WoT What's Not Said Is More Important Than What Is Said

[FarmerJohn]

Matthew Alexander
Led the interrogations that found Zarqawi; author of "How to Break a Terrorist"

As a senior interrogator in Iraq (and a former criminal investigator), there was a lesson I learned that served me well: there's more to be learned from what someone doesn't say than from what they do say. Let me dissect former Vice President Dick Cheney's speech on National Security using this model and my interrogation skills.

First, VP Cheney said, "This recruitment-tool theory has become something of a mantra lately... it excuses the violent and blames America for the evil that others do." He further stated, "It is much closer to the truth that terrorists hate this country precisely because of the values we profess and seek to live by, not by some alleged failure to do so." That is simply untrue. Anyone who served in Iraq, and veterans on both sides of the aisle have made this argument, knows that the foreign fighters did not come to Iraq en masse until after the revelations of torture and abuse at Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo Bay. I heard this from captured foreign fighters day in and day out when I was supervising interrogations in Iraq. What the former vice president didn't say is the fact that the dislike of our policies in the Middle East were not enough to make thousands of Muslim men pick up arms against us before these revelations. Torture and abuse became Al Qaida's number one recruiting tool and cost us American lives.

Secondly, the former vice president, in saying that waterboarding is not torture, never mentions the fact that it was the United States and its Allies, during the Tokyo Trials, that helped convict a Japanese soldier for war crimes for waterboarding one of Jimmie Doolittle's Raiders. Have our morals and values changed in fifty years? He also did not mention that George Washington and Abraham Lincoln both prohibited their troops from torturing prisoners of war. Washington specifically used the term "injure" -- no mention of severe mental or physical pain.

Thirdly, the former vice president never mentioned the Senate testimony of Ali Soufan, the FBI interrogator who successfully interrogated Abu Zubaydah and learned the identity of Jose Padilla, the dirty bomber, and the fact that Khalid Sheikh Mohammad (KSM) was the mastermind behind 9/11. We'll never know what more we could have discovered from Abu Zubaydah had not CIA contractors taken over the interrogations and used waterboarding and other harsh techniques. Also, glaringly absent from the former vice president's speech was any mention of the fact that the former administration never brought Osama bin Laden to justice and that our best chance to locate him would have been through KSM or Abu Zubaydah had they not been waterboarded.

In addition, in his continued defense of harsh interrogation techniques (aka torture and abuse), VP Cheney forgets that harsh techniques have ensured that future detainees will be less likely to cooperate because they see us as hypocrites. They are less willing to trust us when we fail to live up to our principles. I experienced this firsthand in Iraq when interrogating high-ranking members of Al Qaida, some of whom decided to cooperate simply because I treated them with respect and civility.

The former vice president is confusing harshness with effectiveness. An effective interrogation is one that yields useful, accurate intelligence, not one that is harsh. It speaks to a fundamental misunderstanding of interrogations, the goal of which is not to coerce information from a prisoner, but to convince a prisoner to cooperate.

Finally, the point that is most absent is that our greatest success in this conflict was achieved without torture or abuse. My interrogation team found Abu Musab Al Zarqawi, the former leader of Al Qaida in Iraq and murderer of tens of thousands. We did this using relationship-building approaches and non-coercive law enforcement techniques. These worked to great effect on the most hardened members of Al Qaida -- spiritual leaders who had been behind the waves of suicide bombers and, hence, the sectarian violence that swept across Iraq. We convinced them to cooperate by applying our intellect. In essence, we worked smarter, not harsher.

 

[Grantbo]

In addition, in his continued defense of harsh interrogation techniques (aka torture and abuse), VP Cheney forgets that harsh techniques have ensured that future detainees will be less likely to cooperate because they see us as hypocrites. They are less willing to trust us when we fail to live up to our principles.

Is this guy serious? If so then moron and idiot comes to mind.

