ECON Perhaps Greece should follow Iceland's example....jail the bankers!!

ShadowMan

Designated Grumpy Old Fart
What about Iceland?
Perhaps Greece should follow Iceland's example....jail the bankers!!

Iceland's economy recovered after it imprisoned bankers and let banks go bust - instead of bailing them out.

The country has imposed the tax to prevent it hemorrhaging money as it loosens bank laws imposed six years ago, when Iceland made the shocking decision to let its banks go bust.

Iceland also allowed bankers to be prosecuted as criminals – in contrast to the US and Europe, where banks were fined, but chief executives escaped punishment.

The chief executive, chairman, Luxembourg ceo and second largest shareholder of Kaupthing, an Icelandic bank that collapsed, were sentenced in February to between four and five years in prison for market manipulation.
Strange how you don't hear a nit about how Iceland handled it's foreign imposed debt, economic collapse and is bailing itself out.....after going after the Politicians and Bankers that caused the problem in the first place. IMAGINE THAT!?!?!? Bankers and Politicians being hunted down, prosecuted and then sent to jail. Now that sounds like a plan to me!

After all, why should the people that got these countries into trouble in the first place get a free ride? Shouldn't they be held accountable for their actions? We need to follow the money on this kind of garbage. Someone, somewhere is getting rich off of all of these shenanigans while the common folks are losing their shirts.
 

undead

Veteran Member
I think Greece's beef is with the creditors, not its own bankers.

Not exactly sure how Greece is going to jail any of its creditors.
 

Dozdoats

On TB every waking moment
And who are Greece's creditors, if not foreign banksters?

Repudiation was the first step.

Prosecuting the banksters could be next. It would be ... interesting :D
 

TerryK

TB Fanatic
Greeks problems were caused by Greek politicians and Greek bankers, not the EU.
Any country that gives up it's own currency, and the right to inflate the hell out of it, for a currency over which they have no control, is a fool

Greeks problem is not the EU, it is Greece.
Greece behaved like a spoiled nephew who's uncle was a mafia loan shark.
They took all those nice mafia loans to live beyond their means, life sucks when it's time to pay the money back. Especially if the mafia is your lender.

If they would have remained on the Drachma they would have just continued their normal boom and bust and stiff their creditors cycles of the last 200 years. Their people would have been poor, but Greece has always been poor for the last several hundred years.

I've been to Greece before the EU was a gleam in anyones eye, and afterwords too. When they joined the EU they went crazy like a trailer park redneck who just won the lottery.
 

Dozdoats

On TB every waking moment
When they joined the EU they went crazy like a trailer park redneck who just won the lottery.

But the EU bears NO responsibility for cooperating with this at all... as if this were a financial version of "Let's you and him fight."

The banksters went into it to make money. And all debts are always paid - if not by the borrower, THEN BY THE LENDER.

And the Greek taxpayers have balked at having the debt shuffled off on them. So here we are...
 

undead

Veteran Member
And who are Greece's creditors, if not foreign banksters?

Repudiation was the first step.

Prosecuting the banksters could be next. It would be ... interesting :D

First, you cannot prosecute a slogan (e.g., "banksters"), there has to be a name. Second, if there were real names applied to these creditor "banksters" then I don't think they'd be making any visits to Greece to run the risk of some sort of trumped-up arrest anyway.
 

Publius

TB Fanatic
I think it will also lead to arresting not just bankers, but a small number of elected and other very wealthy politically connected Greek citizens.
That would bring the problem to a halt.
 

ShadowMan

Designated Grumpy Old Fart
Iceland actually went after the bankers and politicians that fled their country trying to run away after things fell apart and the people rose up against them. They sent out several "Dog the Bounty Hunter(s)" and dragged them back to face justice in Iceland. So it can be done. What would be awesome is if you could somehow indite the money cartel members and drag them kicking and screaming into the light of day....then draw and quarter them as they deserve.

What is amazing is how little of the follow up to the Iceland economic crash the media has covered. Virtually NOTHING!! Probably because it would become a blueprint to other countries on how to deal with international bankers. While I do understand the purpose of a global market economy....to prevent a recurrence of another WWII by intertwining everyone's economic well-being with everyone else and making every country on this planet interdependent on everyone else, there is simply too much room for unethical behavior and taking advantage of poorer countries. I sometimes wonder if a major part of the plan is to make everyone in the working class a wage slave to the ultra uber wealthy. Even a well paid wage slave is still a slave.
 

Yogizorch

Has No Life - Lives on TB
New book reveals how Greeks cheated THEMSELVES into ruin

Greece in teetering on the brink of ruin - and it is hard not to feel sympathy for the pensioners crying in the street and the mothers facing empty supermarket shelves.

