DISASTER Fukushima Reactor Disaster: MAIN THREAD - Five Year Anniversary

[Be Well]

I saw you post that photo on Ticker Forum just a bit ago. Do you read Japanese, wondering what the article with the photo says.

 

[Countrymouse]

I don't believe what the Japanese officials are telling the public. How do I know when to start taking KI tablets? I don't want to take longer than necessary. Here's a snip from Shane's site that gives the FDA's recommendations on taking KI.


HOW AND WHEN TO TAKE POTASSIUM IODIDE

Potassium iodide should be taken as soon as possible after public health officials tell you. You should take one dose every 24 hours. More will not help you because the thyroid can "hold" only limited amounts of iodine. Larger doses will increase the risk of side effects. You will probably be told not to take the drug for more than 10 days.

So....what do we do if the airborne radiation is present for MORE than 10 days? Keep taking it and risk the harm from that, or stop and risk the dangers of the radiation? Shane?

 

[Countrymouse]

Handy charts you can print out for reference.

CAN'T "print this out" because it won't let me copy the picture and there is no link to go to for the original---can you please give us the link to the original site?

 

[Jeffrey Thomason]

I saw you post that photo on Ticker Forum just a bit ago. Do you read Japanese, wondering what the article with the photo says.

A bit.. very much still a student, but I have tools at my disposal to help. The article itself is just about the explosion. The caption for the photo reads:

The explosion blew off the top of the reactor building, leaving behind only the skeletal frame. Fukushima Daiichi Reactor #1 via TEPCO.

 

[Double_A]

In a nutshell, the fuel rods melt into a lava-type material and the reactor core itself is compromised. At that point, an intact containment structure might keep the reaction mass contained for a time, but the fear would be that the mass would eventually burn through the structure, into the environment, where it could hit groundwater; radioactive sludge hitting H2O leads to steam type explosions, with fallout being blown into the atmosphere.

The fear for us would be the fallout making in into the jetstream and then falling on us - "fallout". We've taken fallout from foreign nuclear tests, but there's never been a full-out "China Syndrome" so results might well be different. IIRC Chernobyl was different - there was a fire from the outside air hitting the exposed reactor core that spread the contamination, not the fuel elements interacting with groundwater. So, we're going ever farther into unknown territory.

and circle the globe 9 times before dissipating..... some will recognize that

 

[Catbird]

The Google translation of the article that goes with the pic that JT posted doesn't make a lot of sense but doesn't seem to have any new info that hasn't already been posted.

 

[Double_A]

So....what do we do if the airborne radiation is present for MORE than 10 days? Keep taking it and risk the harm from that, or stop and risk the dangers of the radiation? Shane?

You realize that the KI will only protect the thyroid, no other organs. It does not protect the entire body.

 

[Jeffrey Thomason]

Great observation from another forum:

Yup, just as I thought. The top of the building is thin-walled and simply storage for a crane (and probably other stuff.)

Hydrogen is light - any produced would have ended up in that area. A spark to set it off and it blows out the thin walls, leaving the containment building main structure totally intact.

 

[onetimer]

Great pic

Wonder what the shockwave did to the structure. It did destroy the gauge used to determine water level.

 

[SSTemplar]

Thomason. That is a good cutaway of a boiling water reactor. The stacks you see beside each building is where the off gassing from the reactor usualy goes. Don't know why hydrogen would accumalate in the building,that would be unusual.

 

[Red Baron]

Great pic

Wonder what the shockwave did to the structure. It did destroy the gauge used to determine water level.

The explosion had to have created havoc inside the outer containment building. Imagine all the electrical circuits, water pipes, computer gear, sushi bar (!) or whatever.

The fact that they are attempting to scuttle the reactor by flooding it with seawater and boron is a flat out admission the reactor is literally out of the operators control. It truly is a desperete last chance effort that has never been done before in the real world.

 

[NBCsurvivor]

and circle the globe 9 times before dissipating..... some will recognize that

That's all I've been thinking about.

