Pence to use bible open to 2nd Chron 7:14 for swearing in
- Thread starter frazbo
- Start date
If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.
http://biblehub.com/2_chronicles/7-14.htm
KJV, there are many other translations at the link.
http://biblehub.com/2_chronicles/7-14.htm
KJV, there are many other translations at the link.
Ragnarok
On and On, South of Heaven
2 Chronicles 7:14 (AMP)
14 If My people, who are called by My name, shall humble themselves, pray, seek, crave, and require of necessity My face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven, forgive their sin, and heal their land.
The Amplified Bible is my choice for study, and is as literal as I've seen, while still being readable...
GBY&Y's
Maranatha
OldARcher
Be Well
may all be well
Totally awesome!
SuElPo
Veteran Member
Oh yes!
Terriannie
Has No Life - Lives on TB
This gives my heart a lift to see this frazbo.
If there is one, single thing needed in this country, it is this passage!
I know, it'll be lost amongst a good portion of Americans but just those simple words could be the catalyst to a re-birth of "In God We Trust" for REAL!!!
If there is one, single thing needed in this country, it is this passage!
I know, it'll be lost amongst a good portion of Americans but just those simple words could be the catalyst to a re-birth of "In God We Trust" for REAL!!!
Mongo
Veteran Member
Sigh....
Christians oft do this - cherry pick verses.
To get the CONTEXT read down to verse 19:
7:19 But if ye turn away, and forsake my statutes and my commandments, which I have set before you, and shall go and serve other gods, and worship them;
7:20 Then will I pluck them up by the roots out of my land which I have given them; and this house, which I have sanctified for my name, will I cast out of my sight, and will make it to be a proverb and a byword among all nations.
We have certainly forsaken His statutes and commandments....
Carry on
Christians oft do this - cherry pick verses.
To get the CONTEXT read down to verse 19:
7:19 But if ye turn away, and forsake my statutes and my commandments, which I have set before you, and shall go and serve other gods, and worship them;
7:20 Then will I pluck them up by the roots out of my land which I have given them; and this house, which I have sanctified for my name, will I cast out of my sight, and will make it to be a proverb and a byword among all nations.
We have certainly forsaken His statutes and commandments....
Carry on
ElevenO
Veteran Member
The verse doesn't even apply to us since we (as a nation---or, for that matter, we as individual believers) have never been under the mosaic law, thus we can neither be blessed nor cursed according to it (because believers are under a new covenant instead of an old one). Quite frankly, pence would have been more biblically correct to pick a verse from somewhere in the New Testament like John 3:16 or something similar. However, I won't complain to much over this choice as it shows me that his heart is in the right place and that's good enough for me.
workerbee
* Winter is Coming *
Exactly
LightEcho
Has No Life - Lives on TB
So the 10 commandments don't apply to you anymore? God has changed His mind about sin, eh? You have somewhere noticed a reversal of natural laws? Maybe gravity and consequences for actions have been suspended in your world? Maybe all prophecies of the old testament prophets have been fulfilled in your mind?
You are dead wrong.
Indeed. You are right on in this reproof.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hAd1z-OlWGs
ElevenO
Veteran Member
As for the 10 Commandments, we can (and should) still learn many godly principles from them. However, we (who are believers in Christ) have a NEW COVENANT which is NOT based upon how well or how poorly we follow the old mosaic law. We have never been under that law to begin with so exactly how can we either be blessed or cursed by anything we have never been under in the first place?
Jesus did not come to this earth, live his life, conduct his ministry, teach, heal, cast out demons, get betrayed by one of his disciples, get arrested and tried and then, finally, hung on a cross to die and then get buried only to rise from the dead three days later just to install judaism 2.0 in some vain effort to make us better livers of law.
You want a verse? Well, here ya go:
John 1:17
For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ.
John 8:31-36
31 So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, “If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; 32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.” 33 They answered Him, “We are Abraham’s descendants and have never yet been enslaved to anyone; how is it that You say, ‘You will become free’?”
34 Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. 35 “The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever. 36“So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.
Hebrews 8:7-13
7For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second.
