GUNS/RLTD The Winchester lever legacy..

ElkHollow

Veteran Member
For you lever fans out there.. FYI....

ELK...................:dstrs:

There is so much publishing going on in the sporting arms field that even those of us who are smack in the middle of it sometimes get behind. I've spent a few evenings trying to catch up on noteworthy items, and I'll spend this month's column trying to give a few condensed reviews of them.

Just recently, a big, heavy hard cover entitled The Winchester Lever Legacy has appeared, and to a major degree its title is misleading. Whereas one is led to believe the book is about Winchester lever actions, it quickly turns into a discussion of the cartridges of yore and how to reload them today for continued fun with the old lever guns. Mention of the guns themselves is minimal.

That is not a rap against the book, however, as it serves a different purpose, one that will interest Winchester collectors and enthusiasts who would like to keep the guns popping but haven't had any recent information on the subject. For example, when's the last time you saw a reloading manual with advice about handloading the .38-56 WCF or the .40-82 WCF?

And not only does the book cover many of the ancient, obsolete Winchester cartridges, but it also handles the various wildcats which were designed for improved ballistics from some of these guns. For instance, there's the .348 Ackley Improved, which is the .348 WCF fireformed in an enlarged chamber to provide more powder capacity; and the .450x348, which is the .348 WCF necked up to .45 caliber and fireformed also in an enlarged chamber. Both these wildcats have sharper shoulder angles than the original .348 and increased downrange energies.

There is some information about bringing the .405 WCF back into action by using 9.3x74mmR cases, something that can also be done to activate the .35 Winchester. And there's a discussion of the .219 Zipper and its smaller buddy, the .218 Bee.

Information abounds for the use of lead (cast) bullets, plus cartridge dimensions, conversion concepts, and some chronograph readings for handloads.

Compiled by Clyde "Snooky" Williams and published by the Buffalo Press (Dept. SI, 3145 Church St., Zachary, Louisiana, 70791), The Winchester Lever Legacy is recommended for dealers and shooters wherever there's an interest in handloading for the old classic lever guns.

Sierra bullets has also updated their reloading manual with a 3rd edition set of two loose-leaf offerings. One covers rifles, while the other focuses on handguns. The initial appearance of each folder is magnetic. Using a grey background, Sierra has gone the patriotic route by superimposing bullets and the title on a ruffled American flag. Very attractive. And on the back of the folder we find the Second Amendment of the U.S. Bill of Rights.

This 3rd edition of the Sierra manual announces the retirement of Martin J. "Jim" Hull, who for years has been chief ballistician at Sierra, and we wish him a long and happy retirement. Jim has been a factor at Sierra since 1953, which is about when I reloaded my first metallic stuff for the .30-30 with an old Lyman 310 "nutcracker" tool. Seems like yesterday, doesn't it, Jim?

Anyway, the Sierra handgun folder covers the normal nuts and bolts of procedure, plus some articles by writers of note in the metallic field like Bob Milek and Rick Jamison and J.D. Jones. The rear of the book is again heavy with exterior ballistics tables (drop values, retained energies, etc.).

But between the extremes, we find lots of coverage for the many various cartridges that have been sneaking into the handgun field. Some of these are rather new, such as the .445 Super Mag., the .41 Action Express, and the .270 REN (note REN, not REM), which is a variant of the .22 Hornet opened to .27 caliber. And there are the TCU, IHMSA, and Herrett lines along with the popular Remington BR round in 6mm. The golden oldies fill in, with some of the old-timers regaining a sense of dignity, one being the .32-20 Win., which has been recuperated for the Hunter's pistol and Field Pistol events staged by the NRA and IHMSA, respectively. In one breath, the Sierra handgun manual comes highly recommended for all handgunners, but especially those with tournament aspirations.

