Version with extensive footnote commentaries by Cyrus Scofield and consulting editors.

 

[amazon]

I thought there would be a smaller attack on Isreal. Then a peace treaty. Then during this time of supposed peace a HUGE attack by Russia, and friends. At that time no one helps Israel and God defends her.

If that is the case, and I believe it is, then this is probably not WW3 just more prep work.

Personally, I'm more concerned, at this moment, over the internal working in the US.

I was always taught that we would escape the tribulation. Now I don't know. Either way, this is God's plan so we should have peace about it. On the other hand, we think things are so bad now, BUT we really have no concept of how horrible they are going to become. So maybe the rapture is pre-trib but it's gonna be pretty bad even then. I really don't know anymore. As far as CC's article above. That is a Catholic teaching I believe. There are numerous articles to refute it on the net. I'm not gonna post them. This is not a rapture thread. I do know this...I'm sick-to-death of arguing the Bible w/ people. You believe what you find in the scriptures. I'll believe what I find in the scriptures. We'll all trust God to sort it out.



SoT, God has placed you where you are and whatever you have to go through He will provide you the grace to go through it. I think there is a great spirit of depression sweeping across the US (maybe the world). We all need to fight it. Depression breeds apathy and lethargy. That's the last thing we need. We need to be alert and ready to defend our families and our Constitution and our Faith.

 

[Dozdoats]

Might as well happen sooner as later.

dd

ETA: I thought it was Staples that had the "EASY button," not God...

 

[China Connection]

This is a Catholic take on the Rapture.


Origins of the Rapture

http://www.americancatholic.org/Newsletters/CU/ac1005.asp

The Rapture seems to have been invented by a British religious figure named John Nelson Darby (1800-1882). He was ordained in the Church of Ireland and worked there to convert Catholics away from their folly. He was extremely pessimistic about what he saw as the state of the world and the state of the Church. He eventually left it, joining a dissident group called the Plymouth Brethren of which he soon became a prominent leader.

About 1830, he began teaching that Jesus’ coming at the end of time would be preceded by a “rapture of the saints.” Some members of his own Brethren community objected that this was not biblically founded, but Darby dismissed any criticism. It had, he claimed, been revealed to him by God.

He would eventually distance himself from this group and travel extensively in the 1860s and 1870s in Europe, the United States, and Canada, where his views were very influential. (Especially important is their appearance in the Scofield Reference Bible, which was printed first in 1909. The 1967 edition is still in print and is very popular in many Protestant fundamentalist circles.)

Despite Darby’s denials, scholars have suggested several possible influences on his Rapture views. In 1830, in Port Glasgow, Scotland, a 15-year-old girl, Margaret MacDonald, a follower of a charismatic Scottish preacher, Edward Irving, attended a healing service at which she saw a vision of a two-stage return of Christ. Darby adopted and expanded her vision.

Another suggestion traces the influence to a Jesuit priest, Manuel Lacunza (1731-1801), who was born in Chile but came to Italy in 1767 where he would spend the rest of his life. Posing as a converted Jew (under the pseudonym Juan Josafat Ben Ezra), he wrote, in Spanish, a large apocalyptic work entitled The Coming of the Messiah in Glory and Majesty. The book appeared first in 1811, 10 years after his death. In 1827, it was translated into English by none other than Edward Irving, an acquaintance of and possible influence on Darby. Given Darby’s hatred of Catholics, this possible influence adds an ironic touch!

 

[Tiberius797]

WWIII will not happen over Georgia. Obama will let them do what ever they want and just sit back and do nothing.

 

[mt4design]

Anyone have any thoughts about how we, the USA, getting waist deep in to A'stan and the situation in Pakistan will effect our own ability to stand with George let alone prop up NATO (who is also working in the region)?

Obama may well sit back and let "them" do what "they" want with Georgia but NATO cannot. That oil pipeline to Europe is too important.

Meanwhile, O wants to get us in to a serious and possible quagmire in A'stan, pull us out of Iraq prematurely, and tie the hands of our civilian intelligence resources who could provide us with vitally important information on enemy movements and intentions.

This is all working out in the negative as far as a happy near term future is concerned.

Mike

 

[SarahLynn]

ChinaC, I believe that Paul stated the pre-Tribulation rapture view quite clearly in the book of 1 Thessalonians when he told them not to fear that the tribulation was already taking place (they thought they had missed the Rapture somehow and were living right in the midst of the Tribulation because of all the persecution they were suffering).
Paul reassured them that this had not happened, that there would be "the apostasy" (falling away or apostasy in the church), the removal of the Holy Spirit (and thus believers) from the world, and THEN would the man of sin (the AC) be revealed.

