WAR Vladimir Putin as Robert E. Lee

MinnesotaSmith

Membership Revoked

Vladimir Putin as Robert E. Lee
PAUL CRAIG ROBERTS • MAY 20, 2022

"As readers know, I often make reference to Putin’s forbearance, that is, to his tolerance, patience, and self-control. I admire Putin’s forbearance which persists despite Putin never receiving any recognition or credit for it. My concern is that Putin’s forbearance does not serve him or Russia well. The reason is that the Western world no longer recognizes or values the moral code that once defined Western civilization. Today in the Western world there are only two values–money and power.

It has been a long time since any American or European military leader said anything resembling what Robert E. Lee told the soldiers who comprised the Army of Northern Virginia:


“We make war only upon armed men, and we cannot take vengeance for the wrongs our people have suffered without lowering ourselves in the eyes of all those whose abhorrence has been excited by the atrocities of our enemies, and offending against God to whom vengeance belongs.”

Many of the Union soldiers, especially those under command of the generals, Sherman and Sheridan, who hated Southerners, subjected civilian populations in the South to rape and looting. They would burn down the homes and slaughter the livestock, leaving the women and children unprotected from winter and starvation. The entire purpose of President Lincoln’s Emancipation Proclamation was to create a slave rebellion in the Confederacy that would cause the Confederate troops to leave the war to return home to protect their women and children. As Lincoln’s own Secretary of State said, the President has “freed” the slaves only in those areas where we have no presence and left them in slavery where we are in command. As no slaves rebelled, Lincoln’s effort to inflict rape and murder on Southern women and children failed.

In those past years when the US still had historians, instead of today’s 1619 Project propagandists, Lee’s forbearance was the basis of his high reputation among US military officers. During Eisenhower’s presidency, Lee’s portrait hung on the walls of the Oval Office. The collapse of American morals has been so total that today Robert E. Lee’s statue has been removed from Richmond, Virginia, the city he protected from rapine and destruction.

World War II as conducted by Roosevelt and Churchill was a war against civilians. The British air force was constructed and used for bombing German residential areas. Once Washington entered the war, the US air force followed the same practice. The British/US bombing of Dresden is one of the worst war crimes in history, as were the atomic bombs dropped on the civilian populations of two Japanese cities while the Japanese were trying to surrender. [I'm not convinced re trying to surrender. -MS] In the early months of WW II, Hitler prohibited the German air force from bombing civilian areas in Britain. It was the relentless bombing of German civilians that forced Hitler to reverse his policy.

When one considers the massive war crimes the US committed against German and Japanese civilians, it is amazing that these people are so firmly committed to Washington’s will.

Recall Vietnam, the napalm and Agent Orange dropped on villagers, the picture of the naked little girl fleeing the flames, the relentless bombing of civilians in Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, weddings, funerals, children’s soccer games, the shelling by Ukrainian Neo-Nazis, with support from the American liberal press, of civilians in Donbass. The West conducts war by terror.
Putin told the Russian soldiers before sending them into Donbass that Russia does not fight this way. He prohibited them from using heavy weapons in civilian areas. It was the cowardly Ukrainian military and the Neo-Nazi Azov thugs who took refuge among civilians where they could fire heavy weapons and not be targeted by Russian heavy weapons.

Like Lee, for Putin forbearance is a virtue, a moral principle that you don’t sacrifice for war. Like Lee, Putin told the troops that “we make war only upon armed men.”
Putin has stuck to this policy despite the narrative’s portrayal of him as a war criminal murdering women and children. In other words, Putin is not restraining the use of violence against civilians because he expects credit for his forbearance, but because it is a virtue to which he holds.

When one looks honestly, one sees clearly that the virtue the West claims does not exist.
My problem with Putin’s forbearance is that it is not only no longer an admired virtue in the West but also so foreign to the modern Western mind that it is interpreted as indecision and weakness. Consequently, the provocations of Russia multiply and worsen. In brief, Putin’s forbearance is resulting in red lines being crossed that will end in nuclear war.