 

[ainitfunny]

In addition, in his continued defense of harsh interrogation techniques (aka torture and abuse), VP Cheney forgets that harsh techniques have ensured that future detainees will be less likely to cooperate because they see us as hypocrites. They are less willing to trust us when we fail to live up to our principles.

Is this guy serious? If so then moron and idiot comes to mind.

YES IT DOES, BUT NOT FOR HIM.

 

[saveamerica]

well whaddya know!

the former vice president, in saying that waterboarding is not torture, never mentions the fact that it was the United States and its Allies, during the Tokyo Trials, that helped convict a Japanese soldier for war crimes for waterboarding one of Jimmie Doolittle's Raiders.

people just cant get any more DUMB by saying waterboarding is not torture.

 

[Hfcomms]

Is this guy serious? If so then moron and idiot comes to mind.

So, this guy was a senior interorgator and involved in questioning of high level detainees but he's a moron and idiot but you know better?

What the former vice president didn't say is the fact that the dislike of our policies in the Middle East were not enough to make thousands of Muslim men pick up arms against us before these revelations. Torture and abuse became Al Qaida's number one recruiting tool and cost us American lives.

Our torture is what was the rallying cry to bring the foreign fighters in en masse and this cost us lives when we turned our back on our values.

I experienced this firsthand in Iraq when interrogating high-ranking members of Al Qaida, some of whom decided to cooperate simply because I treated them with respect and civility.

If our American values are superior to the enemies then lets show those values and counter the propaganda. Many Japanese and German prisoners expected to be tortured because of propaganda and were very surprised as to how they were treated. And not incidentally Japan and Germany became fast friends and allies after WWII because we demonstrated superior values. I posted an article a few different times about a Col in the OSS that interorgated Nazi generals and this Col gleaned a lot of information over games of chess when the Nazi let his guard down. A good interorgator can learn valuable information when the target doesn't even realize he's given it. In fact this man was ashamed that we've treated prisoners the way we have.

Excellent article and thanks for posting it.

 

[Moto]

The thing about waterboarding is that it is extremely unpleasant, but once it is stopped there are absolutely zero lingering effects (the anguish over being put through the experience at all nonwithstanding).

Real torture, to many people, is: ripping someones figernails out, burning flesh, whipping, piercing the flesh, caning, cutting off digits, cutting off limbs, peeling skin, etc. Ask someone who has endured any of these things, and they will beg you to be waterboarded. It's just not even in the same league.

 

[ainitfunny]

The thing about waterboarding is that it is extremely unpleasant, but once it is stopped there are absolutely zero lingering effects (the anguish over being put through the experience at all nonwithstanding).

Real torture, to many people, is: ripping someones figernails out, burning flesh, whipping, piercing the flesh, caning, cutting off digits, cutting off limbs, peeling skin, etc. Ask someone who has endured any of these things, and they will beg you to be waterboarded. It's just not even in the same league.

So if they raped, starved or tortured your mother or daughter in front of you THAT WOULD NOT BE TORTURING YOU BECAUSE YOU DIDN'T HAVE A MARK ON YOU???

 

[Thomas Paine]

I have the answer to this issue.We just kill the frakkers till they learn not to play with the buzz saw when it's cutting wood. I mean all we want is for them to leave us and our friends alone. So we start a strategic bombing plan like was used against the germans. We reduce their cities to dust, their economic machine sto ruin, and kill as many of their people as we possibly can until they scream uncle or we run out of people. it works for me because I understand if we don't destroy them they will destroy us.

Oh well the warm fuzzy Kum By Ya crowd won't like this either I guess.

 

[FarmerJohn]

I have the answer to this issue.We just kill the frakkers till they learn not to play with the buzz saw when it's cutting wood. I mean all we want is for them to leave us and our friends alone. So we start a strategic bombing plan like was used against the germans. We reduce their cities to dust, their economic machine sto ruin, and kill as many of their people as we possibly can until they scream uncle or we run out of people. it works for me because I understand if we don't destroy them they will destroy us.

Oh well the warm fuzzy Kum By Ya crowd won't like this either I guess.