The Sierra rifle manual is massive at 856 pages as opposed to 704 for the handgun tome (which is already substantial). It follows the same format with gun editors contributing some early chapters. Rick Jamison covers chronographs, Bob Milek treats on hunting bullet selection, and Jim Hull takes care of reloading for accuracy. Skip Gordon does a nice job on the background and evolution of competitive benchrest shooting. They're all good reading. Part III of the rifle manual is given to the specific tasks for which the various Sierra bullets are designed as hunting projectiles. Written by Bob Milek, it explains the correct choices and proves that all bullets aren't alike. It's an important topic, one that beginners should be encouraged to research.

After the basic how-to-do-it stuff, the manual Launches into the data for many, many cartridges, beginning with the .22 Hornet and ending with the .458 Winchester Magnum. Included are the 9mm Luger and .45 ACP rounds because of Marlin's launching of these chamberings in semi-auto carbines.



My only problems with the Sierra rifle manual is that it hasn't applied any of the newer powders and that it tends to utilize the 26-inch Universal test barrel which is so much longer than hunting-length barrels and turns up ballistics which are higher than those most handloading hunters get. If I were Sierra, I'd chop those test barrels back to conventional hunting lengths for each respective cartridge. It is quite possible that Sierra undertook its testing before powders like Scot's Brigadier line came along. However, IMR-7828 was around earlier, and it is absent from cartridges in which it is quite suitable. And there is nothing on Hodgdon's H-4350, although it too has been around for more than a couple years. I also felt that rounds like the .257 Roberts and some of the 6.5mms were shorted by being listed mainly with fast or moderate-rate powders, while some of the slower-rate fuels can enhance their performances, especially that of the .257 Roberts' "+P" version.

Aside from the absented powders, however, the manual gives adequate data to get most reloaders cooking. The rear of the book is again filled with downrange data concerning trajectory and energies carried to 500 yards. It is well worth the reading, and dealers would do well to point out both manuals to their customers. In fact, the catchy covers might attract buyers by themselves.

Out of Wilmington, Delaware, comes another 3rd edition reloading manual, this one from Doc Watson of the Scot Powder Company. Listed at a low $2.00, this 48-page booklet, The Shotshell, Handgun and Rifle Reloading Manual, is jammed with pressure/velocity data for that firm's line of nitrocotton-based powders: Solo 1000 [R], Solo 1250 [R], Solo 1500 [R]; Royal Scot [R] and Pearl-Scot [R]; and the rifle fuels "Brigadier [R]" 4197, 3032, 4065, and 4351.

One of the first questions that reloaders ask when introduced to Scot powders is, "Which powder bushing should I use?" It's a legitimate query, of course. And pages 6-7 of the Scot manual number 3 are taken up by listings of appropriate powder bushings for MEC, Hornady Models 336 and 155 and Ponsness-Warren [R] presses along with those bushings for the Lee [R] Auto Disk. For example, the #30 MEC [R] bushing is listed to drop 18.2 grains of Solo 1000, which is a good starting point for trap and skeet shooters using the powder for the first time.

The Scot manual covers basic rifle and handgun reloads, the shotshell powders also serving in the metallics for pistol use.

One point that should be made is that Solo 1500 is an excellent slow-rate shotshell powder, but the Scot people recommend different wad seating pressures for each respective reload. These recommended wad seating pressures are given in the manual, which is one reason to have the booklet at hand. Another reason is because it supplies data for a host of extra-light 12-gauge target loads (1-1/8 ounce) with low recoil factors at velocities around 1,125 f.p.s.

Another point about the Scot Manual is that it has extensive data for the line of Claybuster wads now entering the replacement wad business. The manufacturers of Claybuster wads haven't printed any pressure data (something which has always made me hesitant to pick up on a wad), but Scot Powder Co. has run data vis-a-vis other wads so that we can get a line at how the Claybusters perform with Scot fuels. I don't know of any other outfit that has done this with Claybuster wads, including Claybuster chaps!

Indeed, for the short time Doc Watson has been in the powder business, he has surely put it all together for a neat publishing effort.