8For finding fault with them, He says,
“BEHOLD, DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD,
WHEN I WILL EFFECT A NEW COVENANT
WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH;
9NOT LIKE THE COVENANT WHICH I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS
ON THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND
TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT;
FOR THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT,
AND I DID NOT CARE FOR THEM, SAYS THE LORD.
10“FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL
AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD:
I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR MINDS,
AND I WILL WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS.
AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD,
AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.
11“AND THEY SHALL NOT TEACH EVERYONE HIS FELLOW CITIZEN,
AND EVERYONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, ‘KNOW THE LORD,’
FOR ALL WILL KNOW ME,
FROM THE LEAST TO THE GREATEST OF THEM.
12“FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR INIQUITIES,
AND I WILL REMEMBER THEIR SINS NO MORE.”
13When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.
Jesus did not come to this earth, live his life, conduct his ministry, teach, heal, cast out demons, get betrayed by one of his disciples, get arrested and tried and then, finally, hung on a cross to die and then get buried only to rise from the dead three days later just to install judaism 2.0 in some vain effort to make us better livers of law.
You want a verse? Well, here ya go:
John 1:17
For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ.
John 8:31-36
31 So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, “If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; 32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.” 33 They answered Him, “We are Abraham’s descendants and have never yet been enslaved to anyone; how is it that You say, ‘You will become free’?”
34 Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. 35 “The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever. 36“So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.
Hebrews 8:7-13
7For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second.
8For finding fault with them, He says,
“BEHOLD, DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD,
WHEN I WILL EFFECT A NEW COVENANT
WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH;
9NOT LIKE THE COVENANT WHICH I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS
ON THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND
TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT;
FOR THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT,
AND I DID NOT CARE FOR THEM, SAYS THE LORD.
10“FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL
AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD:
I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR MINDS,
AND I WILL WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS.
AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD,
AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.
11“AND THEY SHALL NOT TEACH EVERYONE HIS FELLOW CITIZEN,
AND EVERYONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, ‘KNOW THE LORD,’
FOR ALL WILL KNOW ME,
FROM THE LEAST TO THE GREATEST OF THEM.
12“FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR INIQUITIES,
AND I WILL REMEMBER THEIR SINS NO MORE.”
13When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.
As I listen to the rain, rain, rain all night and wake up to see lush green hills and colorful wildflowers everywhere I can see God healing the land. The dry brown ground is coming back to a glorious green.
My heart is hopeful that we can turn this country back to God.
willowlady
Veteran Member
Baloney on so many levels. All of His promises in the Old Testament, all of His Laws, are expressions of how He wants us to live that we might grow and prosper. If it's not applicable to Christians under the new covenant, why then do we include the Old Testament in the Bible? God has not broken his old covenant; He has layered a new covenant onto the old, one in which His laws are written in our hearts and our minds, and one of which the price was paid for by the one perfect human being. We may not be under strict Mosaic law, but we are still under God's laws, which haven't changed.
knowzone
Veteran Member
TheSearcher
Are you sure about that?
It's entirely possible that Pence merely wished to pray publically to God that He help us recover from our decline, and that was the entire context implied.
ElevenO
Veteran Member
It would help this conversation if we did NOT use the words "covenant" and "laws"" interchangeably as they are NOT the same.
No where in my argument above did I say God's laws were obsolete. I was talking about an old covenant versus a new one (and the basis of which each covenant was based upon).
I'll try to be clearer in my explanation.
God's laws are NOT obsolete and, in fact, they are timeless and eternal. Thus the 10 commandments are still important and useful to know and understand. Murder is still murder, adultery is still adultery, theft is still theft and all of these things are wrong. Murder hasn't suddenly become okay because Christ died and rose again. No one is making the argument that it is now okay.
What I am talking about are covenants. We are not under the old covenant, thus we can neither be blessed nor cursed by trying to live by it as it doesn't even exist anymore for the Jews and it NEVER existed for gentiles. It certainly doesn't exist now against the backdrop of the cross and Jesus's resurrection.
Our covenant is strictly based upon Jesus's Christ's finished work on the cross. Period. Thus, the future of our nation does NOT depend on any of us living according to God's perfect standard laid out in the 10 Commandments. Even if we were to live perfectly by them (which is an impossibility, otherwise Jesus would have never had to die on the cross in the first place) God will not somehow be obligated to save and protect us from either personal or national harm. God is not and will not be indebted to us either on a personal nor national level. Our basis for our security rests SOLELY on Jesus's goodness, faithfulness, love, mercy, grace and the basic, fundamental, security in knowing that He will NEVER leave us nor forsake us.
