GOV/MIL Lawmakers Try to Ban Dishonorable Discharges for Troops Who Refuse Mandatory COVID-19 Vaccines

TFergeson

Non Solum Simul Stare
Lets hope this goes through. A dishonorable from the military is comparable to a Felony in the civilian sector.



Lawmakers Try to Ban Dishonorable Discharges for Troops Who Refuse Mandatory COVID-19 Vaccines

National Guardsman prepares to administer the Moderna COVID-19 vaccine.

Pfc. Shaniah Edwards, Medical Detachment, prepares to administer the Moderna COVID-19 vaccine to soldiers and airmen at the Joint Force Headquarters, February 12, 2021. (U.S. Army National Guard photo by Sgt. Leona C. Hendrickson)
2 Sep 2021

Military.com | By Travis Tritten

House lawmakers have backed legislation prohibiting dishonorable discharges for troops who refuse the COVID-19 vaccine, as the Navy gave its sailors 90 days to get the shot this week and the Army and Air Force were poised Thursday to enforce their own timetables.
Legislation sponsored by Rep. Mark Green, R-Tenn., an Army veteran, requires only honorable discharges for anyone who is separated from the military over refusing to be vaccinated. It was added to the fiscal 2022 defense authorization bill, passed by the House Armed Services Committee on Thursday.


"No American who raises their hand to serve our Nation should be punished for making a highly personal medical decision," Green said in a statement after the committee vote. The U.S. Food and Drug Administration fully approved the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine in August after allowing emergency use beginning in December 2020, saying it is safe and effective for those 16 years old and over.

Read Next: Sailors and Marines Have 90 Days to Get Vaccinated or Face Punishment

The Navy became the first service to enforce a timeframe for vaccinations in a series of memos on Tuesday and Wednesday following the FDA approval and an order by Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin for all troops to be vaccinated. The Army and Air Force are expected to give soldiers and airmen a deadline "very, very soon," Pentagon spokesman John Kirby said during a briefing with reporters Thursday.


But troops who refuse to be inoculated may not necessarily face dishonorable discharge, or even separation, according to Kirby.
The Pentagon has repeatedly stopped short of saying it will boot troops for refusing the shot. Commanders will have a range of options that stop short of punishment under the Uniform Code of Military Justice, Kirby said. The services also will allow religious exemptions to the vaccine.

"The secretary expects that the department leadership will implement these mandatory vaccines with skill but also ... professionalism and compassion," Kirby said. "When an individual declines to take a mandatory vaccine, they will be given an opportunity to talk to both medical providers as well as their own chain of command so that they can fully understand the decision they are making."
The House legislation barring dishonorable discharges now must go to a vote in the full chamber. The House version of the massive, must-pass defense authorization bill also must be reconciled with the Senate version in conference, where controversial measures often are eliminated.

In any case, the bill is unlikely to be signed into law until months after all the military services are enforcing COVID-19 inoculations.
Military.com reported on a Marine corporal who said she was discharged for refusing to wear a mask, possibly the first service member to be pushed out of the military in connection with COVID-19 rules.

According to the Pentagon, roughly 63% of all U.S. forces had received at least one dose or were fully vaccinated against COVID-19 as of Aug. 18.

 

BadMedicine

Would *I* Lie???
a dishonorable discharge is akin to a felony, it prevents you from ever owning guns, voting, etc. You're basically a non-entity in the country you swore your life to protect... that ought to lead to at least a few good men with 'nothing to lose." and by a few I mean, hold on to your f*in hats... gonna be some holes...errr...positions to fill in the upper ranks.
 
a dishonorable discharge is akin to a felony, it prevents you from ever owning guns, voting, etc. You're basically a non-entity in the country you swore your life to protect... that ought to lead to at least a few good men with 'nothing to lose." and by a few I mean, hold on to your f*in hats... gonna be some holes...errr...positions to fill in the upper ranks.
as if laws mean anything anymore.............
 

TFergeson

Non Solum Simul Stare
I thought you had to commit a crime to get a dishonorable discharge?

