ENVR Recycling Doesn’t Work—and the Plastics Industry Knew It

Cardinal

Chickministrator
_______________
Hardly any plastics can be recycled. You’d be forgiven for not knowing that, given how much messaging Americans receive about the convenience of recycling old bottles and food containers—from the weekly curbside collections to the “chasing arrows” markings on food and beverage packaging. But here’s the reality: Between 1990 and 2015, some 90 percent of plastics either ended up in a landfill, were burned, or leaked into the environment. Another recent study estimates that just 5 to 6 percent are successfully recycled.

While those numbers may surprise you, these sorts of statistics aren’t news to the companies that produce plastics. For more than 30 years, the industry knew precisely how impractical it is to recycle them, according to a new report from the Center for Climate Integrity. A trade association called the Vinyl Institute concluded in a 1986 report that “recycling cannot be considered a permanent solid waste solution” to plastics, as it merely prolongs the time until an item is disposed of.” Still, facing public backlash over the growing amount of plastics being incinerated and piling up in landfills, manufacturers and their lobbyists sold recycling as an easy solution, warding off potential legislation to ban or limit plastics.

This, of course, has echoes of Big Tobacco and Big Oil, both of which withheld crucial information from the public for decades—causing untold damage to human health and the planet, respectively. Both industries are paying dearly for it. Is Big Plastic due for a similar reckoning?

In some sense, a reckoning is already happening—just not (yet) because of the industry’s decades of alleged deception, disastrous environmental justice record, and mass proliferation of microplastics into human bloodstreams. At the beginning of this year, S&P Global found that the petrochemicals industry—responsible for producing the suite of typically oil- and gas-derived compounds known as plastics, as well as pesticides and industrial chemicals—faces uncertain prospects over the coming years. “Overall, global petrochemicals prices appear to have reached a peak in October and are forecast to grind lower into early-2024 following energy and feedstock prices lower,” the consultancy found, forecasting a “supply-drive surplus” through 2026.

That all stands to make recycling even less practical than it already was, as recyclers already hungry to find buyers for the waste they collect now face a market where new plastics are a better bargain than recycled ones.
After the shale revolution took off in the 2010s, companies rushed to build petrochemical facilities in the United States to make use of abundant, cheap gas. Those facilities are inordinately sited in low-income communities of color, where residents suffer from elevated cancer risks, respiratory diseases, and birth defects. Both the U.S. and China are now producing a surplus of the industrial chemicals, like ethylene, used to make popular plastics such as polyethylene, to the point that new (“virgin”) plastics are cheaper than recycled alternatives. So as recyclers struggle to offload discarded plastics, companies that have flooded the market with fresh plastic are having trouble making good on the major investments they’ve made to produce them.

Among the biggest plastics producers in the U.S. are ExxonMobil and Shell. Shell opened a giant petrochemical plant in Beaver County, Pennsylvania, in 2022. On the company’s fourth-quarter earnings call, it admitted that costs for the project had soared 130 percent past the original estimates. An investigation by the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette found that, in the first year of the plant’s operations, its polyethylene units—which convert ethylene into tiny plastic beads—were shuttered as often as they were operational. Shell announced this week that it would be pulling out of talks to build a new petrochemicals plant in Basra, Iraq, having said it’ll cut down on “mega projects” like the Beaver County facility.

Oil and gas companies, including big state-owned firms like Saudi Aramco, have placed major bets on petrochemicals. Industry trade associations like the American Chemical Council and the Plastics Industry Association have routinely lobbied to kill or weaken efforts to limit plastics usage and regulate toxins used in their production. Meanwhile, we’re learning more about what the industry knew, and when. It should be a national scandal, replete with lawsuits and Capitol Hill hearings, that the companies responsible for the microplastics in our food, our tap water, our oceans, our bodies, even our placentas—truly everywhere—have cooked up one of the most successful, destructive lies in U.S. environmental history. Plastics are a plague, and the executives who produce them should be made into pariahs.

 

bw

Fringe Ranger
Recycling does indeed work. Look at dirt floor factories in India and Pakistan, turning trash plastic into furniture, ropes, plastic bags and all kinds of stuff. One reason they can make it work is their labor is so cheap. They can afford to pay people to strip labels off used plastic bottles.

It would be instructive to compare the recycling rates of rich countries to those of poor countries.
 

Cardinal

Chickministrator
_______________
Tell them to pound sand.
They probably would, if it weren't so full of microplastics.