 

[Countrymouse]

The explosion had to have created havoc inside the outer containment building. Imagine all the electrical circuits, water pipes, computer gear, sushi bar (!) or whatever.

The fact that they are attempting to scuttle the reactor by flooding it with seawater and boron is a flat out admission the reactor is literally out of the operators control. It truly is a desperete last chance effort that has never been done before in the real world.

I keep hearing that the presence of radioactive CESIUM and radioactive IODINE in the atmosphere around the plant immediately after the explosion would indicate the core IS MELTING DOWN--can you speculate for us as to whether, if these substances are escaping, that means the containment dome or reactor housing itself (or both) ARE compromised, and a meltdown is in progress???

 

[Countrymouse]

I keep hearing that the presence of radioactive CESIUM and radioactive IODINE in the atmosphere around the plant immediately after the explosion would indicate the core IS MELTING DOWN--can you speculate for us as to whether, if these substances are escaping, that means the containment dome or reactor housing itself (or both) ARE compromised, and a meltdown is in progress???

Never mind---NWPhotgrapher's new thread just answered that question:

http://greenmountaindaily.com/diary...ontainment-integrity-and-is-leaking-radiation

God help us.


The Fukushima nuclear plant lost containment integrity and is leaking radiation

 

[Jeffrey Thomason]

Thomason. That is a good cutaway of a boiling water reactor. The stacks you see beside each building is where the off gassing from the reactor usualy goes. Don't know why hydrogen would accumalate in the building,that would be unusual.

Hydrogen would be released from the exposed fuel coming into contact with water, hydrogen is a tiny atom and can easily escape the containment vessel, and since it's lighter then air would rise to the top of the building.

 

[DannyBoy]

Does anyone know how effective Shane's KI tablets are if the expiration date is 2006. I happen to have a few bottles around from that time. I know his website said that they will still be effective, but does any one have any additional information?

What I remember from Shane some time back is that it certainly is good for a few years beyond the expiration date, but it also certainly does become less effective over time. That is why iodine bio type water filters much beyond their date need to be tossed out. I am in the same situation, I will prolly be ordering a few more shortly, there will prolly be a run on the stuff...

edited to add... just noticed Shanes post above, yeah, there is a run on it!!
Dan

 

[Catbird]

My DH used to be a nuke plant operator... until the ulcers got to him.

I wouldn't want anyone here to construe this as advice - we all have to look at the available info and make our own informed decisions.

But so far, his thinking is that there has only been a minor release and that, from what we know right now, it doesn't look like containment has been breached. That's his opinion, and mine FWIW.

I think that, if there was any chance that containment had been breached, we'd be seeing something similar to what we saw at Chernobyl. There would be heavy equipment in there trying to cover/bury the containment chamber inside of what's left of the cement building. So far, there hasn't been any sign of that happening as far as I can find. That may change after daybreak.

As the article below mentions, Russia has stepped up monitoring for radiation and so far, they haven't reported any. I'm pretty sure that they'll start screaming pretty loud if/when they do, so their silence is a good sign.

I am concerned by the pattern of inaccuracy/invalidity of the info being released by the Japanese gov't, TEPCO and the Japanese Nuclear Safety Committee. I don't think that they're lying. I do think that it's a classic example of "the authorities" being behind the curve... events are outpacing their ability to keeping the public and the world informed.

That's why I think it's important for us to work together to get as much info as we can. Things might be contained for now but as Archetype said, we are going into unknown territory. And the threat of aftershocks is still strong which could catapult this into an even larger crisis.

From: http://sadailynews24.com/russia-reinforces-radiation-controls-909653.htm

"Russia reinforces radiation controls

9:49 AM By Sapa

Russia on Saturday was closely monitoring radiation levels in its Far Eastern regions amid fears of a possible Nuclear meltdown in Japan following a devastating earthquake, officials say.