One final 1990 publication that needs mention is Hercules Powder Co.'s annual Reloaders' Guide for Hercules Smokeless Powders, which is offered free through dealers. This year's booklet of 52 pages includes considerable data regarding Hercules' newest rifle powders: Reloder [R] 15, 19, and 22. Be careful about how you read these data, as some are listed in p.s.i. values and some in c.u.p. values -- and there is a difference, as is explained on page 52 of the booklet.

Hercules, too, has listed some "Lite" load concepts for the 12 gauge with 1-1/8 ounce shot charges. I note that they use 1,090 f.p.s. for their published velocity (3-foot instrumental, coil), which tends to mean that the actual muzzle velocity is still above 1,100 f.p.s. from a full-choked trap gun of 30" or more, perhaps around 1,125 f.p.s. or thereabouts. These are tremendously efficient target reloads, in the Remington "Premier" hull, requiring no more than 16 grains of Red Dot [R] in some instances. You customers who are always trying to economize will enjoy looking at the Hercules Guide, which is priced just right for public consumption.


COPYRIGHT 1990 Publishers' Development Corporation
COPYRIGHT 2008 Gale, Cengage Learning
 

Double_A

TB Fanatic
Here is another of the Winchester legacies.

The Winchester Mystery House is a well-known California mansion that was under construction continuously for 38 years, and is reported to be haunted. It once was the personal residence of Sarah Winchester, the widow of gun magnate William Wirt Winchester, but is now a tourist attraction.

Winchester inherited more than $20.5 million upon her husband's death. She also received nearly 50 percent ownership of the Winchester Repeating Arms Company, giving her an income of roughly $1,000 per day, none of which was taxable until 1913. This amount is roughly equivalent to $21,000 a day in 2008. All of this gave her a tremendous amount of wealth to fund construction on the large mansion.

The technology in the home is very fascinating and advanced for it's time. They have a million bucks in Tiffany Stained Glass windows and doors. They made extensive use of technology in it's day. Yet they practiced simple conservation and recycling. For example veggie cutting boards in food prep areas drained water through pipes from the second story kitchen area to the garden below to recycle used water.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winchester_Mystery_House

They have a nice Winchester Rifle & Shotgun museum

National Historic Site and best of all it's a mile and a half from me!
 

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ersatzpanther

Senior Member
The Winchester house is also one weird place. Stairways to nowhere, closet doors that are against walls, you name it.

That old lady Winchester was one weird loon. Too much money, not enough education or whatever.
 

Red Baron

Paleo-Conservative
_______________
The first rifle I owned was a Marlin 336 30-30 bought new for the princely sum of $88.00 at K-Mart in the early seventies. My Bear compound bow was $150.00 at the same time.

I liked the rifle so much I ditched the bow.

Also the first caliber I handloaded for, using Herter's reloading equipment.

IIRC the Winchesters were more expensive and didn't lend themselves to scope mounting. Although the Winchester lever gun is a real classic.

The Marlin with a Bushnell 2X low mounted scope could shoot 1/12" - 2" groups all day at 100 yards. Hits at 200 yards were easy with a little practice.

I sold the Marlin and went to magnum bolt action rifles but now I wish I still had the Marlin. Cheap ammo, easy to load for, high magazine capacity, a short, light and portable weapon.

A lever gun is great tool and a great preppers rifle.
 

Dex

Constitutional Patriot
I wouldn't mind having a Model 94 one of these days but thats the only lever I've ever wanted and it's a common caliber.

I've been to the Winchester House, neat place.
 

Double_A

TB Fanatic
In the days before local PD's having AR15's racked next to their shotguns, Jeff Cooper suggested that the 30-30 level gun was a good police rifle. The round was sized for a 150lb deer (human), range and speed of fire.

Of course we are talking about the 1960's & 1970's times for Police have changed, weapons have changed and tactics have changed. (so please don't post that my suggestion is stupid for these times, I know that and will call you a moron- lol)
 

Pass Go

Deceased
(so please don't post that my suggestion is stupid for these times) DA

That conjures kind of a funny image - cops with 30-30's...

"These times" couldn't be more different.
 