Marine microplastics: How water mass dispersal impacts transport trajectories​

by Hannah Bird , Phys.org

Simulation of trajectories of microplastic particles released into the North Atlantic Ocean after 0 days (a), 12 days (b), 38 days (c) and 76 days (d). Credit: Credit: Frontiers in Marine Science (2024). DOI: 10.3389/fmars.2024.1314754
Marine microplastics (1 μm–5 mm diameter) are an ever-pressing concern, given their longevity in the environment (>100 years) and the effects they have on the organisms inhabiting them, particularly as ocean currents carry the particles vast distances, even reaching polar basins.

Often these microplastics wash up on beaches and mix in with the sandy shores familiar to us, but certain zones have become particular hot spots for microplastic pollution. Famously there are "garbage patches" associated with the five subtropical ocean gyres (circular currents in the North and South Atlantic Ocean, North and South Pacific Ocean and Indian Ocean) that have millions of km2 area of floating surface microplastics.

Previous studies have suggested that 15.6 trillion particles/year are added to the global floating marine debris crisis.
New research published in Frontiers in Marine Science has focused on the beaches of the Canary Islands, popular Spanish tourism resorts, investigating the potential origin and transport pathways of microplastics both across ocean basins and through the water column, until they ultimately wash ashore on these beaches.

Significantly, the Canary Islands are located within the North Atlantic subtropical gyre, as well as the direct path of the surface wind-driven Canary Current. Four north to north east-oriented beaches across the archipelago were studied for large-scale (>100 km) and meso-scale (10–100 km) transport mechanisms, these being: Playa Grande (Tenerife), Playa de Famara (Lanzarote), Playa Lambra (La Graciosa) and Arenas Blancas (El Hierro).

These beaches are known for marine debris issues, exceeding 100 g plastic/m2 and 3,000 particles/m2.
 

packyderms_wife

Neither here nor there.
Recycling does indeed work. Look at dirt floor factories in India and Pakistan, turning trash plastic into furniture, ropes, plastic bags and all kinds of stuff. One reason they can make it work is their labor is so cheap. They can afford to pay people to strip labels off used plastic bottles.

It would be instructive to compare the recycling rates of rich countries to those of poor countries.

This^^^ Was watching int'l news and they were featuring someplace in Nigeria where they were taking plastic waste and turning it into laundry baskets for the western market. Mind you the practices they were using are definitely not EPA or OSHA approved, however, they were getting it done!
 

Publius

TB Fanatic
Some county and or state recycling centers have stopped taking plastic milk jugs, water bottles and soda bottles as it cost more to transport them than they get for it and some have even stopped collecting glass for the same reason as they only get ten dollars per-ton for the glass.
 
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bartender

Contributing Member
I’ve read that plastic can be converted back to fuel in a special made reactor. In other words, it can be melted down and turned back into gas, diesel, etc. even if this process is not super efficient, it would help with gas pricing and plastic pollution. Could probably run the reactor off of the production of fuel.
But this might make sense, so, not even considered. Just my $.02
 

Melodi

Disaster Cat
Sadly, unlike Climate Change, which happens if humans are here or not, the microplastics problem is caused by humans and will need to be solved by them. That can't happen overnight, and if recycling isn't working, it may be time to look for new and improved materials to keep our stuff in and make things out of. In the meantime, we are doing our best to try to find ways that things can be reused or at least kept out of the food chain.

It was wrong to throw this mess onto the third world and ignore it, just as it is wrong to pretend if everyone sorted their trash into 12 different buckets, it would all be fine. But this stuff is getting into the water, the soil, animals, and humans and may be affecting things like sperm counts and hormones (for real, this isn't pretending. Let's be scared of the sun stuff).

Things like this are one reason I was worried about the "Boy Cries Wolf - Pay Your Carbon Tax" nonsense was that when a real problem came along the road, people either wouldn't believe it or choose to ignore it. Now we have such a real problem, but the response is exactly as I feared. Instead of seeing the problem for what it is, people believe it is another attempt to end the modern way of life and get rid of fossil fuels, and it could indeed be used for that propaganda. That doesn't mean it isn't a real and rather pressing issue.

I'm a lot more worried about microplastic poisoning the plankton in the ocean and destroying human fertility in a few generations than I am about humans learning to adapt to a world that gets warmer or colder. We've done the latter before and many times.
 

hiwall

Has No Life - Lives on TB
Way too many different kinds of plastic, different colors of plastic, plus most is also contaminated with debris.
One of our kids were paying extra for their plastic trash "recycling". But found out the trash company was just dumping all the plastic in the local landfill. Supposedly they kept track of the locations of the plastic trash so it could be dug up and recycled at some point in the future.
Often "recycled" plastic is shipped to third-world countries for disposal.
 

subnet

Boot
what's wrong with using glass, stoneware, paper, or metal for food storage and the like, I mean it's not like it didn't work for thousands of years!
How much of a modern vehicle is plastics?
How many modern household goods are mainly plastics?