Evidence that believers held to a pre-trib belief in the early centuries has been found:

Epharaem the Syrian said, in 373 AD, "For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins."

This text was originally a sermon called On the Last Times, the Anti-christ, and the End of the World. There are four existing Latin manuscripts (the Parisinus, the Augiensis, the Barberini, and the St. Gallen) ascribed to St. Ephraem or to St. Isidore . Some scholars believe this text was written by some unknown writer in the sixth century and was derived from the original Ephraem.4

The sermon describes the events of the last days, beginning with the rapture, the Great Tribulation of 3 1/2 years duration under the Antichrist's rule, followed by the Second Coming of Christ. In Ephraem's book The Book of the Cave of Treasures, written about 370 A.D., he expressed his belief that the 69th week of Daniel ended with the rejection and crucifixion of Jesus the Messiah.5
http://www.khouse.org/articles/1995/39/

I think much confusion arises when believers don't understand the TWO distinct aspects to Christ's return to earth.

His return in the Rapture is described as being "as a thief in the night," a return which will catch many people, even believers, unawares, whereas the second phase of His return, His physical bodily return, is to the Mount of Olives and can be calculated to the day counting from the Anti-Christ's abomination of desolation in the temple, 3 1/2 years after the signing of the peace treaty with Israel.
Every eye will see Him at this time whereas the Rapture return is secret and instantaneous (" in the twinkling of an eye"). No one can know the day or the hour of the Rapture but it is relatively easy to know when the Return to the Mt. of Olives is.

At the Rapture return, Christ meets the believers past and present in the air. Christ and all believers go to be with the Lord in heaven, many believe for the "Judgement Seat of Christ" and to await the judgements of God on the unbelieving earth. We don't know how much time lapses between the Rapture and the beginning of the Tribulation.

At the Mt. of Olives return of Christ, He sets foot on the Mt. of Olives and sets up His Kingdom of a Thousand Years.

People will be eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage at the Rapture return of Christ. They will expect nothing extraordinary to happen, whereas at Christ's return to the Mt. of Olives, no one who believes will be surprised to see Him, and no one will be living life as usual, as it is described as taking place at the height of Armageddon!


The past two thousand years, the focus has been on the church, now, I believe, God is turning His attention back to Israel. He has brought them back after over two thousand years of dispersion to their land, never to be cast out again. The Tribulation is called the "time of Jacob's Trouble" in Scripture because God is dealing with them and their relationship with Him, and not with the Church. The judgements of God in the Tribulation are upon an unbelieving world and for the way they treat Israel.

These are some of the reasons for my belief in a pre-tribulation Rapture.
I know there are objections to all the views, and what REALLY matters is that we hold fast to our faith and trust in Christ, no matter what trials and tribulations occur here on this earth in this present life.

We're all here for each other, to love, uplift and encourage one another. Remember, Psalms says our life is but a vapor, it's like the flower that comes up in the morning and is gathered dead and dry at night.
WHAT COUNTS is what we do for Jesus in this life, not how long or happy our life is.

 

[SarahLynn]

ChinaC, I believe that Paul stated the pre-Tribulation rapture view quite clearly in the book of 1 Thessalonians when he told them not to fear that the tribulation was already taking place (they thought they had missed the Rapture somehow and were living right in the midst of the Tribulation because of all the persecution they were suffering).
Paul reassured them that this had not happened, that there would be "the apostasy" (falling away or apostasy in the church), the removal of the Holy Spirit (and thus believers) from the world, and THEN would the man of sin (the AC) be revealed.

Evidence that believers held to a pre-trib belief in the early centuries has been found:

Epharaem the Syrian said, in 373 AD, "For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins."

This text was originally a sermon called On the Last Times, the Anti-christ, and the End of the World. There are four existing Latin manuscripts (the Parisinus, the Augiensis, the Barberini, and the St. Gallen) ascribed to St. Ephraem or to St. Isidore . Some scholars believe this text was written by some unknown writer in the sixth century and was derived from the original Ephraem.4

The sermon describes the events of the last days, beginning with the rapture, the Great Tribulation of 3 1/2 years duration under the Antichrist's rule, followed by the Second Coming of Christ. In Ephraem's book The Book of the Cave of Treasures, written about 370 A.D., he expressed his belief that the 69th week of Daniel ended with the rejection and crucifixion of Jesus the Messiah.5
http://www.khouse.org/articles/1995/39/

I think much confusion arises when believers don't understand the TWO distinct aspects to Christ's return to earth.

