ENVR To Rebuild, or Not to Rebuild?

[kiawahman]

Viewing video after video of the incredible damage caused by hurricane Ian in Florida, I can't help but wonder if anyone has sense enough to abandon the impulse of rebuilding along the coast and move inland.

I used to live in the Fort Myers Beach area in the early 70's, it was being developed at a fast rate back then but still in its infancy state of growth. Only a fading memory makes it possible to remember what it used to be like. Every square inch of sand above water has a condo/hotel/marina/restaurant/shopping mall/bar/or million dollar+ mansion on it. Or, or at least did before Ian.

Fort Myers Beach is built basically on sand only 7' above sea level, Sanibel Island just 3' . Ian's storm surge was 17'. The devastation from this storm was epic. Estimated insurance costs could exceed 40 Billion$. I cannot even comprehend where all the debri will go, much less all the building materials needed to rebuild. With stronger storms and higher sea levels, is it worth it?

I would think that insurance companies would have a major voice in what happens next. They are already on the hook for this event, but what about in the future? Will insurance costs become so great that only the uber-rich can afford it, (and if ppl are that rich do they even bother with insurance)? What about the causeway to Sanibel Island? Who pays to rebuild that, taxpayers? Can it be rebuilt to withstand the next major storm in that area which could come at any time?

Will ppl roll the dice and rebuild, hoping for another 50 years before the next monster storm that wipes the beaches clean again? It's almost a sure thing to expect building materials to rise in cost and maybe even become more scarce here in Michigan as a result.

 

[Samuel Adams]

Michigan and Illinois (and the surrounding) certainly do offer a bit of stability…..in that regard.

 

[Millwright]

They keep rebuilding NOLA.

 

[Kathy in FL]

Just like with every hurricane in the past. Some people will move out, some people will move in. There are already locations in Florida that are considered "uninsurable" which means you can't get a mortgage on a property there. Next to the Cayo Costa State Park is one such location. People continue to build there and self-insure. Yes, the properties are worth in the millions but people still do it ... and continue to take the loss for any damages.

It isn't hurricanes that make the area next to Cayo Costa uninsurable, it is fire issues.

Insurance for the shore and in flood areas in Florida is already painfully expensive. Doesn't stop people from building/re-building.

Of course years back insurance changed and you need to know what you are covered for. Flooding? You definitely have to have a separate flood insurance policy and I think the only provider is the feds. That came about, not because of hurricanes, but all the flooding along rivers about 20 years ago. Wiped out entire towns. And they rebuilt.

Also, not all insurance is replacement cost. Need to watch those stipulations in the policy. And if you don't make the recommended changes they will drop you like a hot potato.

Sanibel, Captiva, Pine Island, etc. rebuilt after Charley in 2004 and memories for some are short to nonexistent. So I expect the area to be rebuilt. It will take a bit, just like it is taking a bit for Mexico Beach to completely rebuild in the panhandle from the year of storms about 5 years ago.

 

[Vulture45-70]

NO to rebuild. The rich get bit again. No pity on this end. My home situated 82 feet above sea level in the panhandle of FL.

 

[Blacknarwhal]

Where does something like this end?

It's one thing to tell people not to rebuild on some little wisp of island. But what happens when we tell people they can't build in Iowa? What, are you STUPID? You're building your house possibly DIRECTLY IN THE PATH OF A TORNADO! Don't you care about your FAMILY? Won't somebody puh-LEEZE think of the children??

Then it's Kansas. Illinois. Indiana. Oh, why would you build in a state where blizzards are a regular occurrence?? Why would you build in a state where wildfires happen sometimes!? There was FLOODING here once!

Eventually you can only live in one of five mega-city towers because everywhere is just too darn dangerous!

And then the Deep State wins.

 

[billet]

After living in Fl the last 34 yrs and going thru several hurricanes, I long ago decided that if my home is ever destroyed, we will not rebuild. We'll sell the property and slab and move on.

 

[Luddite]

They keep rebuilding NOLA.

And Moore OK...

I'm torn. Once a property owner has received ONE relief, I think there must be some limit to goobermint outlay.