Mr. Dot

Inactive
I love the Winchester House. Would like to have wandered through it before the 1906 quake when the tower was still standing:

http://www.winchestermysteryhouse.com/wmhpress/Exterior%20Tower.jpg

If memory serves the window latches are Winchester rifle levers. Very cool place.



Here is another of the Winchester legacies.

The Winchester Mystery House is a well-known California mansion that was under construction continuously for 38 years, and is reported to be haunted. It once was the personal residence of Sarah Winchester, the widow of gun magnate William Wirt Winchester, but is now a tourist attraction.

Winchester inherited more than $20.5 million upon her husband's death. She also received nearly 50 percent ownership of the Winchester Repeating Arms Company, giving her an income of roughly $1,000 per day, none of which was taxable until 1913. This amount is roughly equivalent to $21,000 a day in 2008. All of this gave her a tremendous amount of wealth to fund construction on the large mansion.

The technology in the home is very fascinating and advanced for it's time. They have a million bucks in Tiffany Stained Glass windows and doors. They made extensive use of technology in it's day. Yet they practiced simple conservation and recycling. For example veggie cutting boards in food prep areas drained water through pipes from the second story kitchen area to the garden below to recycle used water.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winchester_Mystery_House

They have a nice Winchester Rifle & Shotgun museum

National Historic Site and best of all it's a mile and a half from me!
 
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Double_A

TB Fanatic
(so please don't post that my suggestion is stupid for these times) DA

That conjures kind of a funny image - cops with 30-30's...

"These times" couldn't be more different.

Even stranger... cops back then carried BLUE STEEL REVOLVERS :eek:

Except the really cool cops who all ran out and bought S&W 66's
 

Jarhead

Has No Life - Lives on TB
IIRC, wasn't there a curse put on Old Lady Winchester by an Indian Medicine man that she would die when the construction on the house was finished. That is why there were so many additions, stairways to nowhere and doors opening into walls. Constantly building to stave off death.

Jarhead
:usm:
 

Thunderbird

Veteran Member
I remember a column in which Jeff Cooper mentioned a student at one of his rifle courses participated using a lever gun. He commented the student was not very handicaped by his choice in rifles.
 

Double_A

TB Fanatic
IIRC, wasn't there a curse put on Old Lady Winchester by an Indian Medicine man that she would die when the construction on the house was finished. That is why there were so many additions, stairways to nowhere and doors opening into walls. Constantly building to stave off death.

Jarhead
:usm:

No curse by Indian, BUT, Sara Winchester had a psychic reading and was told the souls of all the people killed by Winchester rifles were haunting her, that was the cause of her problems. Building 24hrs 7 days a week could keep these souls at bay. So that's what she did day and night. It's really a fabulous place. She had everything you could imagine including a carbide gas generator system for Gas lamps and later IIRC her own electric power plant.

The gun collection is nice, but so is the collection of handtools and flashlights.
 

Jarhead

Has No Life - Lives on TB
No curse by Indian, BUT, Sara Winchester had a psychic reading and was told the souls of all the people killed by Winchester rifles were haunting her, that was the cause of her problems. Building 24hrs 7 days a week could keep these souls at bay. So that's what she did day and night. It's really a fabulous place. She had everything you could imagine including a carbide gas generator system for Gas lamps and later IIRC her own electric power plant.

The gun collection is nice, but so is the collection of handtools and flashlights.

Yep, that was it! Thanks, Double A. They say a sure sign of getting old is when you loose 3 things. The first is memory and I can't seem to remember the other 2. :whistle:
My Bad.........

Jarhead
:usm:
 

Red Baron

Paleo-Conservative
_______________
I remember a column in which Jeff Cooper mentioned a student at one of his rifle courses participated using a lever gun. He commented the student was not very handicaped by his choice in rifles.

In the 70's our IPSC club hosted an annual rifle match.

Stage One consisted of an IPSC paper target setup at 100 yards. The gun was held pointing downrange at or below waist level with the safety on. On command the shooter had two seconds to fire one shot at the target. This was fired for a total of five attempts.