Yet those reading a new book may find themselves feeling a little less compassionate towards the Greeks. It reveals an eye-popping catalogue of benefits scams and tax avoidance schemes that have robbed the public purse.

James Angelos' The Full Catastrophe: Travels among the New Greek Ruins lays bare the corruption which filtered through all levels of society - from the islanders who pretended to be blind, to the families who forgot to register their parents' death and the doctors who 'earn' just €12,000 a year - yet live in Athens' most exclusive neighbourhood.
Distress: An elderly man cries outside a bank in northern Greece this morning, after queuing to take out his pension this morning - which has been reduced to 120 euros this week. Some claim Greece is going to run out of cash within days if it does not accept the bailout offered to the country.

It was the rumours of an 'island of the blind' which first bought Angelos, a journalist, to Greece in 2011.

He had heard that on Zakynthos, something like two per cent of the population were registered blind.

All was not quite how it seemed, however, and it transpired that 61 of the 680 'blind' residents were quite happily driving around the island.

In fact, an astonishing 498 of those 680 were not blind at all - or even partially sighted.

But being 'blind' had its advantages - in particular, the €724 paid in benefits once every two months, and a reduction in utility bills.

It was a scam which could be traced back to one ophthalmologist and one official, which was estimated to have cost the country €9 million.

And, as Angelos discovered, it was only the tip of the iceberg.

How big is the problem of disability benefits fraud, Angelos asked the then-deputy health minister Markos Bolaris.

'Very big,' came the accurate, but short, reply.

Indeed, when those claiming disabilities were asked to present themselves at government offices so records could be updated, 36,000 failed to do so.

That translated to an immediate saving for the government of €100m a year.

Widespread: When the Greek government took a closer look at those who were claiming disability benefit, they realised as many as 36,000 were claiming the handout, despite not being entitled

But the fraud was certainly not confined to just disability benefits.

When the government chose to take a closer look at who they were paying pensions to, they found a slightly suspicious 8,500 pensioners had surpassed the milestone age of 100.

An even closer look revealed, 40,000 pension claims were fraudulent. It seems people were forgetting to register their loved ones' deaths.

It's not that these scams were not known about before, of course.

A Daily Mail investigation in 2011 revealed the subway system was essentially free for the five million residents of Athens - because, with no barriers, it relied on an honesty system which few were honest enough to use.

It described street after street of opulent mansions and villas, surrounded by high walls and with their own pools, which, on paper, were the homes of virtual paupers.

They were all allowed to declare their own income for tax purposes - and officially, they were only earning €12,000 - or a paltry £8,500 - a year, below the tax threshold.

Apparently, only 5,000 people admitted to earning more than £90,000 a year - prompting one economist to describe Greece as a ‘poor country full of rich people’.

The lengths these doctors, lawyers and businessmen would go to to hide their wealth from the government was, it has to be said, impressive.

According to official records, just over 300 homes in Athens' most exclusive neighbourhood had swimming pools, and had paid the resulting tax for such a luxury.

But when the government decided to have a look on Google Earth, it became clear these residents hadn't been totally honest.

The real figure for swimming pools in the area is believed to be closer to 20,000.

But instead of coming clean, there was a boom in sales of camouflage tarpaulins to conceal their existence from the tax inspectors flying over the gardens.

And then there are the tales which seem to be more down to incompetence, rather than actual fraud.

In particular, there is the tale of treasury employee Savvas Saltouridis, who used an Uzi submachine gun to murder the mayor of his Greek mountain town in 2009, who remained on the municipal payroll for years afterwards - even though he was languishing in jail.

He was taking advantage of the complex disciplinary system

Angelos, then working for the Wall Street Journal, was told by retired clerk Apostolos Tsiakiris, who took over as mayor after the killing: 'You can't be a murderer and keep getting paid.

'That doesn't happen in any other government.'

But what do when so many are cheating the system? It is estimated tax evasion alone might be costing the country as much as €20billion a year in lost revenue, while years of benefit fraud will certainly have added up.

But when Angelos suggested punishing those who tried to play the system, he was given a straight forward - if depressing - answer.

'If you start putting people in jail, maybe you'll have to put half of Greece in jail,' an official said.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...eveals-Greeks-cheated-ruin.html#ixzz3f8iosiY4
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
 

Richard

TB Fanatic
So if you lend money you're a bankster.

All money has been lent into existence for the past 300 years by some form of credit institution including every type of lender in every country under any national currency.

Think of a different system.
 

Dozdoats

On TB every waking moment
All money has been lent into existence for the past 300 years by some form of credit institution including every type of lender in every country under any national currency.

Not so. The US went off the gold standard for its citizens in 1933.

And off the silver standard in 1964. Gold and silver were minted by the US Treasury and circulated as money, money not loaned into existence.

The international exchange of gold for FRN$ ended in 1971.

That was the USA - how about Great Britain?

