[OT] Tractor problems, any help?

[CGTech]

So. A while back my tractor just quit in the middle of a job on me. Felt like it ran out of fuel. Much research and stuff later, thought we found the problem.

Spent this last week trying to resolve it....the next part is the email I just sent to some folk, hoping they had a better week than I did!

Anyone here have any ideas that don't cost money?? I use this rig with a bench saw (off the PTO) to cut all my wood (which is ALL our heat here)

Anyone here know anything 'bout tractors? FWIW, it's an IH 384, with a CAV injection pump....

anyways, here's the email.... rant on?

So, looking back last week, we had determined the problem was with the high pressure injection pump not providing the 2400 psi that was required to open the injectors.
Checking things out, Island Fuel Injection was perfectly willing to rebuild/repair the pump for a mere $700.

No big deal. Hey, it's only $700, right? (excuse me while i lean out the window and heave up my lunch...)

Then the neighbor pops by, a mutual aquaintance from church had had the same problem, had rebuilt it himself with a kit. Only cost him $55.

Great. get the kit, (cost me $93, maybe he is special or something). Spend the past 2 and 1/2 days removing the pump, taking it apart, replacing all the seals and o-rings, and putting it back together.

AN ABSOLUTE BLAST WHEN YOU DON'T HAVE THE SLIGHTEST CLUE, NO DIAGRAMS OR SERVICE MANUAL, AND HAVE NO IDEA WHAT THE HELL YOU ARE DOING..................!!!

So. We put the pump back on the tractor. Great. Fine. Hey, it even looks like it belongs there!

So. Use the manual prime to get fuel into the pump (took forever), bled it, then got out the starting fluid, and prepared to start the old girl so we can get the 50 cords of wood we have sitting in the yard cut.

So we crank 'er over.

Hmmmm.

Nothing.

So.

Pull off the line we checked with before, to make sure that we actually DO have the 2400 psi that we need. Hey, we just rebuilt this thing right? Should work just fine, right?

Wrong. Before , we had maybe 2 or 3 psi.

Now, we had nothing. Zilch. Nada. Absolute Zero.

Well, we turned the air blue for a while (myself and Ron from next door...). Checked everything. Nope, looked good, I actually had found a document on the internet the night before that was extremely close to this pump, so as far as we could determine, we had done it correctly.

So. Did some more digging and checking, checked the flow from the lift pump (which pumps from the tank to the injection pump). It pumped fuel..........sort of..............kinda......

So. We chewed this over, and came up with this theory - the lift pump has to provide at least enough pressure to help the injection pump to build up the required 2400 psi, so if the lift pump is fried, maybe that is part of the problem? Hey, this actually made sense.

So. Got on the phone to the local IH dealer. Spoke with a mechanic, he said that pump should shoot fuel 3 to 4 feet. Huh. Well, 1 to 2 inches don't sound good does it? Nope he said, don't sound good at all.

Could it cause this problem we are having? Yep, could definitely contribute to this behaviour.

Great! We actually figured something out that made sense here!!

So. Do you have this little pump in stock?......... uh No. Has to be shipped in from Toronto, be in next week. (got 3 days of holidays left at this point, and lots of wood to cut.)

........unless you want it airshipped...........

So. Had the pump airshipped in, was in at 8 the next morning. Great, went in and picked it up.

Got back, Ron popped over, took the old pump off, started putting the new pump on........

Hmmmm. Something not quite right here......this blasted hydraulic pump for the bucket and 3 point hitch is in the way!!

So. Much muttering, careful work with a screwdriver and hammer later, the new pump is installed. Start priming the system, fuels starts spurting everywhere from the lines we just installed into the new pump..............<sigh>

So. Investigation showed that the old pump still had o-rings, seals, plastic rubbery thingamajigs in the fuel line inlet/outlet location. Did the new pump come with such accessories? Hell no, why would it? You are supposed to magically KNOW that such minor issues will come up with a new pump, the dealer should not have to tell you such minor details should he? Naaaaa.......... So we used the ones off the old pump. Hey, they worked, stopped the leaks.........

So, primed everything, check for 2400 psi at the injector.........

Nothing. Absolute zilch.

Grrrrrrr..................words could not express what we felt at this point...............so we went over to Ron's and started cutting his mountain of logs with chainsaws.....

So. Two hours, and very sore backs later (hey, we're not young anymore!), we stopped. And muttered, and thought, and talked about that stupid pump (hey we did rebuild it right, put right back together the way it came out........didn't we????...with all new seals and o-rings) talked to the friend from church, nope, he was mystified as well, though he thought the problem we were currently haveing might be in the top end...yep, we kinda figured that ourselves.