We will be, at least in their minds. They have quite a few options for those who refuse the vax and 'disobey a direct order'

Article 92 - Failure to obey an order or regulation
Article 90 - Willfully disobeying a superior officer

For those who are commissioned officers:

Article 133 Conduct unbecoming an officer and gentleman

and who knows what else they'll be able to sprinkle in
 
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Ku Commando

Inactive
The U.S. Food and Drug Administration fully approved the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine in August


NOW THAT RIGHT THERE IS A BIG FAT LIE TRAVIS TRITTEN -- [8 years inside the beltway]

Travis-Tritton-1800.jpg

Travis Tritten is the deputy managing editor and Pentagon bureau chief for Military.com. He has 20 years of experience reporting on the military, government and politics in the U.S. and abroad. Since 2014, Tritten has reported from Washington, D.C., spending most of his time at the Pentagon and Capitol Hill. Previously, he was a senior defense reporter for Bloomberg Government, a defense and national security reporter at the Washington Examiner, and a reporter with Stars and Stripes, including seven years as a Japan correspondent.

Email: Travis.Tritten@Military.com
 

artichoke

Greetings from near tropical NYC!
It should in fact be an honorable discharge. You can run into problems if the discharge is "other than honorable".
 

ShadowMan

Designated Grumpy Old Fart
Well all the military JAG officers are going to be seriously busy with all the Courts-Martials they are going to have to have. Can't issue a Dishonorable Discharge without one. This could take YEARS!! I don't think there's enough brig space.
 

TFergeson

Non Solum Simul Stare
Well all the military JAG officers are going to be seriously busy with all the Courts-Martials they are going to have to have. Can't issue a Dishonorable Discharge without one. This could take YEARS!! I don't think there's enough brig space.

I had the same thought, but from what I am seeing everything is going to be expedited. To be honest I wouldn't be surprised if these cases were front loaded just to set an example and further ratchet up pressure. They are being very deliberate and intentional about what they do and how they do it paperwork wise, and it is spelled out in the directives that are flowing from higher. This was released by the Army a few days ago. This is part of a 12 page FRAGO addressing the vax refusals. Counselings, both verbal and written, from every level of the soldiers chain of command. Extra educational materials on the "safety, efficacy, and necessity" of the vax, including videos. Multiple chances to repent and take the vax at every level. They dot all their i's and cross all their t's to make sure its a slam dunk, open shut court martial. And as such they can quickly and easily handle large amounts of individuals. In fact, since the methods of handling vax refusals are identical they may even be able to court martials in groups.

1631845016983.png
 

von Koehler

Has No Life - Lives on TB
No army can win without morale and a sense of cohesion. Discharging even 10 percent would cast serious doubts on the effectiveness and loyalty of the remaining troops.

Combine this with a Joint Chief of Staff willing to give forewarning to a potential enemy, and I doubt the forces will remain intact.
 

ShadowMan

Designated Grumpy Old Fart
Discharging even 10 percent would cast serious doubts on the effectiveness and loyalty of the remaining troops.

That's gonna make for a hellva lot of SERIOUSLY pissed off bunch of veterans!! And a lot of them will be COMBAT veterans.....not a good thing. DD equals Felony conviction, equals no VA benefits, no educational benefits, no jobs, can't vote, homeless with no place to go and seriously pissed at the government....can you say REVOLUTION? They would have nothing to lose.

FWIW....in 2019 there was approximately 1,300,000 active duty military. 10% would be
130,000 dishonorable discharged military personnel!! NOT - A - SMART - MOVE Uncle Sam....not smart at all. A battalion of soldiers is approximately 1,000 to 1,500 troops. Do the math...that is not good.
 

von Koehler

Has No Life - Lives on TB
That's gonna make for a hellva lot of SERIOUSLY pissed off bunch of veterans!! And a lot of them will be COMBAT veterans.....not a good thing. DD equals Felony conviction, equals no VA benefits, no educational benefits, no jobs, can't vote, homeless with no place to go and seriously pissed at the government....can you say REVOLUTION? They would have nothing to lose.

FWIW....in 2019 there was approximately 1,300,000 active duty military. 10% would be
130,000 dishonorable discharged military personnel!! NOT - A - SMART - MOVE Uncle Sam....not smart at all. A battalion of soldiers is approximately 1,000 to 1,500 troops. Do the math...that is not good.

The core of the new Patriot army.
 

TFergeson

Non Solum Simul Stare
I heard on the news they would get a general discharge

Glad I used my GI Bill then

What Each Military Discharge Status Means
  • Honorable: This status applies to service members who exceed the military’s performance and personal conduct standards.
  • General, Under Honorable Conditions: Issued to service members with satisfactory (but not exemplary) performance.
  • General: Applies to service members that fail to meet military standards or engage in unacceptable behavior. Unfortunately, this also disqualifies veterans from receiving educational benefits or services under the GI Bill.
  • Other Than Honorable: This is the most severe discharge status — it even bans you from re-enlisting! But if you’re other than honorably discharged and have a service-related disability, health care isn’t totally off-limits. You’ll probably have to fill out some forms and jump through a few approval hoops to access any benefits.
Whenever you apply for VA benefits, they also pull your relevant service records. These records should explain what events and circumstances led to your dishonorable discharge.