I believe God will save this country because God is love and because He is good and is faithful to His people. He will save us in spite of ourselves----not because we somehow earned it through one form of work or another. Pray all you want. Read as many bible verses as you care to read. Work and attend church as often as you choose. None of these things are bad but none of them will secure either your safety or the safety of this nation one iota, either. God's protection, if it comes, will be STRICTLY due to His goodness and faithfulness alone. It won't come because we somehow earned it.
If people want to work for their salvation and God's mercy then what they are basically saying is that Jesus didn't finish the work and that he somehow left something undone or incomplete and, thus, we have to work to make up for whatever he failed to finish and complete. We are basically calling Jesus a liar at that point because He Himself said "it is finished".
Either we are going to live according to the new covenant or we won't. There's no middle ground here.
ElevenO
Veteran Member
LightEcho
Has No Life - Lives on TB
No, these are not principles. These are commandments. Not just to Moses or the wanderers in the desert. These were commandments to all of mankind. We, who are offspring of Adam & Eve, are recipients of a nature that has eaten from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. We already know good and evil but something happens to us. Normalcy bias. We become comfortable with evil and delusional as we justify evil as good. Surely you have seen people supplant good for evil and evil for good. It is prevalent all around us as people shun the commandments of God. God gave us these as a firm boundary so that we would know how to live properly without quibbling our way into sin.
Tell me which of these you have decided not to follow:
You shall have no other gods before Me.
You shall not make idols.
You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.
Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Honor your father and your mother.
You shall not murder.
You shall not commit adultery.
You shall not steal.
You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
You shall not covet.
His mission was to fulfill the law and pay the ransom that we could not afford. But you think it is fine to keep on sinning.
Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
I will accept your concept if you show me that you do not sin. Show me that you are not inhabiting a flesh of sin. Show me that you are above the law.
Freedom in Messiah is not freedom from God and His word, but freedom to live with God and in agreement with His word.
To preach that all must become slaves to the law before they can be saved is as worthless as preaching that all are free outside of the law. We are made free by grace through the law just as we are made pure by grace through the fires of refinement. We are made alive in the Spirit but the sin-tainted flesh must still die.
How can we be saved if there is no law? It is written:
Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
And how is it that the Father draws men to the Son?
Joh 16:7 But I tell you the truth, it is advantageous for you that I should go; for if I do not go away, the Comforter will not come to you. But if I go, I will send Him to you.
Joh 16:8 And having come, that One will convict the world concerning sin, and concerning righteousness, and concerning judgment.
We see that His Spirit convicts us of our failings against the LAW.
2Ti 4:2 preach the Word, be urgent in season, out of season, convict, warn, encourage with all long-suffering and teaching.
2Ti 4:3 For a time will be when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own lusts, they will heap up to themselves teachers tickling the ear;
2Ti 4:4 and they will turn away the ear from the truth and will be turned aside to myths.
And as we are led by the Spirit we teach and convict, so those violating the law will see their lack. The WORD in those days did not include any "new testament".
The law is obsolete in terms of being effective to save sinners. Sinners cannot live according to the law perfectly. But the law does show us our lack unless we totally disregard it. If you don't know we lack, how would we know to fill the need?
winodog
The Bible is a flat earth book
Attachments
ElevenO
Veteran Member
I called them commandments and you even quoted me saying that. However, principles like love, charity, forgiveness (and others) can be learned by studying them.
I follow all of them as best as I can but, at the end of the day, even my best isn't good enough. Thus, I need my savior as I'm just not good enough to obey Him on my own strength.
In fact, He did fulfill the law and, in doing so, He became the perfect sacrifice to be killed on the cross because satan could use no law against Him because he had not failed to uphold ANY of it either in word, thought, motive or deed. Jesus fulfilled the law perfectly----thus he was the perfect sacrifice for us.
No where in any of my arguments have I justified anyone to live in sin or to abuse God's grace in any way.