We had a thousand year flood here in Appalachia where I live. The county did everything in their power to keep some landowners from rebuilding.

Common sense needs to go with compassion...

 

[Griz3752]

I think the OP will be fuel to light that debate up. And, it will be a long and hot one.

 

[raven]

there are always people with so much money they do not worry about being in financial hardship and the idea of throwing away a few million for the dream of living "in a perfect climate" "on the beach" "in Paradise" is just worth it.

 

[Samuel Adams]

Build with your own money (resources)

Repair with your own money (resources)


Debate over

 

[dstraito]

 

[Blue 5]

I would imagine that most insurance companies will eventually stop serving the Florida market. Too much exposure.

As it is now, I'm reading that some insurers are requiring things like replacing water heaters on a fixed schedule (regardless of condition), installing those tacky-looking corrugated metal panels on windows (perfect for creating flying guillotines!), even if you have hurricane-rated windows, and other hoops for homeowners to jump through just to have insurance. It's becoming nearly impossible to afford to live there, but I think that's what the elites want.

 

[Sacajawea]

Sigh. Having lived a mile from the beach - and dealing with the mortgage AND the state requirements for insurance - and going thru several storms (nothing quite as bad as this in my area)... the expenses are rediculous! I put storm shutters on all the exposed glass - and still couldn't get a discount on insurance because I didn't do ALL the windows. The walls of the house were reinforced with steel beams between 2 floors; the walls were at least 8-10" thick; we were above flood stage; and we did not front on a large body of water. Never had an insurance claim in 6 years & 3 storms. (Not counting nor'easters.) Did have to fix a couple shingles once.

It's doable if you use some common sense and have deep pockets to keep up with the maintenance. But it's not a great investment. You will - given a long enough timeline - have to do some rebuilding sooner or later. And the lifestyle isn't the kind of thing I can do long-term. It was actually pretty boring for me. I think most beach areas are a high percentage of vacation rentals to permanent residents... and that might make more dollars & sense... I don't know.

But I've been back in my mountains about the same length of time I was at the beach - and I am much happier here.

 

[Dobbin]

Have not many insurers "pulled back" on flood insurance?

And has not the Federal Government jumped in to "save" the poor consumers who couldn't get flood coverage?

Your tax dollars at work - modifying the marketplace to some image other than free or enterprise.

National Flood Insurance Program - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The National Flood Insurance Program (NFIP) is a program created by the Congress of the United States in 1968 through the National Flood Insurance Act of 1968 (P.L. 90-448). The NFIP has two purposes: to share the risk of flood losses through flood insurance and to reduce flood damages by restricting floodplain development. The program enables property owners in participating communities to purchase insurance protection, administered by the government, against losses from flooding, and requires flood insurance for all loans or lines of credit that are secured by existing buildings, manufactured homes, or buildings under construction, that are located in the Special Flood Hazard Area in a community that participates in the NFIP. U.S. Congress limits the availability of National Flood Insurance to communities that adopt adequate land use and control measures with effective enforcement provisions to reduce flood damages by restricting development in areas exposed to flooding.

Reading above, there may be good rationale here.

I see both a "treat" (sharing losses) and a goad. (regulating development)

Owner has said that he does not have flood insurance, but he is elevation 70 plus above the nearest watercourse.

Dobbin

 

[Dobbin]

But I've been back in my mountains about the same length of time I was at the beach - and I am much happier here.

Owner tells of his Great-Uncle who in the early years of the 20th century remarked that "I prefer the mountains to the seashore."

And everyone laughed.

Because they all knew he had never been to either. (Small town boy.)

Dobbin

 

[Macgyver]

They just need to start building properly for the land.
Poured concrete and elevated.
Even here in NJ on the coast anything new is on legs.

 

[ShadowMan]

Here on the Left Coast we deal with earthquakes....so our building codes reflect that. Old buildings are "retrofitted", bridges reinforced. We learn how better to build after each event and fewer and fewer buildings are damaged. In the mid-west they deal with tornadoes. Newer homes can be built to withstand that threat. Smart people have a storm cellar or tornado bunker.