You're making a sick joke, right? You named yourself after Thomas Paine, author of "Age of Reason" right? Not even athiest Thomas Paine would have the conscience to destroy entire populations to kill a few AQ. These days all it takes is a few depraved fanatics with money to wreak havoc. It's possible to cultivate vast numbers of enemies like that with the tactics you advocate.

FJ

 

[Thomas Paine]

You're making a sick joke, right? You named yourself after Thomas Paine, author of "Age of Reason" right? Not even athiest Thomas Paine would have the conscience to destroy entire populations to kill a few AQ. These days all it takes is a few depraved fanatics with money to wreak havoc. It's possible to cultivate vast numbers of enemies like that with the tactics you advocate.

FJ

I advocate the same hard edge total war thinking we used in WW II to beat the germans and japs. You destroy everything they have or want then you destroy the will of the people by constant attack. I want these camel frakkers to be so fearful of what we will do to them that when Achmed or starts grumbling about infidel devils and the great satan they stone the little idiot to death out of fear a JADAM or MOAB is gonna go BOOM over their little towel wrapped heads. You destroy enemies you do not join hands and sing how you'd like to buy the world a coke.


As for wiping them out that ain't nessecary just bomb them till they will leave us along.

 

[Hfcomms]

MOAB is gonna go BOOM over their little towel wrapped heads. You destroy enemies you do not join hands and sing how you'd like to buy the world a coke.

May you receive more mercy than what you are willing to show. What comes around has a nasty way of going around.

 

[Volleyball Granny]

One more time...Muslims will not stop killing others until the whole world is Muslim. Talking will not do anything other than buy a little time--which they will use to plan increasingly heinous methods of exterminating non-Muslims.

 

[Thomas Paine]

May you receive more mercy than what you are willing to show. What comes around has a nasty way of going around.

The difference between you and me is I realize they will show me even less mercy than I am showing. I am willing to live and let live but they ain't . You live in some sort of weird world where because you show honor the enemy will show the same honor to you. I realize the enemy is pure evil. I suffer no illusions of how they will treat us when they create the western branch of the mid east.And they will create it because most americans lack the balls to fight to win, they want to limit collateral damage, and not be culturally offensive. As I used to say WE AIN'T KILLING ENOUGH OF THEM, AS OFTEN AS WE CAN , WHENEVER WE CAN LIKE WE SHOULD.

 

[Wardogs]

I've read one of Matthew Alexander's books, "I’m Still Tortured by What I Saw in Iraq” and I have several problems with recent articles in the media and about Matthew Alexander’s book, especially the inflammatory quote by a writer who doesn’t even have the courage to use his real name, allegedly because he fears for the safety of his family. I truly question who Matthew Alexander really is and if he was even in the military, or was an FBI interrogator and if he actually interrogated anyone. This should be investigated. Maybe he is a complete military phony, maybe not.

To state as he did in his book, that “The number of U.S. soldiers who have died because of our torture policy will never be definitively known, but it is fair to say that it is close to the number of lives lost on Sept. 11, 2001″ is absurd. Where is the evidence to support such a ridiculous, inflammatory statement? There is none, and it’s not “fair to say,” or imply, there is.

I will go even further and say that OUR interrogations saved thousands and maybe even tens of thousands of American lives. Of course I have no more evidence to support my opinion than M.A. has to support his.

This guy is just trying to sell books, hoping that many people will accept everything he says as fact.

Additionally, it was Jordanian intelligence forces that arrested and questioned the Iraqi customs agent, Ziad Khalaf Raja al-Karbouli, who is credited with giving up the whereabouts of Zarqawi’s safe houses, not Alexander or his "team", leading to the final demise of one of Iraq’s most feared terrorists.

You can bet your last dollar the Jordanians didn’t sweet talk this guy into giving up the location of Zarqawi. And he didn’t get the $25M reward, either.