Test results have so far been normal and a tsunami alert for the Kuril Island chain has been cancelled, the emergencies ministry said on Saturday.

"In connection with a radiation leak at a nuclear power station in Japan, control over background radiation in the Sakhalin region has been reinforced," the ministry said in a statement, adding that test results had been normal so far.

Background radiation levels were also being watched in the country's other Far Eastern regions such as Primorye, Kamchatka and Khabarovsk, ministry spokesman Sergei Viktorov told AFP."

 

[oyster_777]

What direction is smoke drifting? How long till it hits north american mainland?

 

[truthseeker]

Thought to be hydrogen explosion. Heavily fortified reactor vessel inside believed to be still intact (for now.) Fuel rods were already slightly exposed from water. Media stating radiation level has actually decreased since explosion, however container building explosion likely took out cranes and other devices necessary to manipulate core material and/or manipulate emergency cooling methods. Evacuation zone moved out to 20 Km. Sea water now being considered for emergency cooling

I highly doubt it, the building that blew up had 6 feet of concrete walls. It didnt blow because a pipoe burdt or something. I would think that if a meltdown didnt cause explosion, the the explosion would have destroyed anything to prevent a melt down. I think a second chenobyl just occured.

 

[MickeyMouse]

Cesium and Radioactive iodine are fission by-products. They are normally contained INSIDE the zirconium clad fuel rods. While very minute quantites are normally found in reactor coolant, more than that indicates failure of some fuel rods. They get an idea of how extensive the meltdown is by the amount of these and other fission by-products are in the coolant.

For coolant or contaminates of same to be found outside the reactor indicates leakage. Pressure releases via safety valves, broken piping, that sort of thing can account for that coolant release. Need not have a vessel or contaiment breach for such a release.


IMHO below is based PURELY on speculation. Some piping damage occurred in the original quake. That could have been near the reactor in non-accessable areas, outside the reactor primary containment or even outside the plant building in things like water tanks, storage ponds and the piping to them. Someone earlier commented intake screens may have been clogged with mud during the tsunami (ya think?). Any of these things would have made safely shutting down the reactor extremely difficult or impossible. I suspect it was dead the moment the quake hit and has just taken this long to become apparent how bad. Fuel melting began yesterday. The plant was unsalvagable not long after. They will cool it, defuel it (years from now) and bury it.

 

[NBCsurvivor]

So, about the heavy equiptment being used to help contain everything.

How are the roads and the remaining infrastructure or for that matter the buildings and personnel used to run that equiptment AFTER the quake and resulting tsunami?

not trying to be a smartass. Serious question.

 

[MickeyMouse]

I highly doubt it, the building that blew up had 6 feet of concrete walls. It didnt blow because a pipoe burdt or something. I would think that if a meltdown didnt cause explosion, the the explosion would have destroyed anything to prevent a melt down. I think a second chenobyl just occured.

Saw a diagram of the building elsewhere on the web. The part of the building blown away is a fairly thin skin ABOVE the main reactor containment, in an area that encloses the overhead crane used for refueling. The upper biologic shield over the reactor is a removable lid that allows access to the reactor head and forms part of the floor of the destroyed section of building. I'll go with hydrogen at this point as it would rise into the top of the building and could create just such n explosion. A reactor explosion (steam, they aren't CAPABLE of a nuclear explosion) would have released FAR more radiation than has been reported.

 

[DannyBoy]

So, about the heavy equiptment being used to help contain everything.

How are the roads and the remaining infrastructure or for that matter the buildings and personnel used to run that equiptment AFTER the quake and resulting tsunami?

not trying to be a smartass. Serious question.

I hope I am wrong, but it is not likely the roads are passable... they were pretty close to the center of the whole thing. The pics I have seen are showing everything washed out. I am wondering how they even got the four guys wounded in the explosion out of there. Who knows though...

Dan

 

[Catbird]

So, about the heavy equiptment being used to help contain everything.