The same can be done in Florida. Back around the 70's or 80's, in North or South Carolina I believe, they got hit directly with a strong hurricane. Wiped out a bunch of beach front property. One owner had a son that was either an engineer or architect. He asked his son to design a hurricane proof home, and he did. Imagine a partially buried egg in the sand. It was a monolithic reinforced concrete structure. Very modern looking with large surrounding decks inside the outer egg shell shape. It had drop down steel shutters on all open exposed decks and windows. NOTHING FOR THE WIND TO CATCH!!

Along comes another big hurricane a few years later. The owner closed up his new home and rode out the storm.....without a single bit of damage. However when he opened up the steel shutters all his neighbors homes were gone!!!! We can build homes that will survive disasters, and in places like this those are the only homes that should be allowed.

When I first visited Japan back in the 70's I wondered about the Japanese concrete homes and buildings with concrete and tile roofs. Looked really solid and heavy. Then a typhoon hit the south end of the main island and military base I was on. Myself and several Marine buddies made it off base and into the village to ride out the storm in one of our favorite bars there. Lots of wind. Lots of water blowing under the door. Power went out and the momma-san brought in oil lanterns for light and we partied on through the next several days. When it was over, walking back to base there were a lot of trees torn up but the building damage was just a few missing concrete tiles here and otherwise were just fine. The base on the other hand was pretty much a mess and took days to clean up. The reinforced concrete buildings on the base and strangely the quanset huts we were living in faired well. Stick frame buildings not so much.

We need to build for the potential threat not for pretty looks.

 

[Josie]

Viewing video after video of the incredible damage caused by hurricane Ian in Florida, I can't help but wonder if anyone has sense enough to abandon the impulse of rebuilding along the coast and move inland.

I dunno about the coasts but people get flooded out on the Mississippi river quite frequently. They usually come back and build the house higher!

 

[Firebird]

They will rebuild, people will continue to flock to Florida, but our insurance costs are about to escalate!

 

[Txkstew]

After Hurricane Ike hit the Bolivar Peninsula, across from Galveston Island, it pretty much wiped out all the development along there. Everything was rebuilt, but all cabins and other habitations had to be 17 feet above ground. Makes a beach cabin look goofy sitting up that high. You can't even build a bathroom on the ground level. The new High School is now on a man made hill.

 

[nomifyle]

My 82 year old cousin that lives in Sanford, FL has been self insuring for about 7 years. The premiums got really expensive as was the deductable. So for 7 years she has been putting the money she would have paid out in premiums in the bank. Obviously you have to be able to pay those premiums to do that. She is very savy with handling money. Her grandson that lives next door, in a house that grandma and grandpa bought, hasn't got a pot to pee in.

The Mississippi Gulf coast always rebuilds.

 

[Dennis Olson]

Well, let me pull a total WAG outta my ass.


Your question is ridiculous. You already know the answer.


These n00bs…

 

[crossbowboy]

Michigan and Illinois (and the surrounding) certainly do offer a bit of stability…..in that regard.

You used "Illinois" and "stability" in the same sentence, regardless of regard.



You good, Sam...?

 

[hiwall]

I know nothing about living near any ocean. But growing up in Minnesota I remember the Red River Valley flooding and destroying homes there. And the homes would be rebuilt. Then a few years later there would be another flood and the homes would be rebuilt. The cycle is still going on.
I always thought those people must be stupid.

 

[Samuel Adams]

You used "Illinois" and "stability" in the same sentence, regardless of regard.



You good, Sam...?

Topography

Weather patterns

Political climate


You know, all the stuff you can DEPEND on remaining somewhat static.

 

[Dennis Olson]

Of those three, only topography can be considered “static.”

 

[Dennis Olson]

Bear in mind that except for Florida’s “Mt. Trashmore,” there is no point in that state higher than about 30’ above mean sea level.

 

[Samuel Adams]

Of those three, only topography can be considered “static.”

Oh, I assure you, Illinois political climate is as static as it comes.

Never changes…..ever.