As for me being a sinner....yeah, I am. That's why I need Jesus. He's my one and ONLY mediator as I cannot justify myself before God based on my own works. Thus, I need Christ. I need the new covenant.
At what point in my argument did I say we are free to live separate from God and His word? Stop taking my arguments out of context and stuffing words which I never said into my mouth.
What you basically just argued for is that, somehow, through you valiant efforts to live by the law (which is IMPOSSIBLE to do successfully absent a relationship with Christ) you will attain God's help, salvation and righteousness. If that is even possible (and it isn't) then why did Jesus have to die in the first place?
No matter how much you do or how hard you try you will NOT be able to live perfectly according to God's standards and if you fail at keeping one law then, by default, you will fail at keeping all of them. Thus, you need a savior and a new covenant just as much as I do. His name is Jesus---not moses.
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
We are saved the same way all men have been saved since Jesus's death and resurrection----by faith in Christ and Christ alone. Period.
His Spirit convicts us in our failings against the law---thus we need a savior to save us. And we don't just need any old savior but we can only use one who has fulfilled ALL of the law in their words, deeds, thoughts and motives. THAT savior is, and can only be, Jesus and Jesus alone.
THAT IS sound doctrine.
No one can come to the father but by Him. No one will be able to get to the father by moses, mohammad, their parents, their preacher, their sunday school teacher, their best friends on the internet, their spouse, their kids or by you or me. Only Jesus can get people to the Father. Jesus and Jesus alone.
Yes, the law does show us our lack and that is why I point people to Jesus and the new covenant which our relationship is now based upon.
Starrkopf
Veteran Member
Has anyone even taken a look around at the state of the world? If God gave a flip at all he would have done something by now. It's going to take a lot more than someone grand standing and being pious to get us out of the mess that we are in. God is out to lunch and we need to actually solve our own problems instead of simply praying and expecting God to magically turn things around.
It's good to have a spiritual life but if you can't put things into practice in the physical world then it's pretty much a waste of time. How hard has the evangelical community prayed for this nation over the last 50 years? Did it do any good? Trump may or may not be divine providence but it will only be what we make of it. If we aren't all engaged politically to keep this nation turning around then all the prayer in the world will be pointless. We have to do the best we can with the opportunities afforded us whether or not they are heaven sent.
I honestly believe that religious navel gazing contributed to how far the state of politics has fallen in this country.
It's good to have a spiritual life but if you can't put things into practice in the physical world then it's pretty much a waste of time. How hard has the evangelical community prayed for this nation over the last 50 years? Did it do any good? Trump may or may not be divine providence but it will only be what we make of it. If we aren't all engaged politically to keep this nation turning around then all the prayer in the world will be pointless. We have to do the best we can with the opportunities afforded us whether or not they are heaven sent.
I honestly believe that religious navel gazing contributed to how far the state of politics has fallen in this country.
Caplock50
I am the Winter Warrior
We will have Trump as our President for 8 years. He will(is) going in whispering God's name, but, once in, will be 'anointed by God' and will start to shout God's name.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pp7OBPYwLWs
Remember that '70 nation meeting' to divide Israel that just happened? Kim Clement 'predicted' it back in 3/25/10. He also said then that it wouldn't happen.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=but52StumbA
Enjoy your viewing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pp7OBPYwLWs
Remember that '70 nation meeting' to divide Israel that just happened? Kim Clement 'predicted' it back in 3/25/10. He also said then that it wouldn't happen.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=but52StumbA
Enjoy your viewing.
ElevenO
Veteran Member
I now believe one of the reasons the so called "evangelical movement" has basically failed in turning this country around is because so many believers are still stuck with an old covenant mindset. They are sincere and genuine in their motives and faith but they still have this thought that basically says "If I don't shape up, and help those around me shape up, then America will fall like Sodom and Gomorrah." Again, they are genuine and sincere----of that I have no doubt. I know because I used to be one of them.
The problem comes when they focus on what they think is required of them to "shape up". They try to (religiously) work harder, read the bible more, pray more, attend church more often, give more, be more and do more. In the end, it ceases to be faith and it becomes ALL about what they do and what they can accomplish. Somehow, even though they were honest, genuine and sincere in their motives and desires, Jesus Himself gets lost in the shuffle and faith practically vanishes from the equation.