His return in the Rapture is described as being "as a thief in the night," a return which will catch many people, even believers, unawares, whereas the second phase of His return, His physical bodily return, is to the Mount of Olives and can be calculated to the day counting from the Anti-Christ's abomination of desolation in the temple, 3 1/2 years after the signing of the peace treaty with Israel.
Every eye will see Him at this time whereas the Rapture return is secret and instantaneous (" in the twinkling of an eye"). No one can know the day or the hour of the Rapture but it is relatively easy to know when the Return to the Mt. of Olives is.

At the Rapture return, Christ meets the believers past and present in the air. Christ and all believers go to be with the Lord in heaven, many believe for the "Judgement Seat of Christ" and to await the judgements of God on the unbelieving earth. We don't know how much time lapses between the Rapture and the beginning of the Tribulation.

At the Mt. of Olives return of Christ, He sets foot on the Mt. of Olives and sets up His Kingdom of a Thousand Years.

People will be eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage at the Rapture return of Christ. They will expect nothing extraordinary to happen, whereas at Christ's return to the Mt. of Olives, no one who believes will be surprised to see Him, and no one will be living life as usual, as it is described as taking place at the height of Armageddon!


The past two thousand years, the focus has been on the church, now, I believe, God is turning His attention back to Israel. He has brought them back after over two thousand years of dispersion to their land, never to be cast out again. The Tribulation is called the "time of Jacob's Trouble" in Scripture because God is dealing with them and their relationship with Him, and not with the Church. The judgements of God in the Tribulation are upon an unbelieving world and for the way they treat Israel.

These are some of the reasons for my belief in a pre-tribulation Rapture.
I know there are objections to all the views, and what REALLY matters is that we hold fast to our faith and trust in Christ, no matter what trials and tribulations occur here on this earth in this present life.

If I may encourage my fellow believers: We're all here for each other, to love, uplift and encourage one another. Remember, Psalms says our life is but a vapor, it's like the flower that comes up in the morning and is gathered dead and dry at night.
WHAT COUNTS is what we do for Jesus in this life, not how long or happy our life is.

 

[DennisRGH]

There is NO pre-trib rapture.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones; and they sat upon them, and judgment was given to them; and the souls of those beheaded on account of the testimony of Jesus, and on account of the word of God; and those who had not done homage to the beast nor to his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and hand; and they lived and reigned with the Christ a thousand years:

Note.....BEHEADED. (think muzzie executioners)

You will either be here for the pre-wrath rapture, or be killed in the "tribulation" (of the saints - which is a specific 3.5 year period)....(if you don't die of natural causes sooner).

The pre-trib rapture doctrine WILL produce confusion (as evidenced by what some posters here are expressing). The pre-trib rapture doctrine will leave people WEAKENED in their faith as they await the rapture that is not forthcoming.......the the rapture does not precede the "tribulation" of the saints" (which is something that comes from satan), but WILL precede the wrath of God (upon the SECULAR or false religions of the world).

If you want to know the truth about rapture timing, then I suggest you go to the following website (BEFORE lashing out at me personally) and read:

http://prewrathministries.org/prewrath.html

May GOD lead you to the truth of the Rapture timing. And may HE give you the comfort and courage that your SOUL needs, to persevere to the end....in Jesus name, Amen.



.

 

[brandyh29]

I don't believe there will be a rapture either. The bible is full of so many examples of people being martyred, why would it be different this time? Noah's Ark is a good example. The verses in the post above state that the end will be 'as in the days of Noah'. Noah wasn't raptured out of here. He was given an *ark. He was still here on Earth. Also, the end is all about Satan and his war against the Saints. How will he go to war against the Saints, if they're all gone??? There is a verse, I dont know it off the top of my head, that says something to the effect that Satan will be given power to make war against the saints, and to overcome them. Its really common sense. Im no scholar by any means and I can even understand that.

 

[dieseltrooper]

How did this become a "rapture" debate thread? I haven't been concerned about that issue for some time. It seems to divide believers rather than unite. The end result is the same.
If the enemy comes for my head, I hope to die of multiple GSWs first!

 

[SarahLynn]

There is NO pre-trib rapture.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones; and they sat upon them, and judgment was given to them; and the souls of those beheaded on account of the testimony of Jesus, and on account of the word of God; and those who had not done homage to the beast nor to his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and hand; and they lived and reigned with the Christ a thousand years:

Note.....BEHEADED. (think muzzie executioners)

You will either be here for the pre-wrath rapture, or be killed in the "tribulation" (of the saints - which is a specific 3.5 year period)....(if you don't die of natural causes sooner).