In addition, the VA mails you a letter asking for any statements or evidence explaining your dishonorable discharge. If you have a dishonorable discharge, be sure to submit anything that paints you in a positive light.

Dishonorable Discharge Reasons That Ban You From VA Benefits
Title 38 states you can’t get any VA benefits or services if a dishonorable discharge reason below applies to you:
  • General court-martial that results in a sentence
  • Being a conscientious objector who refuses to perform your duty, wear the uniform, or otherwise comply with a competent military authority’s lawful orders
  • Desertion
  • Officers who resign for the good of the service
  • Absence without official leave (AWOL) for 180 days or more (if the VA finds no justification)
  • Requesting release from service as an alien during hostile action
If anything above led to your dishonorable discharge, then VA health care is off-limits to you.


 

wvstuck

Only worry about what you can control!
“A dishonorable discharge should be reserved for those who should be separated under conditions of dishonor, after having been convicted of offenses usually recognized in civilian jurisdictions as felonies, or of offenses of a military nature requiring severe punishment.”

It is a serious stretch to consider not wanting a vaccine injected into your body to be the equivalent of a felony in the civilian world.
 

MinnesotaSmith

Membership Revoked
Great start, but if the bill doesn't include a direct prohibition on EVER requiring the stab of troops, it'll just get wired around like it wasn't even there.
 

Millwright

Knuckle Dragger
_______________
A POV that I've applied to other anti-vax groups.

Anti-vaxxers tend to think and reason.

In the military setting, this is has multiple implications.

These people make things happen and solve problems.

This will leave a higher percentage of blind followers.

They will do exactly as ordered to do.
 

Blue 5

Veteran Member
According to the article the corporal was given a General under Honorable Conditions. In six months she'll be able to upgrade to honorable. So at least she'll have no trouble accessing her benefits. And our side has gained another team member. I salute her for her stand against tyranny.
 

mikeabn

Finally not a lurker!
“A dishonorable discharge should be reserved for those who should be separated under conditions of dishonor, after having been convicted of offenses usually recognized in civilian jurisdictions as felonies, or of offenses of a military nature requiring severe punishment.”

It is a serious stretch to consider not wanting a vaccine injected into your body to be the equivalent of a felony in the civilian world.
Of course it's a stretch. That's the point.
 

20Gauge

TB Fanatic
Lets hope this goes through. A dishonorable from the military is comparable to a Felony in the civilian sector.



Lawmakers Try to Ban Dishonorable Discharges for Troops Who Refuse Mandatory COVID-19 Vaccines

National Guardsman prepares to administer the Moderna COVID-19 vaccine.

Pfc. Shaniah Edwards, Medical Detachment, prepares to administer the Moderna COVID-19 vaccine to soldiers and airmen at the Joint Force Headquarters, February 12, 2021. (U.S. Army National Guard photo by Sgt. Leona C. Hendrickson)
2 Sep 2021

Military.com | By Travis Tritten

House lawmakers have backed legislation prohibiting dishonorable discharges for troops who refuse the COVID-19 vaccine, as the Navy gave its sailors 90 days to get the shot this week and the Army and Air Force were poised Thursday to enforce their own timetables.
Legislation sponsored by Rep. Mark Green, R-Tenn., an Army veteran, requires only honorable discharges for anyone who is separated from the military over refusing to be vaccinated. It was added to the fiscal 2022 defense authorization bill, passed by the House Armed Services Committee on Thursday.


"No American who raises their hand to serve our Nation should be punished for making a highly personal medical decision," Green said in a statement after the committee vote. The U.S. Food and Drug Administration fully approved the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine in August after allowing emergency use beginning in December 2020, saying it is safe and effective for those 16 years old and over.

Read Next: Sailors and Marines Have 90 Days to Get Vaccinated or Face Punishment

The Navy became the first service to enforce a timeframe for vaccinations in a series of memos on Tuesday and Wednesday following the FDA approval and an order by Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin for all troops to be vaccinated. The Army and Air Force are expected to give soldiers and airmen a deadline "very, very soon," Pentagon spokesman John Kirby said during a briefing with reporters Thursday.


But troops who refuse to be inoculated may not necessarily face dishonorable discharge, or even separation, according to Kirby.
The Pentagon has repeatedly stopped short of saying it will boot troops for refusing the shot. Commanders will have a range of options that stop short of punishment under the Uniform Code of Military Justice, Kirby said. The services also will allow religious exemptions to the vaccine.