I blame ALL of it on the majority of the western church (and ESPECIALLY the America churches) being so caught up in an old covenant mode of thinking. The modern day church is in need of a new reformation but, this time, it shouldn't be about catholics versus protestants but, instead, it needs to be one about grace versus the law. A reformation based on an old covenant versus the new one.
Caplock50
I am the Winter Warrior
Kim Clement also prophesied about a man name 'Donald' and another named 'Clark' on 4/20/2013...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zobE8oyJsP8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zobE8oyJsP8
Wow! I sure agree with this comment! And I expect this will be the year for it!
Sure do hope so anyway.
Flippper
Time Traveler
You have. We all have. I believe that is the gist of 2nd Chron. 7:14, He illustrates that HIS people have stopped seeking His face, become proud, ceased communication with Him and have embraced wicked ways, He implores us to return to Him and He will take us back under His wing.
obama was a wake up call to Christians, and most who understood began to get serious about God again if they had backslidden. I brought this up when obama was selected, and in fact had 2nd Chron. 7:14 as my signature line way back then because I was afraid people were panicking and losing hope. Personally, I suspect Trump will disappoint many here, but I believe he will do some good things for this country, and pray for him to be led by God to do His will regardless of his own.
God and His character and standards are the same yesterday today and forever.......the PRINCIPLES remain true..........as the sun shines and the rain falls on the everyone.....so His principles that are lived by result in the cause and effect results....
This does not change
This does not change
Furthermore, the Apostles repeatedly quoted OT and applied it to the NT believers, within the context for which it pertained to them.....and again, the same is true today, or rather applies today.
TammyinWI
Talk is cheap
It was 2012 when DT trademarked, "Make America Great Again" and many sources have reported that.
Trump Trademark Registration: “Make America Great Again” Campaign Slogan (*fair use)
Donald Trump may be an outsider when it comes to politics, but he is certainly not an outsider when it comes to business. Unquestionably he understands the importance of creating a brand and protecting it. Obviously, that’s why he filed a trademark application in anticipation of a presidential run on the phrase “Make America Great Again”. The USPTO granted Trump a trademark registration for this mark for political action committees service and political fundraising. With this registration in hand, Trump is looking to expand his trademark protection into other classes as well. Indeed, Trump has filed three additional trademark registration applications with the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office.
Although Trump received a trademark registration on his campaign slogan, it was only granted in the two classes mentioned above related to political activities. He initially filed his first trademark application for his campaign slogan back on November 19, 2012 long before he announced he was running for POTUS. How was he able to file for a trademark registration before actually running for president or using the mark? He filed the trademark application under of provision of the U.S. Trademark Act that allows one to apply for registration who intends to use a mark but hasn’t yet used it in commerce within the U.S. After the application is given a Notice of Allowance, a Certificate of Registration will only issue in due course upon submitting evidence and a declaration with the USPTO demonstrating use of the mark in commerce.
Another interesting issue that can be gleaned from the Donald’s trademark filings relates to the fact that two different persons can file for the same mark for different goods or services provided that the goods and services are so unrelated that consumers will not likely assume they come from the same source – so long as there will be no likelihood of confusion between the two. For example, when you hear the brand Delta, do you think of the airline or the faucet manufacturer? Both of these companies have trademark registrations on their brand. It works because they are in sufficiently unrelated industries that no one will mistake one for the other.
Donald Trump has covered himself here by filing multiple trademark applications on “Make America Great Again” in various Classes. Based on his USPTO filings, it appears he wants to protect his brand in as many areas as possible. In an effort to expand his protection, he filed in the classes covering bumper stickers, clothing, social media, and blogs. This expansion comes in the face of two other applications on “Make America Great Again” filed by other individuals most likely looking to capitalize on Trump’s branding. These applications were filed in the last several months covering goods such as lighters for smokers and audio/video recordings and athletic bags.
The Trademark Office will review these applications and will have to make a determination whether there is a likelihood of confusion with Trump’s already registered mark and any prior pending applications. Of course, Donald can always seek to oppose registration of the third-party marks based on common law use of his mark as well. Trump is known for his aggressing business tactics. It will be interesting to how he responds to the third-party applications.
https://www.trademarkaccess.com/tra...ion-make-america-great-again-campaign-slogan/