Could it be cut down percentage wise, sure ..but im not down to pay double or more for a device or vehicle, imagine an airbag cover made of metal or glass.. then again..hmm
Lol
 

Melodi

Disaster Cat
It went way beyond pretend for millions that made it into the near equivalent of a works based religion.
Oh, I agree; I just used that example because that insanity was talked about in the UK. Fortunately, sanity returned. But there have been many YouTube videos of trash companies taking five or six bins and tossing them all into one bin in the truck. There isn't any market for this stuff anymore, and the trash companies know it.

Instead of a massive game of "Let's Pretend," put some money into serious research for workable uses and replacements for this stuff. If we don't, well, I don't know what will happen, but the evidence (with real-life examples in nature and doctors' labs already) is that it won't be good and could be catastrophic.

We also can not pretend that by forcing people to live in 15-minute cities and eat Z bugs, this problem will be solved either. This situation may also be where the so-called free market won't work at first. The current status quo works just fine for the bit petrochemical, pharmaceutical, and plastic companies just the way it is. They have the monopoly and they have the money.

"Green Energy" doesn't help either because wind farms and solar panels are made from this stuff, and with current technology, there is no way to recycle it anyway. It becomes another source of microplastics to be found in your gut, brain, heart, and everything you eat.

Like medicine during and for a couple of decades after the Second World War, this might need to become a "national security" issue (and medicines, too) with some taxpayer money going into public research but with a string attached so we don't get multinationals using breakthroughs with public money to fleece the public via price gouging as is happening with insulin and some antibiotics.

That doesn't mean they don't let corporations make money; it means they have to pay back the taxpayer when public research is used. But that's another thread.
 

Melodi

Disaster Cat
How much of a modern vehicle is plastics?
How many modern household goods are mainly plastics?

Could it be cut down percentage wise, sure ..but im not down to pay double or more for a device or vehicle, imagine an airbag cover made of metal or glass.. then again..hmm
Lol
There may be other solutions than simply back to the future. Especially as it is looking more and more like it won't matter anymore if the situation gets a lot worse. I am not saying that it will, but it sure isn't looking good either. In fact, the more they investigate this issue, which wasn't happening for a long time because of the pressure to not upset the apple cart, the more dangerous the situation looks.

On the other hand, there have been discoveries (some of them by young people) of various microbes and bacteria that may eat this stuff. If it is PROPERLY tested to make sure it doesn't make the situation worse, that could be one of a number of solutions that come forward. Not doing anything, is probably not a good idea. I read an article today (sorry no link) that they found this stuff had seeped down into layers from the 1700s. Which means it leaks into the soil and stays there. This was found by archeologists hoping they could use it in dating, but they can't because the stuff sinks down into older geological strata.
 

Bubble Head

Has No Life - Lives on TB
We have three outdoor lounge chairs made from recycled plastic. They are very comfortable and require no maintenance. Great product but I am sure it took a lot of energy to recycle them. Not efficient in that department. But it is an out right lie that plastic can't be recycled.
 

packyderms_wife

Neither here nor there.
How much of a modern vehicle is plastics?
How many modern household goods are mainly plastics?

Could it be cut down percentage wise, sure ..but im not down to pay double or more for a device or vehicle, imagine an airbag cover made of metal or glass.. then again..hmm
Lol

:rolleyes:

Clearly you are not an INTJ.
 

packyderms_wife

Neither here nor there.
We have three outdoor lounge chairs made from recycled plastic. They are very comfortable and require no maintenance. Great product but I am sure it took a lot of energy to recycle them. Not efficient in that department. But it is an out right lie that plastic can't be recycled.

Before our city went to natural gas fired power plants it was coal that was being burned. When they were burning coal all of the plastics and glass got burnt at the power plant. Now we're supposed to pull plastics and glass, and put them in the appropriate free dumpsters around the city. Reason? The temps in the new and improved power plants do not get hot enough to completely melt plastics or glass and it gums up the internal workings at the plant.

I'm not sure how plastic is "recycled" to make products, but there are a LOT of products that we purchase that do not need to come in plastic containers.
 