"ya know, if we put that plate thingamajog that hooks down onto that funny shaft on the wrong side of that wierd bulge, ya think that might stop that wierd clutch thingy that is suppsed to pop out at speed and engage from doin' it's thing?"

"yeah, but how we gonna tell that? besides i'm sure we did it right.....does bug me though....."

"ya, but if that there clutch thingy ain't engaging right, then that means that wierd inpeller thing with all them funny timing marks won't move, right?"

"damn, but how...."

"so , if we pull off that dere side inspection plate, and spin the engine while lookin' inside, we can see if that thing with all the funny numbers on moves....."

"......damm, let's go."

So. we go back over to my place, pop the plate, and spin the engine. Darn. That funny thing wtih the numbers did spin.So THAT wasn't it.

So. We were there again anyways. Popped to cover off the top end of the pump (where all the funny linkage thingys are that we kinda guessed at puttin' back together) and started lookin'.........

"nope, that looks right.....we sure that this goes in here?.....yeah.....wonder if this spring tension is set correctly.?......hmmmm"

I wandered inside to check that document again, hoping something would pop out at me......looked at this page.....that diagram....nothing there....what's thiss......HEY!!!

WE HAVE THAT HOOKED UP BACKWARDS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

SO. TWO SOLID HOURS OF BLUE AIR LATER......we get it hooked up according to the diagram, prime and bleed the whole system, go to check the flow at the injector....

HEY, WE GOT FUEL THERE!!!!!!!!!!!

.........only one problem................it's the same little , bitty squirt we had when this all started.........damn.

So. Where are we now?

Well........

So, looking back last week, we had determined the problem was with the high pressure injection pump not providing the 2400 psi that was required to open the injectors...............

(i am thinking quite fondly right now of my nice shiny sledgehammer out in the barn.....thinking it may deserve some excitement with a red and white pile of rusty iron in my yard.....)

mutter, mutter, mutter................

 

[Swampthing]

Sounds like you're working on a PHD from the School of Hard Knocks.

I feel for you.

Been there,
done that,
got the scars to proveit.

 

[Brutus]

As long as your post was there are still a few details you left us to guess at:

Does the lift pump actually sit IN the fuel or is there an inlet line coming from the fuel tank to the pump? If there is a line coming to the lift pump it might be obstructed in some way.

Also, if there is an inlet line coming to the lift pump is there any sort of strainer or filter on it to strain potential crud out of the fuel? If so the strainer/filter could be collapsed or otherwise blocked and the lift pump is starving for something to pump.

Is the lift pump electric or does it drive off of the engine in some way? If it drives off the engine have you checked to see that it is getting solid contact with whatever means of driving is required - e.g. splines, keyed shaft, offset gears, etc.?

 

[CGTech]

As long as your post was there are still a few details you left us to guess at:

Does the lift pump actually sit IN the fuel or is there an inlet line coming from the fuel tank to the pump? If there is a line coming to the lift pump it might be obstructed in some way.

Also, if there is an inlet line coming to the lift pump is there any sort of strainer or filter on it to strain potential crud out of the fuel? If so the strainer/filter could be collapsed or otherwise blocked and the lift pump is starving for something to pump.

Is the lift pump electric or does it drive off of the engine in some way? If it drives off the engine have you checked to see that it is getting solid contact with whatever means of driving is required - e.g. splines, keyed shaft, offset gears, etc.?

The lift pump bolts to the block, lever driven off the cam. All fuel filters have been replaced (this is a dual filter design, both changed, first thing i tried actually), the new lift pump is putting out tons of fuel. When we had the inlet line to the lift pump disconnected, fuel was pouring out unless we had the line plugged, so it is getting lots of fuel. It is a gravity feed from the tank to the lift pump, no problems there. We also pulled a line off the outlet side of the fuel filter assembly, getting lots of fuel there.

Nope, problem is back to that blasted injection pump. Just not putting out what is required.

One thought here, that you might be able to answer, when we had the pump off the tractor (the injection one), and turned the pump by hand, we could feel the compression cycle, but should we have been able to turn it at all? Given that it is supposed to put out 2400psi? Mind you, main pistion was real tight going back in, so we thought it was ok, but hey, what do we know!

 

[Jazzdad]

You should post this over at Tractor By Net

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/index.php

or, if the tractor is really old, try Yesterday's Tractors,

http://www.ytmag.com/cgi-bin/boards.cgi

Someone should be able to help you at either of these places.

 

[CGTech]

Thanks Jazz, I'll try that!

At the very least, they should get a laugh out of it....!