Putin’s problem is unique in the modern world. His virtue of forbearance is what is driving the world to nuclear war. His virtue is seen as weakness against which more threatening pushes can be made. The question is real whether Putin’s forbearance will bring on Armageddon.
This is the reason, not bloody-mindedness, that I have said that the Kremlin’s use of military force in Ukraine needed to be awesome and quickly concluded in total success in order to establish in Washington and the capitals of Europe that the policy of poking the bear is a fools game that brings certain death and destruction.

If Russia had delivered blitzkrieg to Ukraine, the governments of Europe would be disengaging from NATO, not trying to join it. Washington would gain recognition that the neoconservatives’ policy of American hegemony was extremely costly. It would be possible for voices to speak in favor of a more restrained policy.

Instead, what we have is a narrative of Russian loss and defeat, and not a single country the least bit scared of offending Russia. Weapons, money, diplomatic support for the Ukrainian Nazis is flowing in from the Western World. Yesterday the national newspaper in the capital of the Western World, the Washington Post, editorialized: “The world must not forget Mariupol’s defenders. They are heroes.”
The “heroes” are the Neo-Nazi Azov thugs, a collection of war criminals, many of whom are likely to be tried in Russian courts for war crimes. This editorial should tell us all we should know about the depraved West. Does it tell Putin anything?"
 

Tex88

Veteran Member

Vladimir Putin as Robert E. Lee
PAUL CRAIG ROBERTS • MAY 20, 2022

"As readers know, I often make reference to Putin’s forbearance, that is, to his tolerance, patience, and self-control. I admire Putin’s forbearance which persists despite Putin never receiving any recognition or credit for it. My concern is that Putin’s forbearance does not serve him or Russia well. The reason is that the Western world no longer recognizes or values the moral code that once defined Western civilization. Today in the Western world there are only two values–money and power.

It has been a long time since any American or European military leader said anything resembling what Robert E. Lee told the soldiers who comprised the Army of Northern Virginia:

“We make war only upon armed men, and we cannot take vengeance for the wrongs our people have suffered without lowering ourselves in the eyes of all those whose abhorrence has been excited by the atrocities of our enemies, and offending against God to whom vengeance belongs.”

Many of the Union soldiers, especially those under command of the generals, Sherman and Sheridan, who hated Southerners, subjected civilian populations in the South to rape and looting. They would burn down the homes and slaughter the livestock, leaving the women and children unprotected from winter and starvation. The entire purpose of President Lincoln’s Emancipation Proclamation was to create a slave rebellion in the Confederacy that would cause the Confederate troops to leave the war to return home to protect their women and children. As Lincoln’s own Secretary of State said, the President has “freed” the slaves only in those areas where we have no presence and left them in slavery where we are in command. As no slaves rebelled, Lincoln’s effort to inflict rape and murder on Southern women and children failed.

In those past years when the US still had historians, instead of today’s 1619 Project propagandists, Lee’s forbearance was the basis of his high reputation among US military officers. During Eisenhower’s presidency, Lee’s portrait hung on the walls of the Oval Office. The collapse of American morals has been so total that today Robert E. Lee’s statue has been removed from Richmond, Virginia, the city he protected from rapine and destruction.

World War II as conducted by Roosevelt and Churchill was a war against civilians. The British air force was constructed and used for bombing German residential areas. Once Washington entered the war, the US air force followed the same practice. The British/US bombing of Dresden is one of the worst war crimes in history, as were the atomic bombs dropped on the civilian populations of two Japanese cities while the Japanese were trying to surrender. [I'm not convinced re trying to surrender. -MS] In the early months of WW II, Hitler prohibited the German air force from bombing civilian areas in Britain. It was the relentless bombing of German civilians that forced Hitler to reverse his policy.