The gold specie standard ended in the United Kingdom and the rest of the British Empire at the outbreak of World War I. Treasury notes replaced the circulation of gold sovereigns and gold half sovereigns. Legally, the gold specie standard was not repealed. The end of the gold standard was successfully effected by the Bank of England through appeals to patriotism urging citizens not to redeem paper money for gold specie. It was only in 1925, when Britain returned to the gold standard in conjunction with Australia and South Africa that the gold specie standard was officially ended. -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_standard
 

ShadowMan

Designated Grumpy Old Fart
Greeks cheated THEMSELVES into ruin

If this is true, and I have no doubt that it most probably is, how could you possibly fix such a broken system.

Then you start to wonder just how much of the welfare and "gimedat" fraud is going on in this country? I wonder how much it's costing the taxpayers here in the US to pay for "retired" congress critter. I don't know of any job that you serve ONE TERM and get full retirement bennies for the rest of you life! :eleph:
 

iceblue

Senior Member
And who are Greece's creditors, if not foreign banksters?

Repudiation was the first step.

Prosecuting the banksters could be next. It would be ... interesting :D

I asked myself the question, 'where did Greece's bailout money disappear to'?
From an article: 29/07/2013


Three years after international bailouts began to keep Greece’s economy from imploding, the government has spent a first rescue package of $152 billion and is working its way through a second of $173 billion but the country’s debt is still 160 percent of Gross Domestic Product and much of the money has gone not to social services but investors.
See more at: http://greece.greekreporter.com/2013/07/29/where-did-greeces-bailout-money-go/#sthash.QJTEupZI.dpuf

Reports in the Greek media highlighted that about half the 209 billion euros ($277.5 billion) Greece has received since the start of the bailout in May 2010 has been used to cover interest and debt maturities. Naftemporiki newspaper reported that 60 billion euros ($79.66 billion) was spent on debt maturities between 2010 and this year, while 40 billion euros ($53.1 billion) went towards covering interest.

As the Eurozone and the International Monetary Fund are expected to release another 5.8 billion euros ($7.7 billion) for Greece this week but with more than 2 billion euros ($2.6 billion) due to return to the country’s lenders in August, several Greek reports have noted that most of the savior money has gone to pay the back the investors and interest, bringing them big profits.
Greece is expecting to receive 4 billion euros ($5.31 billion) from the Eurozone on July 29, with the IMF’s executive board also meeting the same day to decide on the disbursement of another 1.8 billion euros ($2.39 billion). After the Euro Working Group approved last week the transfer of 2.5 billion euros ($3.31 billion) in fresh loans from the European Financial Stability Facility (EFSF) and the return of 1.5 billion euros ($1.99 billion) in profits made by Eurozone central banks on Greek bonds, only the approval of national authorities, such as the German Parliament, stands in the way of Greece receiving the 4 billion euros ($5.31 billion).

It seemed that the German Bundestag’s budget committee was ready to give approval to the loan. Germany is the biggest contributor to the bailouts but has insisted on pay cuts, tax hikes and slashed pensions in return, as well as the firing of public workers.
The IMF board is also due to be briefed by the head of its Troika representation in Greece, Poul Thomsen. The fund is not expected to release its tranche until July 31. The funds are due to be paid into a special account at the Bank of Greece but 2.26 billion euros ($3 billion) will be earmarked by the Troika for the payment of existing debt that matures on August 20. The nominal value of bonds held by the ECB is 1.9 billion euros ($2.52 billion,) while interest is 76 million euros ($100.9 million).

Eurozone central banks hold 268 million euros ($355.8 million) worth of Greek paper and another 10.7 million euros ($14.2 million) is due in interest. While the Troika allowed Greece to impose 74 percent losses on private investors, it would not allow restructuring of the bonds it held, and which pay 4 percent interest, paid by Greek taxpayers who’ve had their pay cut, taxes hiked and pensions slashed. Another 48 billion euros ($63.8 billion) of the bailouts has been used to recapitalize Greek banks. Greek bondholders who took part in the 2012 debt restructuring received 35 billion euros ($46.4 billion) in sweeteners. The bond buyback that was held later in the year required another 11 billion euros ($14.6 billion.) Greece needed 15 billion euros ($19.9 billion) to cover various budgetary needs.


So the wash up appears to me to be - They (Eurozone) knew they had to underwrite every bank irrespective of whether they needed it or not, for to have one fail they all would have failed within a matter of days.
 

ShadowMan

Designated Grumpy Old Fart
What a flipping mess!! With the additional insight presented above in several posts, it would seem that this whole mess is one major 50/50 cock up! Greedy and abusive Greeks and greedy and abusive bankers each trying to screw and take advantage of other and both adding insult to injury.