The pre-trib rapture doctrine WILL produce confusion (as evidenced by what some posters here are expressing). The pre-trib rapture doctrine will leave people WEAKENED in their faith as they await the rapture that is not forthcoming.......the the rapture does not precede the "tribulation" of the saints" (which is something that comes from satan), but WILL precede the wrath of God (upon the SECULAR or false religions of the world).

If you want to know the truth about rapture timing, then I suggest you go to the following website (BEFORE lashing out at me personally) and read:

http://prewrathministries.org/prewrath.html

May GOD lead you to the truth of the Rapture timing. And may HE give you the comfort and courage that your SOUL needs, to persevere to the end....in Jesus name, Amen.



.

Not necessarily so, as we know that there will be millions of people who come to Christ DURING the Tribulation. Those could well be the ones who are beheaded for their faith.
It could well be that the disappearance of millions of Christians in the Rapture has something to do with convincing the current unbelievers that the Bible is for real!

 

[Satanta]

Why is the rapture even on the table? As with the rest if and when it happens has zero to do with things. If it hapens cool but I am sure as hell no going to sit in my flower garden humming and waiting for it.

Yu do not prep and plan for "The Best Case Scenario" unless you are an idiot.

Hell, if God os gonna come down here and fly yer ass to the stars then why the hell are you here on this board?

 

[jed turtle]

Why is the rapture even on the table? As with the rest if and when it happens has zero to do with things. If it hapens cool but I am sure as hell no going to sit in my flower garden humming and waiting for it.

Yu do not prep and plan for "The Best Case Scenario" unless you are an idiot.

Hell, if God os gonna come down here and fly yer ass to the stars then why the hell are you here on this board?

as i currently hold the Pre-Tribulation Rapture belief (again), and since i am a long term member of the board, i'd like to address this question. at the bottom of every response i make to any thread there has almost always been a reference to the Lord or a line of scripture. and i often try to make an impression on any viewers that it IS important that one have a relationship with God. even if i personally am a poor example of a christian.

my greater understanding from participating in the board has allowed my preparedness to cope with ordinary and extraordinary challenges to grow to a stronger position to deal with them. and if i am raptured suddenly, i leave behind a blessing to those in my family or neighborhood who will find bibles in amongst the beans and bullets.

 

[jim_bo]

Why is the rapture even on the table? As with the rest if and when it happens has zero to do with things. If it hapens cool but I am sure as hell no going to sit in my flower garden humming and waiting for it.

Yu do not prep and plan for "The Best Case Scenario" unless you are an idiot.

Hell, if God os gonna come down here and fly yer ass to the stars then why the hell are you here on this board?

Jim_bo

 

[Sky]

thanks jed turtle


my greater understanding from participating in the board has allowed my preparedness to cope with ordinary and extraordinary challenges to grow to a stronger position to deal with them. and if i am raptured suddenly, i leave behind a blessing to those in my family or neighborhood who will find bibles in amongst the beans and bullets.

 

[Satanta]

Hey Jed-you and me both as far as being lesser examples.

My point was-if one =Truly+ be;ieves God is going to save them from bad things then why prep for bad things. I am not a pre-Tribber. I hope I am wrong but am not placing my bets on it.

But I still stand by my earlier post that it seems the more 'The Faithful' scream about their faith then the less real faith they have. I have seen too many in my lifetime-including ministers who preach it but when something bad happens they wail about it to the people in their churches and moan at God and cannot understand God rarely carries anyone thru life-even The Christ had to work for a living.

 

[denfoote]

I dunno when the Raptus, which is the Latin translation of a Greek word which describes the act of a Father grabbing His child by the collar and pulling him from danger at the last second, will occur, but I DO know that I'm in the palm of Jesus' hand and He will not let me fall out!!

John 10:27-29 (New King James Version)

27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.

28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.

29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand.

 

[Cyndryn]

as i currently hold the Pre-Tribulation Rapture belief (again), and since i am a long term member of the board, i'd like to address this question. at the bottom of every response i make to any thread there has almost always been a reference to the Lord or a line of scripture. and i often try to make an impression on any viewers that it IS important that one have a relationship with God. even if i personally am a poor example of a christian.

my greater understanding from participating in the board has allowed my preparedness to cope with ordinary and extraordinary challenges to grow to a stronger position to deal with them. and if i am raptured suddenly, i leave behind a blessing to those in my family or neighborhood who will find bibles in amongst the beans and bullets.

 

[Ragnarok]

Obviously, as I've reiterated here for 6 years, I'm expecting a full-scale Russian nuclear attack that will decimate the U.S. in an hour's time (this is spelled clearly in the Book of Revelation in my mind....especially chapter 8):

SoT, I agree with you about the attack... We are gonna get wiped out.