I agree with one thing however, "What's Not Said Is More Important Than What Is Said", and he is not saying some important things. He forgets that the convictions in the Tokyo trials were for a whole laundry list of offenses of which waterboarding was only a minor part. He also doesn't say that the "water cure" as practiced by the Japanese was nothing like the controlled methods used on the three terrorists that we interrogated. Their method was to force water into the victim until their bellies were extended and then to beat them with clubs, kick, punch and jump on their stomachs until it was expelled and to sometimes use salt water that actually killed them.

He offers nothing but anecdotal "proof" that our imprisonment and treatment of detainees "caused thousands of Muslim men to take up arms" but doesn't mention that the vast majority of foreign fighters came to Iraq after the call by OBL to make Iraq the focus of Jihad against the West, long before the Abu Ghraib incident. Nor does he mention that the atrocities committed by those fighters, especially by AQ, was the main reason we were able to accomplish the Anbar Awakening.

He mentions Ali Soufan and how he "successfully" interrogated Abu Zubaydah, but doesn't mention that Padilla was a fairly low level player, he gave no information other than his name and that it was US investigators that tracked and arrested him, (he was arrested in Chicago), and that it was already known that KSM was involved in the planning of 9/11. He may be upset that "others took over" (what others, weren't they all on the same team?), but that suggests to me that his methods, as Cheney said, were not working or were not timely enough and that it wasn't until after Zubaydah was waterboarded that he gave up the alias (Muhktar) and location of KSM and other information. (Soufan disputes that, saying he got KSM's "nickname" first but it wasn't immediately connected to KSM).

If Matthew Alexander is actually who he says he is, he is an FBI interrogator, not from the CIA. FBI interrogators were given military credentials but as Soufan points out, they were not legitimate and would cause major problems for their bearers if caught. I suspect this because he has the same timelines, beefs and prejudices as Soufan and displays the same inter-agency rivalry.

Bottom line, I believe that waterboarding, as implemented by our interrogators, does not rise to the standard of torture and was carefully controlled so that it wouldn't. That is the reason that so much attention was given to the legal side of the matter and such care was undertaken in the administration of not just that, but all "enhanced techniques". Many disagree, including some of the interrogators themselves. There is no doubt that "traditional methods" are effective in many cases. It's also apparent that in some cases they are not. Soufan himself states that it took him almost three months, (March to June) to uncover from Zubaydah just those two items of intel that he did get. I do however take with a grain of salt information from those with a political agenda or who are selling books or have other financial interests that affect their opinions.

wardogs

 

[BigBadBossyDog]

May you receive more mercy than what you are willing to show. What comes around has a nasty way of going around.

What is it about the word "WAR" that you don't get?

You fight to win, not hold hands and apologize.

Good Lord!!!

The day they skidded airplanes across desktops in the WTC, they declared war on us. We should nuke the entire bunch and be done with it.

 

[FarmerJohn]

I advocate the same hard edge total war thinking we used in WW II to beat the germans and japs. You destroy everything they have or want then you destroy the will of the people by constant attack. I want these camel frakkers to be so fearful of what we will do to them that when Achmed or starts grumbling about infidel devils and the great satan they stone the little idiot to death out of fear a JADAM or MOAB is gonna go BOOM over their little towel wrapped heads. You destroy enemies you do not join hands and sing how you'd like to buy the world a coke.

As for wiping them out that ain't nessecary just bomb them till they will leave us along.

And if they feel the same way as you do....

BTY, Where would propose dropping the first three bombs (or other types of ordnance of your choosing)? You see this helping matters?

FJ

 

[Hfcomms]

What is it about the word "WAR" that you don't get?

Lady, I'm a decorated Army officer and there are rules and laws of warfare and you don't simply throw them out the window because otherwise you become as bad as what your fighting against.

The day they skidded airplanes across desktops in the WTC, they declared war on us. We should nuke the entire bunch and be done with it.

Define 'they' for me. Do you even have the beginnings of a clue of what your are proposing? Should we incinerate millions of innocent women and children in muslim nations because they have the bad fortune of being born in an Islamic system? Do you become both judge and jury here?