When one considers the massive war crimes the US committed against German and Japanese civilians, it is amazing that these people are so firmly committed to Washington’s will.

Recall Vietnam, the napalm and Agent Orange dropped on villagers, the picture of the naked little girl fleeing the flames, the relentless bombing of civilians in Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, weddings, funerals, children’s soccer games, the shelling by Ukrainian Neo-Nazis, with support from the American liberal press, of civilians in Donbass. The West conducts war by terror.
Putin told the Russian soldiers before sending them into Donbass that Russia does not fight this way. He prohibited them from using heavy weapons in civilian areas. It was the cowardly Ukrainian military and the Neo-Nazi Azov thugs who took refuge among civilians where they could fire heavy weapons and not be targeted by Russian heavy weapons.

Like Lee, for Putin forbearance is a virtue, a moral principle that you don’t sacrifice for war. Like Lee, Putin told the troops that “we make war only upon armed men.”
Putin has stuck to this policy despite the narrative’s portrayal of him as a war criminal murdering women and children. In other words, Putin is not restraining the use of violence against civilians because he expects credit for his forbearance, but because it is a virtue to which he holds.

When one looks honestly, one sees clearly that the virtue the West claims does not exist.
My problem with Putin’s forbearance is that it is not only no longer an admired virtue in the West but also so foreign to the modern Western mind that it is interpreted as indecision and weakness. Consequently, the provocations of Russia multiply and worsen. In brief, Putin’s forbearance is resulting in red lines being crossed that will end in nuclear war.

Putin’s problem is unique in the modern world. His virtue of forbearance is what is driving the world to nuclear war. His virtue is seen as weakness against which more threatening pushes can be made. The question is real whether Putin’s forbearance will bring on Armageddon.
This is the reason, not bloody-mindedness, that I have said that the Kremlin’s use of military force in Ukraine needed to be awesome and quickly concluded in total success in order to establish in Washington and the capitals of Europe that the policy of poking the bear is a fools game that brings certain death and destruction.

If Russia had delivered blitzkrieg to Ukraine, the governments of Europe would be disengaging from NATO, not trying to join it. Washington would gain recognition that the neoconservatives’ policy of American hegemony was extremely costly. It would be possible for voices to speak in favor of a more restrained policy.

Instead, what we have is a narrative of Russian loss and defeat, and not a single country the least bit scared of offending Russia. Weapons, money, diplomatic support for the Ukrainian Nazis is flowing in from the Western World. Yesterday the national newspaper in the capital of the Western World, the Washington Post, editorialized: “The world must not forget Mariupol’s defenders. They are heroes.”
The “heroes” are the Neo-Nazi Azov thugs, a collection of war criminals, many of whom are likely to be tried in Russian courts for war crimes. This editorial should tell us all we should know about the depraved West. Does it tell Putin anything?"

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpuRcmPnSTM
 

Infoscout

The Dude Abides
I think you would have more a case for comparing Putin with Sherman, but to be fair, two vastly different cultures, two vastly different timeframes. Putin had a choice to invade or not, he chose to invade, Lee never had a choice but to defend Virginia.
 

AlfaMan

Has No Life - Lives on TB

Vladimir Putin as Robert E. Lee
PAUL CRAIG ROBERTS • MAY 20, 2022

"As readers know, I often make reference to Putin’s forbearance, that is, to his tolerance, patience, and self-control. I admire Putin’s forbearance which persists despite Putin never receiving any recognition or credit for it. My concern is that Putin’s forbearance does not serve him or Russia well. The reason is that the Western world no longer recognizes or values the moral code that once defined Western civilization. Today in the Western world there are only two values–money and power.

It has been a long time since any American or European military leader said anything resembling what Robert E. Lee told the soldiers who comprised the Army of Northern Virginia:

“We make war only upon armed men, and we cannot take vengeance for the wrongs our people have suffered without lowering ourselves in the eyes of all those whose abhorrence has been excited by the atrocities of our enemies, and offending against God to whom vengeance belongs.”