How are the roads and the remaining infrastructure or for that matter the buildings and personnel used to run that equiptment AFTER the quake and resulting tsunami?

not trying to be a smartass. Serious question.

I wondered about that too. There are heavy lift choppers available. I'm pretty sure that's how they got the emergency generators in there last night. And I do remember them being used at Chernobyl also. Japanese SDF is on the scene and I'm sure they have access to some sort of heavy equipment on a priority basis. The Fukushima plant is on the coast so they could also use also bring in crane barges.

Like I said, I think we'll know more after daybreak.

 

[Red Baron]

Japan attempts to cool nuclear reactor

From: NewsCore March 13, 2011 7:41AM

RACING against time, Japanese officials launched an unprecedented scheme to cool a dangerously crippled nuclear reactor while rescue workers battled a panorama of devastation to locate some of the more than 10,000 unaccounted for following Friday's monster earthquake and tsunami.

An explosion sent huge clouds of smoke billowing into the air Saturday at the Fukushima plant, triggering fears of a nuclear meltdown on the heels of the 8.9 earthquake that spawned a 10 meter wall of water so ferocious it washed away whole towns.

TV channels warned nearby residents to stay indoors, turn off airconditioners and not to drink tap water. People going outside were also told to avoid exposing their skin and to cover their faces with masks and wet towels.

The blast reportedly left two people dead and several workers injured, Sky News reported.

Top government officials, announcing they would use seawater to attempt to cool the reactor, tried to reassure the nation.

"The latest explosion wasn't of a kind that would come with a significant leakage of radiation," Yukio Edano, the chief cabinet secretary, said. "It's our expectation that we can bring this nuclear-power plant under control, using this unprecedented step of filling the containment structure with seawater."

However, Stratfor, a company that provides global intelligence, said its nuclear science and engineering sources found statements the Unit 1 reactor container had not been breached "highly dubious. Reports of iodine and cesium outside the plant indicate the reactor's containment structure has been breached," it said.

And the business news agency Nikkei reported the Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency (NISA) said yesterday afternoon the explosion at the Fukushima No. 1 nuclear plant could only have been caused by a meltdown of the reactor core.

At the same time, Fuji TV reported a red alert at Reactor 2 at the nuclear plant, indicating there may be a problem there as well, Fox News reported.

An evacuation order for tens of thousands of residents around the plant was expanded to 20 kilometers.

more,

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/br...-nuclear-reactor/story-e6frf7jx-1226020536901

 

[eXe]

Just saw this on twitter..

BreakingNews :About 140,000 evacuated from area of Japan nuke plants, IAEA reports - Reuters

 

[Countrymouse]

But they said they "did" detect radioactive cesium and iodine around the building after the explosion---so despite their claims that it was "just" a hydrogen explosion that "only" blew off the thin top of the outer building----well, given the radioactive isotopes they're picking up now in the atmosphere---doesn't that clearly indicate they're hiding the truth, and that this is in truth FAR worse than they are yet admitting?

 

[Jeffrey Thomason]

But they said they "did" detect radioactive cesium and iodine around the building after the explosion---so despite their claims that it was "just" a hydrogen explosion that "only" blew off the thin top of the outer building----well, given the radioactive isotopes they're picking up now in the atmosphere---doesn't that clearly indicate they're hiding the truth, and that this is in truth FAR worse than they are yet admitting?

The cesium and iodine were detected BEFORE the explosion.. like.. hours before. Most likely a result of the fuel coming into contact with air (i.e. the water level dropped and exposed the core), released when they did venting to try and pump water in.

 

[night driver]

But they said they "did" detect radioactive cesium and iodine around the building after the explosion---so despite their claims that it was "just" a hydrogen explosion that "only" blew off the thin top of the outer building----well, given the radioactive isotopes they're picking up now in the atmosphere---doesn't that clearly indicate they're hiding the truth, and that this is in truth FAR worse than they are yet admitting?