 

[Handyman]

how are the fule filters, are they flowing fule, is the tank turned on, is there a valve on the tank, (there is one on my diesel tractor), is the fule flowoing out of the tank, out of the filter, YEars ago I had water build up in the fule tank and it finaly flowed over the raised out let and it was a mess on the injector pump, (my pump is a diffrent type than yours), on mine there is a seperate valve under the fule tank to blead off any water that has condensated in the tank,

is the pump timed correctly, is there only one way to put the pump in to the tractor could it be 180 degrees off, are there any kinks in the lines, are the lines clear, of any obstrucion,


is there any way of by passing all the filters and lines and put a small test tank on the injection pump to see if the pump it self is pumping,

there is no place it is sucking air, is there,

 

[SAR01]

these links might offer some help
Good luck:

http://www.yesterdaystractors.com/store/manuals/index.htm

 

[Jerry]

A few stupid questions, because I really don't know if I have even seen an IH 384......

Does it shut off with a pull cable connected to the fuel injector pump, or does it do it with a solenoid off a key ? Have you checked out the shut off device, what ever it is ? If electrically operated, fuses okay ?

Was kind of thinking on your condition that when diesels are shut down they do so by starving for fuel. Maybe look there. Good Luck J.

 

[CGTech]

how are the fule filters, are they flowing fule, is the tank turned on, is there a valve on the tank, (there is one on my diesel tractor), is the fule flowoing out of the tank, out of the filter, YEars ago I had water build up in the fule tank and it finaly flowed over the raised out let and it was a mess on the injector pump, (my pump is a diffrent type than yours), on mine there is a seperate valve under the fule tank to blead off any water that has condensated in the tank,

is the pump timed correctly, is there only one way to put the pump in to the tractor could it be 180 degrees off, are there any kinks in the lines, are the lines clear, of any obstrucion,


is there any way of by passing all the filters and lines and put a small test tank on the injection pump to see if the pump it self is pumping,

there is no place it is sucking air, is there,

handyman, even if the timing was out 180 degrees, we still should get the required flow. So until i get the 2400psi, no point in worrying about the timing i think.

 

[CGTech]

A few stupid questions, because I really don't know if I have even seen an IH 384......

Does it shut off with a pull cable connected to the fuel injector pump, or does it do it with a solenoid off a key ? Have you checked out the shut off device, what ever it is ? If electrically operated, fuses okay ?

Was kind of thinking on your condition that when diesels are shut down they do so by starving for fuel. Maybe look there. Good Luck J.

Actually, this is the first one i have seen as well! It does have a kill switch on the pump, which we have set the same as before. Hell, even trying it without the kill switch installed makes no difference.

 

[Handyman]

is it a IH or a massey fergerson tractor, I can't find a IH 384 but do see reference for a massy 384, and not that it matters but you filters are massey, but if were looking for information on the wrong unit that doesnt help.

 

[Handyman]

THe other sugestion I have is to call the dealers in your area and see if they have an Injection pump test stand , and see what they will charge to mount the pump on the stand and test it off of the tractor,

THe stand will measure the presure of each out let and the volume and in general see if the pump is working in the manor it was designed to work,

they would also test out the shut off system if it is electrical,

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

you either have fule blockage, (AIR or mechincal) DOnt forget the return lines as well.

or you have a mechincal failure of a system running one of the pumps,

or in one of the pumps,

or a failure in the shut down system, (which would be blockage)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

and I think at this time you need to see if it is the injecton pump or not,

and call in some one that has the equiptment can test the unit, or make a more complete test of the compoents,

I read through the trouble shooting guides in my rosa master book and bosh book and they basicly said the same as above,

blockages, water, mechicanl falure, test of the primay and secondary pumps, and the (out of fule),

and it looks like to me it is either something very simple your over looking, like a pugged filter, or bockage in the fule tank over the out let, because if I am reading your post correctly, to the best of your ablity you have redon the injector pump, replaced the primary pump, (and it was not yet giving the required fuel delivery) so my thinking is it is before that point.

sorry I can't be of more help,

 

[Timber]

Are you getting any fuel oil in the motor oil? Why I asked I rebuilt a similar model pump four cylinders on our Case the input shaft had back to back seals and one rowed over inserting in the engine. It's been about five or better years when I tore in to it. Remembering a few problems in the aftermath. From what I've read here you got your pressure, smoke. Pop injector (watch for seal washer) should mist when fired. We have three Massy F diesels on our farm the smaller one three cyc. has two holes in the injector tip . As handyman suggested try timing. You probably have enough fuel flow. I don't remember any two cylinder MF with two glow plugs but the motor sure looks like a old perkins.
Timber

 

[CGTech]

It's a 4 cylinder motor. We are pulling the pump tommorow afternoon, and sending it to the specialist. Going to be $$$, but gotta have it. No question, was in over my head on this one!