Many of the Union soldiers, especially those under command of the generals, Sherman and Sheridan, who hated Southerners, subjected civilian populations in the South to rape and looting. They would burn down the homes and slaughter the livestock, leaving the women and children unprotected from winter and starvation. The entire purpose of President Lincoln’s Emancipation Proclamation was to create a slave rebellion in the Confederacy that would cause the Confederate troops to leave the war to return home to protect their women and children. As Lincoln’s own Secretary of State said, the President has “freed” the slaves only in those areas where we have no presence and left them in slavery where we are in command. As no slaves rebelled, Lincoln’s effort to inflict rape and murder on Southern women and children failed.

In those past years when the US still had historians, instead of today’s 1619 Project propagandists, Lee’s forbearance was the basis of his high reputation among US military officers. During Eisenhower’s presidency, Lee’s portrait hung on the walls of the Oval Office. The collapse of American morals has been so total that today Robert E. Lee’s statue has been removed from Richmond, Virginia, the city he protected from rapine and destruction.

World War II as conducted by Roosevelt and Churchill was a war against civilians. The British air force was constructed and used for bombing German residential areas. Once Washington entered the war, the US air force followed the same practice. The British/US bombing of Dresden is one of the worst war crimes in history, as were the atomic bombs dropped on the civilian populations of two Japanese cities while the Japanese were trying to surrender. [I'm not convinced re trying to surrender. -MS] In the early months of WW II, Hitler prohibited the German air force from bombing civilian areas in Britain. It was the relentless bombing of German civilians that forced Hitler to reverse his policy.

When one considers the massive war crimes the US committed against German and Japanese civilians, it is amazing that these people are so firmly committed to Washington’s will.

Recall Vietnam, the napalm and Agent Orange dropped on villagers, the picture of the naked little girl fleeing the flames, the relentless bombing of civilians in Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, weddings, funerals, children’s soccer games, the shelling by Ukrainian Neo-Nazis, with support from the American liberal press, of civilians in Donbass. The West conducts war by terror.
Putin told the Russian soldiers before sending them into Donbass that Russia does not fight this way. He prohibited them from using heavy weapons in civilian areas. It was the cowardly Ukrainian military and the Neo-Nazi Azov thugs who took refuge among civilians where they could fire heavy weapons and not be targeted by Russian heavy weapons.

Like Lee, for Putin forbearance is a virtue, a moral principle that you don’t sacrifice for war. Like Lee, Putin told the troops that “we make war only upon armed men.”
Putin has stuck to this policy despite the narrative’s portrayal of him as a war criminal murdering women and children. In other words, Putin is not restraining the use of violence against civilians because he expects credit for his forbearance, but because it is a virtue to which he holds.

When one looks honestly, one sees clearly that the virtue the West claims does not exist.
My problem with Putin’s forbearance is that it is not only no longer an admired virtue in the West but also so foreign to the modern Western mind that it is interpreted as indecision and weakness. Consequently, the provocations of Russia multiply and worsen. In brief, Putin’s forbearance is resulting in red lines being crossed that will end in nuclear war.

Putin’s problem is unique in the modern world. His virtue of forbearance is what is driving the world to nuclear war. His virtue is seen as weakness against which more threatening pushes can be made. The question is real whether Putin’s forbearance will bring on Armageddon.
This is the reason, not bloody-mindedness, that I have said that the Kremlin’s use of military force in Ukraine needed to be awesome and quickly concluded in total success in order to establish in Washington and the capitals of Europe that the policy of poking the bear is a fools game that brings certain death and destruction.

If Russia had delivered blitzkrieg to Ukraine, the governments of Europe would be disengaging from NATO, not trying to join it. Washington would gain recognition that the neoconservatives’ policy of American hegemony was extremely costly. It would be possible for voices to speak in favor of a more restrained policy.