Not exactly. Backing up a few posts, you'll see that cesium and iodine aer present in coolant etc, and that it is not out of the question to see SOME of these released WITHOUT a containment breach...ie WITHOUT a breach of the actual reactor containment vessel.

 

[Catbird]

But they said they "did" detect radioactive cesium and iodine around the building after the explosion---so despite their claims that it was "just" a hydrogen explosion that "only" blew off the thin top of the outer building----well, given the radioactive isotopes they're picking up now in the atmosphere---doesn't that clearly indicate they're hiding the truth, and that this is in truth FAR worse than they are yet admitting?

And the amounts of elements being measured actually DECREASED after the explosion.

 

[Zulu Cowboy]

Does anyone know how effective Shane's KI tablets are if the expiration date is 2006. I happen to have a few bottles around from that time. I know his website said that they will still be effective, but does any one have any additional information?

http://www.hps.org/publicinformation/ate/q7000.html

From the Health Physics Society website...

Quote: "From FDA guidance on shelf-life extension, studies over many years have confirmed that none of the components of KI tablets, including the active ingredient, has any significant potential for chemical degradation or interaction with other components or with components of the container closure system when stored according to labeled directions. To date, the only observed changes during stability (shelf-life) testing have been the failure of some batches of KI tablets to meet dissolution specifications. Some tablets tested required slightly longer than the specified time to achieve dissolution. Even in the case of a failure of this sort, the product remains usable. In such cases, instructions can be provided to crush the tablets and mix them with a juice or other liquid prior to administration as suggested for emergency pediatric dosing."

Ronald E. Goans, PhD, MD, MPH

- - - - - - - - -
In other words...don't worry about the expiration date.


Zulu Cowboy

- - - - - - - - -

In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, the material in this post is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for research and educational purposes…

 

[Catbird]

At the same time, Fuji TV reported a red alert at Reactor 2 at the nuclear plant, indicating there may be a problem there as well, Fox News reported.

We aren't hearing enough about the status of the 2nd plant and it's really hard to find any current info on it.

 

[Red Baron]

But they said they "did" detect radioactive cesium and iodine around the building after the explosion---so despite their claims that it was "just" a hydrogen explosion that "only" blew off the thin top of the outer building----well, given the radioactive isotopes they're picking up now in the atmosphere---doesn't that clearly indicate they're hiding the truth, and that this is in truth FAR worse than they are yet admitting?

It is -very- hard for the Japanese to admit any sort of failure. This will seriously inhibit their candor and assesment of their own situation. This denial syndrome may have seriously hurt their ability to rapidly mitigate what is now transpiring.

The current situation is -way- beyond the Three Mile Island event.

However, I do not believe the reactor core is in full meltdown mode at this time, but I do believe the core at Reactor #1 is damaged.

Much remains to be seen. That entire facility is severely compromised. There are three other reactors there with many of the same coolant problems.

At this point, any "offical" statements from the Japanese authorities are highly suspect.

Funny how when the "Rubber Meets The Road" the authorities always circle the wagons and meter out information in little teeny tiny dribs and drabs.

I do feel badly for the Japanese however. A "Nuclear Event" is the absolute worst thing that could happen to their national psyche. It really strikes at their core fears and only compounds the devastation already wrought by the earthquake and tsunamis.

 

[Catbird]

Here we go again...


"Reuters

1. Japan nuclear safety agency says there is a possibility at least 9 people have been exposed to radiation from Fukushima facility less than 5 seconds ago via web

2. FLASH: Japan's nuclear safety agency says Fukushima Daiichi Nuclear Plant No. 3 reactor's emergency cooling system not functioning 12 minutes ago via web

3. Japan sees lower radioactivity level at plant: IAEA http://t.co/oHreyr1 14 minutes ago via web "



"BBCBreaking

1. IAEA told by #Japan that #nuclear plant explosion happened outside primary containment vessel which remains intact, from Reuters 2 minutes ago via TweetDeck "

"SkyNewsBreak

1. "IAEA: radioactivity levels near Fukushima nuclear plant have lessened in recent hours" http://bit.ly/hXjyKM less than a minute ago via SkyNews Alerts - Breaking"

 

[Jeffrey Thomason]

Funny how when the "Rubber Meets The Road" the authorities always circle the wagons and meter out information in little teeny tiny dribs and drabs.