Your opinion, IMHO, Jeremiah 50-51 details the whole account. After reading those two chapters, what do you think?

 

[Fred's Horseradish]

We will go through any tribualation that comes. There have been such for ages. Burning at the stack by the RCC.

The pre-trib rapture is an American thing. Americans are too good to suffer. Big, huge motor homes, hummers, mansions (now burning in Santa Barbara.)

 

[DoomBuggy]

Obviously, as I've reiterated here for 6 years, I'm expecting a full-scale Russian nuclear attack that will decimate the U.S. in an hour's time (this is spelled clearly in the Book of Revelation in my mind....especially chapter 8):

Makes me recall a message from David Wilkerson who tells us that in one hour everything is going to change...

 

[DennisRGH]

Fred's Horseradish posted:
The pre-trib rapture is an American thing. Americans are too good to suffer. Big, huge motor homes, hummers, mansions (now burning in Santa Barbara.)

......yuppers....and all that horseradish has given Fred some good ole, down to earth.... horse sense

on top of that, WW3 is not going to happen because of anything that happens in Georgia. NOT going to happen. Why would Russia risk MAD (from U.S. and Nato subs)?

However.......all it would take is for America to be destroyed/disabled by ???????????? and all bets would be off (so to speak) ....and that's putting it mildly. Without America's global policing, the world would go "ballistic"....and you know what THAT means.





.

 

[Ragnarok]

As far as the rapture topic goes. Just quit going to all the various sites and reading man's interpretations, it will just confuse you.

Open God's book and you will see it plain as day. Just read His word...

No, we are not appointed to wrath, however, the tribulation is not His wrath.



Let's take a look at what the BIBLE saysand set aside the teachings of man for a moment...



Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. -- Revelation 3:10



I have to question why some believe that "being kept" from tribulation means we have to be taken out of the world?

It is a fact, Jesus is not a liar...so... was He lying when he prayed the following?



John 17:15 - " I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. "

John 17:20 -" Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; "



It is pretty clear that the Lord prayed that all who believe on the Lord, not be taken out of the world.....but instead kept from evil while yet here on earth. Remember, this is the prayer of Christ Jesus...

A popular verse used by the Pre-Trib camp is:

1Th 4:16 - " For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: "

Now the pre-Trib doctrine says that the rapture will take place and no one left behind will realize it, yet this verse says Jesus will "shout", "yell with the voice of the archangel", and "blow a trumpet (shofar)", seems like quite a commotion for no one to notice? Also,according to this verse, the dead in Christ rise before the believers are raptured. So if we can determine when the the dead are raised, we would have an accurate time frame as to the timing of the rapture..



Joh 6:40 - " And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. "


Joh 6:44 - " No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. "


Joh 6:54 - " Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. "

Joh 11:24 - " Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. "



Thesselonians goes on to say:


1Th 4:17 - " Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. "



We who are alive MEET in the clouds with the Lord in THE AIR. We aren't on the way to Heaven and nowhere in the Bible does it say such a thing... We meet Jesus in the air, we are taken out of the world just prior to the final destruction.

Then how about the seperation of the "wheat from the tares"? When does that take place?


Matt 13:39 - " The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. "



But not just one example from Jesus, Himself, but two!



Matt 13:47-49 - " Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind: Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away. So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just. "



Corinthians talks about how God "keeps us" from tribulation, and it isn't in the rapture.


1 Cor 10:13 - " There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God [is] faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear [it]. "



Jesus has stated that the end times will be as the days of Lot and Noah. How were those days?



Luke 17:28-29 - " Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed [them] all. "



The same day Lot was delivered, God judged Sodom and Gommorah... Not seven years earlier.



Matt 24:37-39- " And as [were] the days of Noah, so shall be the coming of the Son of man. For as in those days which were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and they knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall be the coming of the Son of man. "



Ditto, the same day the elect were saved the world was judged.

I've seen the arguement that Jesus said we are to be raptured befor the Anti-Christ reveals himself, but what Jesus really said was:


2Th 2:3 - " Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, AND that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; "



Notice that word "and", we will ALL see the rise of the Anti-Christ to power.


Mat 24:29-31 - " But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send forth his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. "



There it is in black and white, folks. Immediately after the tribulation the elect are gathered. It doesn't get clearer than that and either you believe God at His word or you don't.


So much is read into that one verse ( Rev 3:10 ), it seems the whole basis of the pre-trib rapture, yet so many verses are totally disregarded that point to post trib/pre-wrath.

Rev 3:10 says absolutely nothing about the rapture... It merely states that through the grace of God we will be able to over come the tribulation to come.