Instead, what we have is a narrative of Russian loss and defeat, and not a single country the least bit scared of offending Russia. Weapons, money, diplomatic support for the Ukrainian Nazis is flowing in from the Western World. Yesterday the national newspaper in the capital of the Western World, the Washington Post, editorialized: “The world must not forget Mariupol’s defenders. They are heroes.”
The “heroes” are the Neo-Nazi Azov thugs, a collection of war criminals, many of whom are likely to be tried in Russian courts for war crimes. This editorial should tell us all we should know about the depraved West. Does it tell Putin anything?"


So the boys and girls in St. Petersburg ARE awake. They're stretching and reaching out to try and persuade the southern conservative that Putin's war is right and just. Took long enough for some targeted psyops bullsh*t to come out. This report is a good exercise in half truths, ignorance, all mashed up with a heaping helping of "patriotism".


Didn't work. Give me a break.
 

MinnesotaSmith

Membership Revoked
That was painful to read. Lee was an honorable man. Putin is a thug who steals from his own countrymen, murders his political opponents and restricts many basic freedoms. Those 2 names shouldnt be in the same article.
Go look on Vox Day's site. The second article is one about how Soros is pushing for Russia's total defeat in the war. Soros is nearly always on the side of the worst evil. You may want to pick different friends.
 

mecoastie

Veteran Member
Go look on Vox Day's site. The second article is one about how Soros is pushing for Russia's total defeat in the war. Soros is nearly always on the side of the worst evil. You may want to pick different friends.
So if I am not a Putin fanboy I need to pick different friends?

Maybe we should not be friends with any of them. Guess what they are all evil. Soros, Biden, Obama, Xi, Putin. All different sides of the same coin. There is nothing noble or grand about any of them. Ukraine is a gang war. No different than the ones that take place on the streets in the US. Just larger. It is Putins criminal enterprise vs Biden/Soros/Obamas criminal enterprise with Xis criminal enterprise watching and hoping to slide in after those 2 have beat themselves up.

Does Putin murder his political opponents? Did Lee? Does Putin make billions on energy and defense deals in Russia? Did Lee? Does Putin restrict freedom of speech, freedom of assembly and freedom of the press? Did Lee? What are the requirements for an average citizen to own a firearms in Putins Russia? Would you go live in Putins Russia?

In your own words, not some other article, how are Putin and Lee similar? What makes you a fan of Vlad Putin?
 

MinnesotaSmith

Membership Revoked
In your own words, not some other article, how are Putin and Lee similar? What makes you a fan of Vlad Putin?
Restraint in going to war, limiting nonmil casualties and property damage once at war, pro-Christian, nationalists, anti-homosexual agenda, not antiwhite racists, pro-natal, served in uniform in armed military branch, not notorious for being drunks/druggies/ sexual pervs/ unfaithful to their wives, etc.
 

naegling62

Veteran Member
Restraint in going to war, limiting nonmil casualties and property damage once at war, pro-Christian, nationalists, anti-homosexual agenda, not antiwhite racists, pro-natal, served in uniform in armed military branch, not notorious for being drunks/druggies/ sexual pervs/ unfaithful to their wives, etc.
All good points for the man. He still is no Robert E. Lee.
 

Dennis Olson

Chief Curmudgeon
_______________
I would have to say that no right thinking person would be backing the democrat/NWO/EU/WEF/Soros/Obama side.
With all due respect, Dennis
No American should support Communists. Ever. So what are you saying? Evidently something that need not be said.
 

Josie

Has No Life - Lives on TB
I visited with my 89-year-old mother yesterday. She told me that she's reading a book about our involvement in WWII. That in its self shocked me. History has never been her genre of choice. She also said she was APPALLED at the atrocities the Allies (which included the good old U.S. of A.) exercised on the Axis powers AND civilians. It was very hard for her to read and understand that the country she believed in as being good and benevolent, was actually no better than any of the rest of them and exercised the exact same principles as Russia is supposedly doing now.