Macgyver

Has No Life - Lives on TB
I’ve read that plastic can be converted back to fuel in a special made reactor. In other words, it can be melted down and turned back into gas, diesel, etc. even if this process is not super efficient, it would help with gas pricing and plastic pollution. Could probably run the reactor off of the production of fuel.
But this might make sense, so, not even considered. Just my $.02
I've looked into that.
Thermal depolymerization. You can produce a diesel like fuel.
But it's not all plastics.
 

dioptase

Veteran Member
As to using glass, ceramic, stoneware, metal... One argument against using those materials is shipping costs. Plastic weighs a lot less than those other materials.

Don't look at me like that. I'm in favor of reducing plastics manufacture, and making it for things only where there truly are no good substitutes, such as medical use, research, and so on.

But things like plastic bags and plastic bottles and such... Not so much in favor of (though I confess that we do buy bottled water, mostly because our tap water tastes so awful). But then there goes the whole take-out aspect of the food industry. I guess one could substitute plastic/cardboard for that, but there's only so many trees, so much paper, etc., and now we get into paper recycling - which, while I am in favor of it, how is *that* industry doing?

Certainly there are arguments both for and against plastics, but let's not ban everything plastic, because there *are* legitimate needs for it.
 

LightEcho

Has No Life - Lives on TB
Two of my concerns about plastics are the micro-plastic health hazards and the hormone mimicking chemicals in plastics. Does anyone think the sexual dysphoria & confusion is caused just by social issues? There are more factors contributing to our impending genocide. Humanity is being waxed to bring an end to this era. We are not alone.
 

packyderms_wife

Neither here nor there.
Certainly there are arguments both for and against plastics, but let's not ban everything plastic, because there *are* legitimate needs for it.

I'm not calling for the ban of plastics. However, as LightEcho said there are hormone mimicking chemicals and I for one believe that baby foods should be sold in glass jars NOT plastic jars and/or pouches! IN addition to all of the other toxins we inject into our children, how much is plastic covered foods contributing to the rise of autism, etc.?

I'm just saying there needs to be moderation in everything.

I go to the grocery store and my fruit and veggies are encased in plastic, my meat, it's encased in plastic, prepared foods, encased in plastic.
 

Dobbin

Faithful Steed
what's wrong with using glass, stoneware, paper, or metal for food storage and the like, I mean it's not like it didn't work for thousands of years!
Cost more to collect, store, clean, re-package than to generate new?

Owner has commented on the "milk-man." Yunno, that guy from his past who drives a white refrigerated truck and leaves a fresh bottle on the back step for your use every morning - and takes away the previous day's empty?

Create a plastic jug and sell it at the grocery store. Use it and collect the empty along with the rest of the trash. Owner says milk jugs are like the BEST fuel for a trash burning powerplant. It burns nearly smoke-free in the furnace.

I mean you can burn your fossil fuel as raw oil - or you can burn it in the configuration of a bottle - is there a difference?

Dobbin
 

bw

Fringe Ranger
We have three outdoor lounge chairs made from recycled plastic. They are very comfortable and require no maintenance. Great product but I am sure it took a lot of energy to recycle them. Not efficient in that department. But it is an out right lie that plastic can't be recycled.
Watch the Pakistanis on youtube. Those folks don't waste anything.
 

Safetydude

Senior Member
From my experience, PVC is a real first class PITA to get rid of. It's used in so much clear plastic consumer packaging like those NASTY blister and heat-sealed clam shell consumer packages that you can't open without risking life-threating bleeds from opening the darn things up with or without tools and sharp implements! No economical recycle channels for PVC and can't burn for energy except in very high temperature, long dwell time incinerators. I used to put as much into waste to energy conversion where I didn't have a viable channel for recycle. All my consumer health care OTC meds went for incineration at a waste to energy facility. I was not going to landfill pharmacological active ingredients even though I could legally do it in special waste landfills. In short, some plastics are just bad news to get rid of. Teflon, don't know what to do with that especially in light of all the PFOA/PFAS issues and fluorinated compounds. HDPE, PP as well as PET are recyclable and have a post-secondary feedstock avenues for things like polyester fleece from PET, car bumpstops, lawn furniture, etc. from HDPE, etc.
 
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subnet

Boot
Two of my concerns about plastics are the micro-plastic health hazards and the hormone mimicking chemicals in plastics. Does anyone think the sexual dysphoria & confusion is caused just by social issues? There are more factors contributing to our impending genocide. Humanity is being waxed to bring an end to this era. We are not alone.
My guess is it can be contributed to all the hormones and meds in our water supply before the plastics but im sure they dont help the matter.
 