"The secretary expects that the department leadership will implement these mandatory vaccines with skill but also ... professionalism and compassion," Kirby said. "When an individual declines to take a mandatory vaccine, they will be given an opportunity to talk to both medical providers as well as their own chain of command so that they can fully understand the decision they are making."
The House legislation barring dishonorable discharges now must go to a vote in the full chamber. The House version of the massive, must-pass defense authorization bill also must be reconciled with the Senate version in conference, where controversial measures often are eliminated.

In any case, the bill is unlikely to be signed into law until months after all the military services are enforcing COVID-19 inoculations.
Military.com reported on a Marine corporal who said she was discharged for refusing to wear a mask, possibly the first service member to be pushed out of the military in connection with COVID-19 rules.

According to the Pentagon, roughly 63% of all U.S. forces had received at least one dose or were fully vaccinated against COVID-19 as of Aug. 18.

That is wrong. People have the freedom to choose. If they choose not to do it, they you are dis=honorably discharged. That is the way it has been and should continue.

Freedom has a price. We should never try and avoid that price. It diminishes the value of Freedom.
 

ShadowMan

Designated Grumpy Old Fart
According to the article the corporal was given a General under Honorable Conditions. In six months she'll be able to upgrade to honorable. So at least she'll have no trouble accessing her benefits. And our side has gained another team member. I salute her for her stand against tyranny.

Sorry....but that "six months....upgrade to honorable" is an old wives tale. That simply does not happen. "There are no Automatic Upgrades". Not unless there's been a MAJOR change in the rules and regulations in recent years. In the 80's my duty station in the Chicago area hosted the military Discharge Review Board. I asked several members who actually sat on the board how many discharges ever got upgraded? The answer was "Very few. Less than ONE PERCENT of all other than Honorable Discharges were ever upgraded." Less than one percent. Basically what you got.....is what you get, and nothing is automatic.

Back then we had vets from just after WWI still trying to change their discharges. They came back year after year trying. The board members told me straight up that the veterans had to provide OVERWHELMING evidence of a carriage of misjustice on the military's part. We had a lot of Vietnam vets that tried and tried and tried, but failed year after year.

I was also a VA Education certifying officer for three college campases for nearly ten years. While there are some VA benefits available for "General under honorable conditions and General Discharges", GI Bill education benefits are ONLY available for Vets of an Honorable Discharge status.

For other veteran benefits, any discharge below General gets diddly squat.....ZIP!

A veteran can receive General under honorable and General discharges from NJP - Non-Judicial Punishment results, but Dishonorable Discharges have to be given out by Courts Martial proceedings. A DD is pretty much equivalent to a civilian Felony conviction and all that entails. Which is pretty much screwed, blue and tattooed. Forget voting, firearm ownership, jobs, bank loans, any job related to or connected in any way with the government, etc., etc., etc. Work for a company that has government contracts....bye-bye! The DD vet goes or the company loses the contract. School loans - nope. Home loans - nope. Anything in anyway connected to the government or backed by the government- nope.
 

Blue 5

Veteran Member
So what's your point...that she shouldn't have taken the stand that she did? Some of us have chosen to be the squeaky wheels because it must be done. You can't fault her for that.
 

mikeabn

Finally not a lurker!
Sorry....but that "six months....upgrade to honorable" is an old wives tale. That simply does not happen. "There are no Automatic Upgrades". Not unless there's been a MAJOR change in the rules and regulations in recent years. In the 80's my duty station in the Chicago area hosted the military Discharge Review Board. I asked several members who actually sat on the board how many discharges ever got upgraded? The answer was "Very few. Less than ONE PERCENT of all other than Honorable Discharges were ever upgraded." Less than one percent. Basically what you got.....is what you get, and nothing is automatic.

Back then we had vets from just after WWI still trying to change their discharges. They came back year after year trying. The board members told me straight up that the veterans had to provide OVERWHELMING evidence of a carriage of misjustice on the military's part. We had a lot of Vietnam vets that tried and tried and tried, but failed year after year.

I was also a VA Education certifying officer for three college campases for nearly ten years. While there are some VA benefits available for "General under honorable conditions and General Discharges", GI Bill education benefits are ONLY available for Vets of an Honorable Discharge status.

For other veteran benefits, any discharge below General gets diddly squat.....ZIP!