Two things... 1) When situations are as fluid as they are authorities don't always have all the information they are expected to have, and it's better to hold back then to give wrong information. And 2) If they speculate or give false information it's more likely to lead to a panic.

I'd hate to be a TEPCO official right now...

 

[Zulu Cowboy]

I don't trust what I'm hearing from the government on this.
I'm getting the feeling they are more interested in preventing panic, than they are in telling people the truth.

Now I'm seeing on Drudge that a third reactor is having problems. - LINK

Quote: "The emergency cooling system is no longer functioning at the No.3 reactor at Tokyo Electric Power Co's Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power facility, requiring the facility to urgently secure a means to supply water to the reactor, an official of the Japan Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency told a news conference."

Zulu Cowboy

 

[Jeffrey Thomason]

Eh, someone on another board mentioned that California probably gets more rads from the Mojave during the Santa Ana season then they'll get from this.

 

[Catbird]

Details on the newest problem.

From: http://www.reuters.com/article/2011...smid=twtr-reuters_ com&WT.z_smid_dest=Twitter

"Japan's Fukushima nuclear plant faces new reactor problem

TOKYO | Sat Mar 12, 2011 4:17pm EST


(Reuters) - A quake-hit Japanese nuclear plant reeling from an explosion at one of its reactors has also lost its emergency cooling system at another reactor, Japan's nuclear power safety agency said on Sunday.

The emergency cooling system is no longer functioning at the No.3 reactor at Tokyo Electric Power Co's Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power facility, requiring the facility to urgently secure a means to supply water to the reactor, an official of the Japan Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency told a news conference.

On Saturday, an explosion blew off the roof and upper walls of the building housing the facility's No. 1 reactor, stirring alarm over a possible major radiation release, although the government later said the explosion had not affected the reactor's core vessel and that only a small amount of radiation had been released.

The nuclear safety agency official said there was a possibility that at least nine individuals had been exposed to radiation, according to information gathered from municipal governments and other sources."

 

[Red Baron]

Let me translate for you,

All 6 units of Fukushima Daiichi Nuclear Power Station have been shut down.

Unit 1(Shut down)
- Reactor has been shut down. However, the unit is under inspection due
to the explosive sound and white smoke that was confirmed after the big
quake occurred at 3:36PM.
- Also, we have been injecting sea water into the reactor core and then
boric acid which absorbs neutron. However, we tentatively ceased the
operation factoring in the impact of potential tsunami following the
earthquake which occurred at 10:15PM.

We are trying to kill the runaway reactor but conflicting proceedures now have us hiding from a potential tsunami and we let the reactor just cook away because we don't know what to do first, second or third.

Unit 2(Shut down)
- Reactor and Reactor Core Isolation Cooling System have been shut down.
Current reactor water level is lower than normal level, but the water
level is steady. After fully securing safety, we are preparing to
implement a measure to reduce the pressure of the reactor containment
vessels under the instruction of the national government.

The damn thing is overheating and producing hydrogen gas. We are going to release hydrogen and radioactivity into the environment. We just hope the hydrogen doesn't blow up again like on Reactor #1. Sorry, our bad.

source,

http://www.tepco.co.jp/en/press/corp-com/release/11031234-e.html

 

[Catbird]

The numbers are going to go up I'm sure. But what we need to know is what the exposure level is and no one is saying.

"SkyNewsBreak

1. Reuters: Nine people already exposed to radiation from the nuclear power plant in Japan but total could reach up to 160, an official said half a minute ago via SkyNews Alerts - Breaking"