Each and every day I am reminded that the U.S. is moving closer and closer to the communist government of old. History will ALWAYS repeat it's self.
 

mecoastie

Veteran Member
I visited with my 89-year-old mother yesterday. She told me that she's reading a book about our involvement in WWII. That in its self shocked me. History has never been her genre of choice. She also said she was APPALLED at the atrocities the Allies (which included the good old U.S. of A.) exercised on the Axis powers AND civilians. It was very hard for her to read and understand that the country she believed in as being good and benevolent, was actually no better than any of the rest of them and exercised the exact same principles as Russia is supposedly doing now.

Each and every day I am reminded that the U.S. is moving closer and closer to the communist government of old. History will ALWAYS repeat it's self.
Total war is hell. Whether is the firebombings of Tokyo or the rape of Berlin. No side is innocent. But they all thought they were fighting for what in their belief was right. Look at all the propaganda from any side. It does its best to dehumanize the enemy. You arent fighting men but animals. They walk like us but thats it.
 

Hfcomms

EN66iq
You arent fighting men but animals. They walk like us but thats it.

Makes it a lot easier to pull the trigger and that is the foundation laid for any kid going through boot camp and advanced infantry training or at least it was during the Cold War. I still remember running up and down the bayonet course shouting 'kill commie kill, more commie blood' we did that until we were hoarse and puking our guts out.
 

Countrymouse

Country exile in the city
If anything it is more of a nationalist dictatorship. All the power is with Putin.

I have long thought there is NO difference--beyond semantics--between "left" and (so-called) "right" autocratic, dictatorial regimes.

Fascist, Nazi, Socialist, Communist---

They ALL are about one dual goal:

POWER to themselves and utter DESTRUCTION of ANY enemies that stand in the way of that power.

ALL end up as totalitarian dictatorship regimes (whether headed by one person or a consortium of persons)

who deny all liberty to their people, crush them under slavery, and use them as cogs in their machine to further their power.
 

Troke

On TB every waking moment
The goal in WWII was to convince the Germans that war was not the first choice, it was the last choice, if any choice at all.

Since WWII, Germany has been at peace the longest in its history. Obliterating them worked.
 

Troke

On TB every waking moment
Washington and Lee were the two greatest men this country produced, for what they didn't do. Washington for not proclaiming himself King and Lee for not proclaiming a Confederate Jihad at the end of the Civil War.
 

jed turtle

a brother in the Lord
No American should support Communists. Ever. So what are you saying? Evidently something that need not be said.
No educated American would claim that the Russians are communists. They went there, did that for 70 years. Never again. That’s why the democrats now hate them. No longer best buddies. Putin and his countrymen are the only people fighting Nazis and the .n.w.o.

now Hillary, yeah she does murder her enemies. Big time, all the time.
 
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naegling62

Veteran Member
Washington and Lee were the two greatest men this country produced, for what they didn't do. Washington for not proclaiming himself King and Lee for not proclaiming a Confederate Jihad at the end of the Civil War.

Lee ended up saying surrender was a mistake:

"If I had foreseen the use those people designed to make of their victory, there would have been no surrender at Appomattox courthouse: no sir, not by me. Had I foreseen these results of subjugation, I would have preferred to die at Appomattox with my brave men, sword in my right hand”.

General Lee’s statement to former Governor of Texas, Fletchert Stockdale after the war..
 

Troke

On TB every waking moment
Lee ended up saying surrender was a mistake:

"If I had foreseen the use those people designed to make of their victory, there would have been no surrender at Appomattox courthouse: no sir, not by me. Had I foreseen these results of subjugation, I would have preferred to die at Appomattox with my brave men, sword in my right hand”.

General Lee’s statement to former Governor of Texas, Fletchert Stockdale after the war..
Interesting. Reconstruction was not handled well and it showed.
 
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