A veteran can receive General under honorable and General discharges from NJP - Non-Judicial Punishment results, but Dishonorable Discharges have to be given out by Courts Martial proceedings. A DD is pretty much equivalent to a civilian Felony conviction and all that entails. Which is pretty much screwed, blue and tattooed. Forget voting, firearm ownership, jobs, bank loans, any job related to or connected in any way with the government, etc., etc., etc. Work for a company that has government contracts....bye-bye! The DD vet goes or the company loses the contract. School loans - nope. Home loans - nope. Anything in anyway connected to the government or backed by the government- nope.
Absolutely correct, discharge upgrades do not happen.
 

ShadowMan

Designated Grumpy Old Fart
So what's your point...that she shouldn't have taken the stand that she did? Some of us have chosen to be the squeaky wheels because it must be done. You can't fault her for that.

Not at all. Just be aware of ALL the facts and what it means when you sign on that dotted line. What you're getting and what you're giving up. And if in your heart you feel what you're standing up for is worth it. Then accept the outcome. Some losing battles are worth it. Just ask The 300. Their sacrifice saved a nation and perhaps even a continent. Somethings are worth fighting and dying for. Just be sure they are the right things for the right reasons.
 

cheesesteaks

Senior Member
They did that when they made us get the swine flu shot. The Drill Sgt told us we will be on the next bus with a dishonorable discharge if we refuse. I got the damned shot and have had all kinds of crap happen to me including MS. I still think that damned shot got me sick
 

ShadowMan

Designated Grumpy Old Fart
Well here's another consideration. IF our troops do take the Covid vaccine as they are BEING ORDERED TO DO and THEN HAVE a negative reaction and as a result are then UNFIT for duty, guess what? They will be MEDICALLY DISCHARGED and will receive FREE medical care and FULL VA benefits for their military acquired disability for the rest of their lives.

If you are given a "lawful order" and something bad happens that results in a medical disability that event is considered "in the line of duty" and "service connected. That is the "Golden Ticket".

In addition once a disability is rated total and permanent due to a service-connected disability their spouse and children become eligible for VA Chapter 35 benefits.
  • Participants include a dependent child between the ages of 14 to 31 and a spouse, or surviving spouse, who qualifies for the benefit
Services Include:
  • Special Assistance
  • Special Restorative Training (SRT)
  • Specialized Vocational Training (SVT)
  • Educational Benefits (think GI Bill for dependents)
Ok, that's not going to make servicemen and women happy if they do have a negative reaction to the vaccine, but considering that in the civilian world there is NO COVERAGE for bad Covid Vaccine reactions, except MAYBE trying to apply for Social Security and MAYBE Medicaid/care. REMEMBER that the pharmaceutical companies have been EXEMPTED from lawsuits. Even if the drug reaction is serious and permanent....or if it results in death. Civilians are basically screwed.

At least veterans will be covered both on active duty and afterwards. This whole thing is going to COST THE GOVERNMENT and SHIP TON OF MONEY for a very long - long - long time! The government better be hoping that our military people don't have adverse reactions.
 
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Knoxville's Joker

Has No Life - Lives on TB
Well here's another consideration. IF our troops do take the Covid vaccine as they are BEING ORDERED TO DO and THEN HAVE a negative reaction and as a result are then UNFIT for duty, guess what? They will be MEDICALLY DISCHARGED and will receive FREE medical care and FULL VA benefits for their military acquired disability for the rest of their lives.

If you are given a "lawful order" and something happens bad, that event is considered "in the line of duty" and "service connected. That is the "Golden Ticket".

In addition once a disability is rated total and permanent due to a service-connected disability their spouse and children become eligible for VA Chapter 35 benefits.
  • Participants include a dependent child between the ages of 14 to 31 and a spouse, or surviving spouse, who qualifies for the benefit
Services Include:
  • Special Assistance
  • Special Restorative Training (SRT)
  • Specialized Vocational Training (SVT)
  • Educational Benefits (think GI Bill for dependents)
Ok, that's not going to make servicemen and women happy if they do have a negative reaction to the vaccine, but considering that in the civilian world there is NO COVERAGE for bad Covid Vaccine reactions, except MAYBE trying to apply for Social Security and MAYBE Medicaid/care. REMEMBER that the pharmaceutical companies have been EXEMPTED from lawsuits. Even if the drug reaction is serious and permanent....or if it results in death. Civilians are basically screwed.

At least veterans will be covered both on active duty and afterwards. This whole thing is going to COST THE GOVERNMENT and SHIP TON OF MONEY for a very long - long - long time! The government better be hoping that our military people don't have adverse reactions.

And they will fight it tooth and nail. And lose...
 
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