Griz3752

Retired, practising Curmudgeon
Before our city went to natural gas fired power plants it was coal that was being burned. When they were burning coal all of the plastics and glass got burnt at the power plant. Now we're supposed to pull plastics and glass, and put them in the appropriate free dumpsters around the city. Reason? The temps in the new and improved power plants do not get hot enough to completely melt plastics or glass and it gums up the internal workings at the plant.

I'm not sure how plastic is "recycled" to make products, but there are a LOT of products that we purchase that do not need to come in plastic containers.
I've heard there almost as many recycling processes as there are types of plastic. Apparently there a couple which can't be recycled but I'm pretty sure that relates to the costs and the potential value being too low.
Those are only guesses because I've zero experience in recycling other than straightening nails and casting bullets/reloading.

As to plastic packaging (usually of low value items) which requires at least a box cutter to open- -ERTtghjnmk,567890XZDFRTY67890-*(##) CRAP!!!
 

West

Senior
Cost more to collect, store, clean, re-package than to generate new?

Owner has commented on the "milk-man." Yunno, that guy from his past who drives a white refrigerated truck and leaves a fresh bottle on the back step for your use every morning - and takes away the previous day's empty?

Create a plastic jug and sell it at the grocery store. Use it and collect the empty along with the rest of the trash. Owner says milk jugs are like the BEST fuel for a trash burning powerplant. It burns nearly smoke-free in the furnace.

I mean you can burn your fossil fuel as raw oil - or you can burn it in the configuration of a bottle - is there a difference?

Dobbin
I'll second the burning of plastics. They/most burn great once the incinerator is at maximum burn. Huge potential to run a PowerPoint converting heat energy to electricity.

But it's obviously not epa approved. I know it burns super hot in our incinerator.
 

Elza

Veteran Member
what's wrong with using glass, stoneware, paper, or metal for food storage and the like, I mean it's not like it didn't work for thousands of years!

I'm not sure how plastic is "recycled" to make products, but there are a LOT of products that we purchase that do not need to come in plastic containers.

Many of the throw-away items we get today used to be packaged in glass. However, the food manufacturing world HATES glass with a passion. Any time a container breaks (and it happens with painful regularity) the line has to be shut down and VERY scrupulously cleaned. Lost time and production ads up in a hurry. Plastic doesn't break and cause such problems.
 

kyrsyan

Has No Life - Lives on TB
I'm honestly not against banning plastics. There were good things in use before plastic, that didn't have the issues that plastic has.

Plastic was given a GRAS (generally recognized as safe) standing almost half a century ago, when it was rarely used in items. Nowadays, that standing hasn't been challenged despite the discovery of many ways it is not safe in. And the use of plastic has exploded. There is such a thing as too much of something. Plastic is now used in every industry.

In my household, plastic use is reduced as much as possible. It cannot be completely avoided but it can be reduced. So that's what I do. It is also one of the reasons why I can things on my own. And when I can purchase items in glass/metal/ceramic vs plastic, plastic loses. I can reuse glass at home for a variety of things. And glass can be recycled in quite a few useful ways. Heck, even the thrift stores around here will sell glass bottles and jars if they come in with the lids.
 

Thinwater

Firearms Manufacturer
what's wrong with using glass, stoneware, paper, or metal for food storage and the like, I mean it's not like it didn't work for thousands of years!
I like the above for food. No argument.

For TV sets, computers, car parts, eyeglass frames, cell phone cases, cleaning chemical bottles, laundry baskets, synthetic fibers for most clothing, carpet, vinyl siding, fans, IV bags, single use syringes, backpacks, shoes, tool bags, tackle boxes, power tools, hand tools, many gun parts, and so on. ..I like plastic.
 

33dInd

Veteran Member
I toured a recycling center about ten years ago
I surprised me the different types of plastic that were pulled out of the stream
And
Glass
The only glass the recycler wanted was clear glass. Any colored glass was separated for standard disposable
That’s when I came to the conclusion that recycling was a scam
Sure they use some of it but most just goes to the landfill
 

kyrsyan

Has No Life - Lives on TB
I toured a recycling center about ten years ago
I surprised me the different types of plastic that were pulled out of the stream
And
Glass
The only glass the recycler wanted was clear glass. Any colored glass was separated for standard disposable
That’s when I came to the conclusion that recycling was a scam
Sure they use some of it but most just goes to the landfill
There have been random places that invested in the equipment to turn glass into glass pebbles for walkways. I would honestly buy that if any of our local places did that.
 
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