Stage Two had 10 IPSC shaped metal targets to be engaged from five different firing points spaced out along a 200 yard long "Jungle Lane" set up in an abandoned gravel pit. Target range varied from 10 yards (the sneaky target at the very end) out to 350 yards. Each target had to be hit once with a maximum of three rounds to be expended at any one target. Scoring for this stage was a combination of shortest time versus hits.

An amazing variety of weapons were on hand. In the days before "tacticool" the 7.62 NATO HK-91's were the "big thing". Also seen were AR-15's, AR-180, M1A's, M-1 Garand, FN-FAL, M-1 carbine and a hodge podge of bolt action rifles.

Not to brag but I came in second place with a Remington 700 BDL bolt gun chambered for 7mm Remington Magnum.

Just illustrates that practice makes perfect.
 

colonel holman

Veteran Member
My first deer was with my grandfather's win 94 in .32 spl. I have it now and it is used by each of my kids as their first year carry gun, to keep up a tradition. There is even a new LeveRevolution round for the .32. Swweeet carbine to carry. My usual deer gun now is the Marlin Guide Gun in .45-70, ported barrel that is loud enough to have blown out my right eardrum (use hearing protection, especially when shooting from the front porch; and it makes the wind chimes tinkle!). The new LeveRevolution load for this is awesome, accurate easily out to 250yd at 350gr. due to its polymer tip. Now looking for a win 94 trapper in .357 as a truck gun.
 

Pass Go

Deceased
I went shooting with a buddy of mine who owned a .45-70 and shot a steel bath tub from about 200 yards. The damn thing flipped into the air! Very dynamic round, Colonel!

I wanted to have a "set" of firearms that I could easily procure ammo for so I bought a lever action rifle and six inch, and snub nose revolvers chambered in .357. That was back in the pre-Y2K days, but their purpose is still the same.

I might just go buy a .45-70 for the heck of it. Very impressive performance.
 
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colonel holman

Veteran Member
When that 45-70 round hits a deer, I swear you can see a brief flash of daylight shine thru before they keel over. Probably too much gun for deer, but whatever.
 

Pass Go

Deceased
When that 45-70 round hits a deer, I swear you can see a brief flash of daylight shine thru before they keel over. Probably too much gun for deer, but whatever. CH

Nah... Just shoot BIG deer!
 

Taz

Deceased
I have 2 lever action winchester 30-30. One is at least 60 years old and tho its a little worn inside, I still use it. My MIL killed 3 bear with it and I have no idea how many deer and elk in the Cascade Mtns of Wa. I just sold a 94 new in the box and have a new in the box Centennial that I have yet to shoot. Levering them is getting to be a bit much for this old lady, but you use what you are used to.

Taz
 

Maher

Inactive
I thought you'd all love seeing this. I plan to build myself one like this one this coming year. I saw it on one of my gun forums.
 

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Publius

TB Fanatic
I see gun shops now asking very high price for a used 94 these days and I don't know how millions of them winchester made but it should put a used 94 in the $200 or less price range.
 

Maher

Inactive
It's a Marlin. Probably a 336W (30-30) that has had the stock and forearm removed to accomodate some new composit replacements. It has what looks like a tactical advanced RGB sight and a tactical sling. When I get mine built, I'll post it. It looks to me like a perfect scout type rifle.

So far, I've gifted three Marlin 336s to three of my sons and I own a Winchester model 94 that I've had since I was 12 YO.
 

ittybit

Inactive
I have a Ruger 22 Mag rifle with lever action. Nice piece. Good energy transfer. forces one to focus on best first shot. Also, can't be mistaken for a semi. Thing leaves a very nice (large) exit.
 

WalknTrot

Veteran Member
My regular deer rifle is the Win Model 94 30-30, but when I know I will have a lot of walking to do on a day's hunt, I still take Great Gran-dad's Winchester .38-.40. What a sweet little rifle it is. And I am honored that my Grandma (who hunted with it 'til she was in her 80's) left it to me.
 
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