Perhaps the answer is just do a major restart! Have a full blown bankruptcy AND then have all the pensioners and disabled reapply for their supposed benefits through third party bureaucrats....say GERMANS! :eek::rolleyes:

No proof, no money. And for those that were receiving funds before, if they are found not to be valid claims then ban those individuals for the full period that they were receiving funds from government/social services. Since there is no sense in trying to squeeze blood from a turnip, just disallow them from receiving any services for how ever long they cheated the system as a pay back. I'll bet the Greek government would save a ton of cash by just getting rid of the cheaters.

Also....any administrator, bureaucrat, physician, lawyer etc., that is involved in filing false claims should be fired from their position, banned for life from working in that field and any professional licences they hold stripped from them. I seriously doubt any doctors would risk losing their professional status over a false claim do you? And you know politicians and civil servants aren't going to risk getting the boot either.

Easy-peasy!
 

Dozdoats

On TB every waking moment
http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/

U.S. NATIONAL DEBT CLOCK
The Outstanding Public Debt as of 07 Jul 2015 at 03:41:46 PM GMT is:

$ 1 8 , 1 5 9 , 7 2 9 , 8 8 5 , 3 4 0 . 1 9

The estimated population of the United States is 320,931,888
so each citizen's share of this debt is $56,584.37.
========================================================

And that includes EVERY man, woman and child in the nation.

So ... one question to my esteemed fellow TB2K members here in the FUSA ...

Just how much of that $56 grand plus do YOU feel personally responsible for repaying?

Now, think again about those "abusive Greeks" and THEIR financial obligations.

My long standing sig line, so you can see it:

"All the perplexities, confusion and distress in America arises not from deficits in the Constitution or Confederation , nor from want of honor and virtue, so much as downright ignorance of the nature of coin, credit, and circulation." -- John Adams
"The issue which has swept down the centuries and which will have to be fought sooner or later is the people versus the banks." -- Lord Acton
 

Dozdoats

On TB every waking moment
http://www.thedailybell.com/news-analysis/36395/Greek-Debt-Was-a-Two-Way-Deal/

STAFF NEWS & ANALYSIS
Greek Debt Was a Two-Way Deal
By Philippe Gastonne - July 07, 2015

GREEK cities were filled Sunday night with cheering supporters of the victorious Oxi ("No") camp in the referendum on the bail-out terms demanded by the country's European creditors. Many believed they had launched an anti-austerity revolution that would soon sweep the rest of Europe.

In the rest of Europe, such a revolution did not seem to be on the way. Across southern Europe and in France, where demonstrators had rallied in Paris to support the "No" vote, some sympathised with Greece's plea for solidarity; but others wondered why the Greeks feel entitled to special treatment.

Meanwhile, in Germany and northern Europe, the "No" vote seemed only to have reinforced the conviction that Greece should be left to its fate. As Angela Merkel, Germany's chancellor, and François Hollande, France's president, prepared to meet Monday evening to discuss offering Greece one more chance, their countries were split by the divide.
– The Economist, July 6, 2015

News stories about the Greek crisis constantly return to a familiar refrain. The country's politicians and citizens alike borrowed unwisely, spent too freely and now don't want to pay their debts.

This impression isn't wrong, but it misses half the story. Loans are always two-way transactions. One party lends and the other one borrows. Both sides take risks and both sides receive benefits.

Lenders know – or should know – that it is always possible the borrower could default. They are supposed to assess that risk and lend only at interest rates that compensate them for taking it. Portfolio managers who hold many loans should diversify to minimize the risk of unmanageable simultaneous defaults.

This means defaults should not bother well-prepared lenders. They know the risks, factor them into the interest rates they demand, and realize that occasional mistakes are inevitable.

Greece's lenders were not well prepared. They ignored the risks, didn't demand market interest rates, failed to diversify and presumed mistakes were impossible. The fact that Greece had a spendthrift government with several defaults in the past was no secret. Anyone paying attention knew a decade ago about Greece's widespread tax evasion, overly generous pension schemes and already excessive debt load. Yet they kept on lending.

This decision looks very unwise in hindsight. The big banks were the first to realize it and successfully transferred most of their obligations to Eurozone governments. Now those governments are on the hook for someone else's bad lending decision.

Europe would not now be in political crisis if it had left those loans in private hands where they belonged. Germany and its allies surely know this; it probably explains their evident frustration. Taking further debt write-downs might be the wisest business decision, but it is unacceptable for politicians who must face re-election.

Greece clearly went over its head in debt, but it did so with the knowing cooperation of its lenders. For those lenders to demand Greece now bear the full consequence of the joint mistake is intolerable on the Greek side. Hence, we have the current standoff.

No one knows how this will end. There is plenty of pain to go around. If history is any guide, those who created Europe's monetary union will now push for an even tighter union. Greece's "no" vote suggests they will not want to join it.
 
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