As I used to say WE AIN'T KILLING ENOUGH OF THEM, AS OFTEN AS WE CAN , WHENEVER WE CAN LIKE WE SHOULD.

Then you sir, are immoral and if you ever took an oath to defend the constitution then you just wiped your rear end with it and are just as guilty as the socialists and communists currently in power where in their mindset the end justifies the means.

Learn what certain inalienable rights means.

 

[Ender]

Hfcomms-

You, Sir, are an Officer and a Gentlemen.

You give me hope that America may still be alive under all the military/industrial/corporation/money grubbing/nation destroying complex that has had their way with her for 60 years.

 

[BigBadBossyDog]

Yeah, I have a clue. I got my first clue in World War II.

 

[Thomas Paine]

And if they feel the same way as you do....

BTY, Where would propose dropping the first three bombs (or other types of ordnance of your choosing)? You see this helping matters?

FJ

Well I'm not above saying we do it systematically grid square by grid square adjusting the strikes to the travel direction of the enemy. Or maybe we should have hit Mecca, Medina, and say 10-15 other high profile targets. MOABs, and high energy conventional stuff would have been enough but if there were any secretly held neutron devices put back for a rainy day I wouldn't be above finding a target for them.

It's not about killing them because of their beliefs they can hold any belief they wish, it's about killing them because they attacked us, and are still attempting to kill us and will continue to do this for the foreseeable future because they see what we consider to be signs of our civilized behavior(things like mercy, kindness, concern for the less fortunate, decent treatment of people trying to kill us) as signs of our weakness. The only thing they respect is pure , unadulterated force, the more of them dead , or on the run is just that many of them that are too busy to attempt to kill americans.

Today this nation wouldn't have the national will to win WWII because the american people have turned soft hearted and soft in the head and back bone.My priorities run america first, our allies second, and anyone else last, dead last preferably. I have no desire for my niece, or my sister, or my mother to wear a body condom, or for my nation to live under islamic law. I realize this sort of brash love of country and family puts many of the cowardly
I hate america, america we are so bad types off, or even the blind we love america and we can kill the enemy with kindness misguided souls who think harsh words and a time out can stop animals who think nothing of cutting peoples heads off to make a point. It's basic survival boys and girls us or them and I damn sure prefer us to them even if we get our high minded ideals get frayed around the edges.

I am not ashamed for feeling this way and will not apologize for it. I love my country and wish for it to continue. I give no quarter and expect none when fuzzy unclear thinking like that exhibited by those who are mortified by my words and beliefs allow the enemy to come here and began the wholesale slaughter of americans. And it will be because short sighted people refuse to allow us to destroy our enemies. This nation hasn't won a war since WWII, not because of a military short sightedness but because the people began to believe we are so good of a people we cannot do what is needed to crush our enemies. It disgusts me, that we have people in this nation that would allow us to be defeated because the thought of killing the enemy, stripping them of the ability to hurt us, is beneath them.

 

[Thomas Paine]

Then you sir, are immoral and if you ever took an oath to defend the constitution then you just wiped your rear end with it and are just as guilty as the socialists and communists currently in power where in their mindset the end justifies the means.

Learn what certain inalienable rights means.

So the bombing crews that hit Dresden, Berlin, Hamburg, Tokyo, various Japanese cities wiped their ass on the constitution? or the guys who fired up anything that moved in free fire zones in Nam?or how about the men who dropped Fatman and Little Boy? Same philosophy,total war, the people are a resource of war. Or how about some of those damn yankees they laid waste to the south looting, burning and destroying anything nailed down or near them? This nation has fallen into the false notion a war can be fought with surgical precision, that the body politic that is at best apathetic and at worst wholly supportive of the enemy shouldn't be touched because it might look bad. The only thing that should be important is the survival of america, and the greater western culture over them.