 

[Cowgirl4christ]

I work for a major appliance factory (USA made) and I’m getting calls from dealers in Fort Myers. One of them said places more inland are rebuilding but along the beach …. it’s destroyed and won’t come back any time soon. I felt so sorry for the guy. He sounded exhausted and overwhelmed. He was checking lead times for 15 different models for 3 customers. They were wiped out. I had a few others, but he was right in the middle of it all and the others were National dealers.

 

[crossbowboy]

Oh, I assure you, Illinois political climate is as static as it comes.

Never changes…..ever.

3 gallons per flush, for life.

10-4.

 

[Publius]

The government bailing out the rich has been an on going thing for some time now.
Having lived in Long Island there is a place out in the Hamptons called Dune Road and a lot of wealthy people own homes out there on that long thin strip of land, the real estate there now go's from one million dollar$ and up and no one has insurance despite the fact they can pay for these homes out of pocket, so we the people end up footing the bill to rebuild many of these vacation homes after each storm.

 

[Wildweasel]

Bear in mind that except for Florida’s “Mt. Trashmore,” there is no point in that state higher than about 30’ above mean sea level.

I beg to disagree. Orlando, located on the ridge that divides FL between east and west drainage sits at 80ftMSL. Tallahassee sits at 200ft MSL while less than an hour from the Gulf. Several spots in the panhandle at the toe of the Appalachians are over 300ft MSL.

Eglin AFB sits right on the Gulf but elevation changes from sea level to near 100ft MSL in under a half mile from the beach to the airfield. And straight north along the "Appalachian ridge" are the highest spots in the state.

I researched this in considering a move to Florida, thinking the Panhandle would be the best spot to avoid coastal flooding/storm surge problems.

 

[Dennis Olson]

I don’t count the panhandle, as that’s part of the greater US land mass. However, I stand corrected on the others.

 

[Chapulin]

We have moved towns away from the Mississippi River flood plains in Illinois. I am not sure we can do the same thing on the coasts. Hurricanes are a major disaster like Tornados and Fires and Earthquakes. I am interested in the solar Babcock Ranch that survived the hurricane further inland.

 

[Millwright]

I would imagine that most insurance companies will eventually stop serving the Florida market. Too much exposure.

As it is now, I'm reading that some insurers are requiring things like replacing water heaters on a fixed schedule (regardless of condition), installing those tacky-looking corrugated metal panels on windows (perfect for creating flying guillotines!), even if you have hurricane-rated windows, and other hoops for homeowners to jump through just to have insurance. It's becoming nearly impossible to afford to live there, but I think that's what the elites want.

Hurricane panels are well anchored and they work.

It's code to have them in Miami.

 

[Matt]

This argument can be applied to every disaster prone area... fire, tornado alley, earth quake zones, etc. Where you gonna put all those people? I sure as hell don't want all those folks in my neighborhood....

 

[CaBuckeye]

We have a similar issue in California. You have to buy"special" earthquake insurance coverage sponsored by the state through your normal insurance company. The majority of California homeowners cannot afford this type of insurance( not all of us are multi-millionaires) so if a really big quake hits the Bay Area where I live, most of us will be screwed.

Luckily, we are over 10 miles from the nearest fault and rode through the Loma Preita quake with no damage. The waves went directly under our house and went on to wipe out the the Cypress Freeway in Oakland. Your Location and type of soil is critical as to the type of shaking the impact your house. Although we are very near the Bay, the actual ground is near bedrock hills.

If I had elected to buy the earthquake insurance, the annual premium for my house, which is only 1500 square feet built in the 1950's, is over $6,000. The last big quake we had we had was the Loma Preita in 1989. If I had bought the policy back then, I would have shelled out around $200,000 so far with no expected return. Unless the house is totally destroyed, which I doubt very much, the damage should be limited. So for now, I'm self-insuring myself like I do my car. Hopefully, this turns out to be a "wise" decision and not a catastrophic mistake.

 

[okie-carbine]

This argument can be applied to every disaster prone area... fire, tornado alley, earth quake zones, etc. Where you gonna put all those people? I sure as hell don't want all those folks in my neighborhood....

This.

There are natural disasters all over the country. You just have to figure out where you want to live and live there. That's what insurance is for.

 

[Profit of Doom]

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