Once again I will say it as long as they left us and our allies they could have lived the life of Riley but they choose to spill american blood, that calls for the total destruction of their countries, lives, and culture. You cannot when a war when you play by rules and the enemy doesn't.

 

[Ender]

Once again I will say it as long as they left us and our allies they could have lived the life of Riley but they choose to spill american blood, that calls for the total destruction of their countries, lives, and culture. You cannot when a war when you play by rules and the enemy doesn't.

I'm sorry to say that America has not played by the "rules" since WWII.

 

[Oilpatch Hand]

Where is the link for this article? Has it been omitted, perhaps, because it leads back to The Huffington Post?

Wardogs handled this Matthew Alexander fellow quite well, and there's really no need re-plow that ground. However, the author of this article, to the extent he may even exist at all, betrays his either his utter gullibility or his political agenda with this passage:

He further stated, "It is much closer to the truth that terrorists hate this country precisely because of the values we profess and seek to live by, not by some alleged failure to do so." That is simply untrue. Anyone who served in Iraq, and veterans on both sides of the aisle have made this argument, knows that the foreign fighters did not come to Iraq en masse until after the revelations of torture and abuse at Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo Bay. I heard this from captured foreign fighters day in and day out when I was supervising interrogations in Iraq.

This fellow apparently missed the thousands of terrorists who had been fighting with the Taliban in Afghanistan in 2002 who flooded into Iraq in the early days of the U. S. invasion. And while "Mr. Matthews" was blissfully unaware of this influx of foreign fighters, apparently none of the detainees he talked to mentioned these terrorist movements in 2003.

It might have helped his understanding had the detainees clued him in. You see, "Mr. Matthews" appears to be quite willing to buy anything a detainee might say to him under the Muslim doctrine of taqiyya, under which a Muslim may lie or dissemble to an infidel if such an act serves to advance the cause of Islam. It is a frequently employed technique, and one of its most common manifestations is the canard often repeated by terrorist detainees that "they only became foreign terror fighters because the U. S. supposedly failed to live up to its ideals" in whatever place the detainee can remember at that moment. (Never mind that none of these terrorists could name an "American ideal" if their life depended on it; they are trained to offer this silly line because media outlets such as HuffPo and their readers, frankly, are dumb enough to believe it.)

You'd think that "Mr. Matthews," if he were really in fact the experienced, effective interrogator he claims to be, would immediately recognize a statement offered under the doctrine of taqiyya when he heard one. Just about everybody else conducting interrogations in Iraq does. Yet, "Mr. Matthews" apparently failed to recognize a terrorist detainee's claim that "Gitmo/Abu Ghraib made me do it" as the lie proffered under taqiyya that such a statement in fact must be. And, even more disturbingly, this "Mr. Matthews" chooses to believe such a statement, when no other knowledgeable person in a similar position would, or even could.

One might think the Huffington Post could have found someone to pretend to be a military interrogator who wasn't quite as gullible as this "Mr. Matthews" appears to be. Perhaps it's just that all the interrogators who weren't fooled by a transparent dissemblance under the taqiyya doctrine were unavailable at press time.

 

[BigBadBossyDog]

One might think the Huffington Post could have found someone to pretend to be a military interrogator who wasn't quite as gullible as this "Mr. Matthews" appears to be. Perhaps it's just that all the interrogators who weren't fooled by a transparent dissemblance under the taqiyya doctrine were unavailable at press time.

HuffPo is another Onion, in my eyes. All Huff, no go, just blow. Without the Onion humor.

One would think after all these years of living in America, the twit could at least learn to speak proper English.

 

[FarmerJohn]

Well I'm not above saying we do it systematically grid square by grid square adjusting the strikes to the travel direction of the enemy. Or maybe we should have hit Mecca, Medina, and say 10-15 other high profile targets. MOABs, and high energy conventional stuff would have been enough but if there were any secretly held neutron devices put back for a rainy day I wouldn't be above finding a target for them.

It's not about killing them because of their beliefs they can hold any belief they wish, it's about killing them because they attacked us, and are still attempting to kill us and will continue to do this for the foreseeable future because they see what we consider to be signs of our civilized behavior(things like mercy, kindness, concern for the less fortunate, decent treatment of people trying to kill us) as signs of our weakness. The only thing they respect is pure , unadulterated force, the more of them dead , or on the run is just that many of them that are too busy to attempt to kill americans.

Say we hit the muslim's top three holy cities: Mecca, Medina and Jerusalem...oops. That might make us unpopular with some folks who are don't hate us yet.

What if we'd bombed Lockport, NY after Timothy McVeigh bombed the Murrah Building in Oklahoma City, surely that would have taught McVeigh and those of his ilk a lesson! I assure that McVeigh does have 'ilk' and they would be far more likely to follow in his footsteps if we started acting that irrationally.

The same goes for the muslims. at present there are a tiny percentage that would like to follow up on what OBL and KSM did. We can drastically raise that number by becoming the nation that you suggest we become.

There are two nuclear-armed countries with over 100,000,000 muslims each. Currently they're more concerned about each other than they are with us. We could change that.

FJ

 

[mom2many]

And THAT is exactly the lesson muslim terrorist need to learn.

May you receive more mercy than what you are willing to show. What comes around has a nasty way of going around.

 

[Rescuedog]

Seems like too much running around with you hair on fire for 3 people who were waterboarded! Three people who would never waterboard our soldiers-they'd just behead them, and video tape it so the soldiers' families could watch.

Where is the outrage over Daniel Pearl, or our contractors in Fallujah? These fanatics have been trying to kill us before this waterboarding ever occured, and they will continue to do so regardless of our operations.

We owe it to our soliers and citizens to use all the tools at our disposal to keep them safe.

RD

 

[FarmerJohn]

Waterboarding is the tip of the iceberg. If you look as the list of those who've died during interrogation or shortly thereafter you'' find a lot of "blunt-force trauma".

There is plenty of rage over what happened to Daniel Perle; the Blackwater guys were just plain unlucky to be the first Americans back in Fallujah after the massacre without any warning that they'd be going into a community still seething with rage over the deaths of 17 unarmed Iraqis at the hands of Americans.

The kind of tool that would be most effective at keeping Americans safe would be to go back to the type of prisoner treatment that we used in WWII that was so effective for our intelligence purposes then.

FJ

 

[workerbee]

Many here like to believe the majority of muslims are "moderate".


moderate muslim = muslim out of ammo.


If waterboarding keeps one American soul from dying, I'm all for it.

What if Beslam comes to an American gradeschool?
What if waterboarding prevents it?


Haven't some of our special ops units been routinely waterboarded?

Hell, in basic training we endure exposure to tear gas.
For the brief time of exposure, you are in agony....
but once it's over, just like waterboarding, it's over.

I guess I wouldn't necessarily have a problem switching from waterboarding to tear gas if those opposed to waterboarding felt it more humane.

But the reality, imho, is this subject is trivial.

I say it's trivial because the carrot-on-a-stick approach is just not effective with this type of enemy.

As Patton said; "You don't win a war by dying for your country. You get the other poor dumb bastard to die for his."

'nuff said.

 

[Thomas Paine]

I'm sorry to say that America has not played by the "rules" since WWII.

Actually we have been more worried about world opinion than winning since WWII. When this nation makes war the full weight of our power needs to be brought to destroy the enemy, economically, militarily, socially, and any other way that presents it's self then we need to occupy the country strip it of all resources and then pack up and go home leaving the few survivors to make do. people like you would issue the US Military NERF guns and plastic swords with instructions not to play rough. The military has only one purpose, it's not meals on wheels, it's not relief work, it's not helping little old ladies across the street. It is to kill, fold, spindle, and mutilate the enemy, his industrial base, his social structure, and his resources including the population. If we were to revert to this sort of thinking we wouldn't have to deal with low life, sub human terrs and their supporters. Of course we would have to step up production of adult depends because the libtards would be pissing all over themselves.

 

[Hfcomms]

Hmmm...I guess we just throw away the constitution to save it. Just like in nam we burned down the villages to save them. It comes down to core values and apparently for the most part we have none left.

Because what is accepted and done to an external enemy of the State today can be done without nary a whimper to a domestic enemy of the State tomorrow. We should of learned from history on these things. You may feel that waterboarding and it's adjuncts isn't torture or terrorism and I respect you opinion although I disagree with it. Hopefully you won't have to undergo such an interorgation or even worse in your future. I mean you post on TB2K which the government has determined is a subversive website so when they supoena the server records to narrow down who is posting and encouraging violence and breaking of the law....and then they determine (through an informant who hates your guts for example) that you have been plotting violence against members of the government so they pick you or one of your kids for some enhanced interorgation to get you to talk. Never happen you think? How many things are taking place today that 30 or 40 years ago we would of said could never happen in America?

 

[Thomas Paine]

Many here like to believe the majority of muslims are "moderate".


moderate muslim = muslim out of ammo.


If waterboarding keeps one American soul from dying, I'm all for it.

What if Beslam comes to an American gradeschool?
What if waterboarding prevents it?


Haven't some of our special ops units been routinely waterboarded?

Hell, in basic training we endure exposure to tear gas.
For the brief time of exposure, you are in agony....
but once it's over, just like waterboarding, it's over.

I guess I wouldn't necessarily have a problem switching from waterboarding to tear gas if those opposed to waterboarding felt it more humane.

But the reality, imho, is this subject is trivial.

I say it's trivial because the carrot-on-a-stick approach is just not effective with this type of enemy.

As Patton said; "You don't win a war by dying for your country. You get the other poor dumb bastard to die for his."

'nuff said.

These people would rather see america fall than use much more than harsh language to defend it. Somehow they think sticking to so called high ideals, even if the very society that the ideals belong to is destroyed is preferable to killing the enemy, destroying his resources. We should be salting their lands, poisoning the wells and driving the survivors in front of us in panic and fear. Then we shouldn't provide relief after we kick their arses.

I remember the pictures the people jumping out of the towers, the steady attacks by these people and the stupid sonuvabitches who wanted to treat it as a law enforcement problem instead of killing the bastards. To me they are worthless dead weight to society who are too chicken shite to even think of getting bloody defending this nation.It's kinda like the indian fighters used to say the only good one is a dead one, terrorists and supporters that is.

 

[workerbee]

Yep.

 

[Thomas Paine]

Many here like to believe the majority of muslims are "moderate".


moderate muslim = muslim out of ammo.


If waterboarding keeps one American soul from dying, I'm all for it.

What if Beslam comes to an American gradeschool?
What if waterboarding prevents it?


Haven't some of our special ops units been routinely waterboarded?

Hell, in basic training we endure exposure to tear gas.
For the brief time of exposure, you are in agony....
but once it's over, just like waterboarding, it's over.

I guess I wouldn't necessarily have a problem switching from waterboarding to tear gas if those opposed to waterboarding felt it more humane.

But the reality, imho, is this subject is trivial.

I say it's trivial because the carrot-on-a-stick approach is just not effective with this type of enemy.

As Patton said; "You don't win a war by dying for your country. You get the other poor dumb bastard to die for his."

'nuff said.

These people would rather see america fall than use much more than harsh language to defend it. Somehow they think sticking to so called high ideals, even if the very society that the ideals belong to is destroyed is preferable to killing the enemy, destroying his resources. We should be salting their lands, poisoning the wells and driving the survivors in front of us in panic and fear. Then we shouldn't provide relief after we kick their arses.

I remember the pictures the people jumping out of the towers, the steady attacks by these people and the stupid sonuvabitches who wanted to treat it as a law enforcement problem instead of killing the bastards. To me they are worthless dead weight to society who are too chicken shite to even think of getting bloody defending this nation.It's kinda like the indian fighters used to say the only good one is a dead one, terrorists and supporters that is.