WAR How will it all unfold once the shooting starts ?

colonel holman

Veteran Member
Not a news item or editorial here. Just seeking opinions on how it unfolds once the Russians launch hostilities?

My anticipation and worry is Russia will be quite motivated to take out arms shipments head to Ukr from neighboring (and even not so neighboring) countries, perhaps even disabling bases where these arms may originate. This is why Germany is very insistent no arms will flow through their country nor allow arms of other countries that originated from Germany to be sent to Ukr. Russia certainly isn’t going to sit back and let other nations send lethal aid to kill Russian soldiers.

Will Russian air power or long range missile batteries take out flights on their way to Ukr from NATO, US, Turkey, either in the air on on tarmac being refueled for final leg? Will they hit planes being loaded, much like Israel hits sea and air ports in Lebanon when arms are being loaded, unloaded, stored. Rail and trucking transport outside of Ukr.

What sort of preemptive strikes outside of Ukr territory will they feel are critical? NATO responses? Can they be effective enough with cyber-strikes to shut down grid, comms, and critical sats in Europe and maybe even US to shut down Ukr supply lines from other nations, as an alternative to deep military strikes that would otherwise generate retaliatory strikes from NATO and US?

How does this unfold?
 

OldAndCrazy

Pureblood Forever
It's anyone's guess really. Now, I wouldn't be dare flying in the theatre of operations and even well outside of it during Vlad's Uke road trip.

1.35e+14 ps Road trip vid.

 

Trouble

Veteran Member
We and them have been doing this very thing for decades. We supply their enemies, they supply ours. That being said we are showing signs of cracking as a nation, they know a strong unified USA that is well led is a foe that they do not want. We are none of that anymore, it's their time to bloody our nose. If it were me, I'd remove our ability to move our military around. Take out our airlift capacity, remove our power projection meaning carriers and forward bases. How would I do this. There is only 1 answer to that question in truth. This doesn't end well for us. Let them have Ukraine , it's not our fight and not worth our blood.
 

Doc1

Has No Life - Lives on TB
Colonel Holman asked, "Not a news item or editorial here. Just seeking opinions on how it unfolds once the Russians launch hostilities?"

I find it interesting that you ask when the Russians will launch hostilities. We - the US - launched hostilities formerly when we engineered a coup and deposed the legally elected, pro-Russian Ukrainian government and replaced it with one of our puppets.

Since then we have been giving them financial and military assistance and intentionally and needlessly antagonizing the Russians to no good end. This is an obvious case of us looking for a war and it's sponsored by the same neocon cabal that's already gotten us into several no-win wars. Not that it's good mind you, but it's one thing to start a ridiculous war with Afghan hill people - which we couldn't and didn't win - and quite another to start a war with nuclear-armed Russia.

There hasn't been a Soviet Union in over thirty years and Ukraine is about as important to US national security as Laplanders in Finland. Still, we stupidly continue to support and grow NATO (which was created to counter the Soviet threat) and try to antagonize and threaten Russia. I should add that we are doing this while our economy and currency continues to wane and our international influence weakens.

It is my opinion that the threat of nuclear war - courtesy of the malevolent DC cabal - is as great now as it was in the Cold War days of the Cuban Missile Crisis of the early '60s.

Best
Doc
 

mecoastie

Veteran Member
I dont see Putin shooting down any planes before the invasion starts. To shoot down a cargo plane over a foreign nation would an instant act of war that is really unjustifiable. He has repeatedly stated that they are not going to invade the Ukraine so why should they care what is shipped in. Ukraine is no threat to Russia. It never has been. Now once he has invaded then I would say yes those planes become legit targets.
 

Hfcomms

EN66iq
Colonel Holman asked, "Not a news item or editorial here. Just seeking opinions on how it unfolds once the Russians launch hostilities?"

I find it interesting that you ask when the Russians will launch hostilities. We - the US - launched hostilities formerly when we engineered a coup and deposed the legally elected, pro-Russian Ukrainian government and replaced it with one of our puppets.

Since then we have been giving them financial and military assistance and intentionally and needlessly antagonizing the Russians to no good end. This is an obvious case of us looking for a war and it's sponsored by the same neocon cabal that's already gotten us into several no-win wars. Not that it's good mind you, but it's one thing to start a ridiculous war with Afghan hill people - which we couldn't and didn't win - and quite another to start a war with nuclear-armed Russia.

There hasn't been a Soviet Union in over thirty years and Ukraine is about as important to US national security as Laplanders in Finland. Still, we stupidly continue to support and grow NATO (which was created to counter the Soviet threat) and try to antagonize and threaten Russia. I should add that we are doing this while our economy and currency continues to wane and our international influence weakens.

It is my opinion that the threat of nuclear war - courtesy of the malevolent DC cabal - is as great now as it was in the Cold War days of the Cuban Missile Crisis of the early '60s.

Best
Doc


Couldn't agree more or have said it better. We (I use the collective 'we') are the ones spoiling for a fight and keep on attempting to throw our weight around but we are a corrupt and dying empire that doesn't want to let go. The latest debacle in Afghanistan should of made clear we are now a paper tiger.

We have had 20 years of war after 911 that have worn us out and helped to bankrupt us and we are lead by corrupt and incompetent leaders and our military has been deflowered in the senior civilian and flag officer ranks that started taking place with Bush and went into overdrive in Obama's two terms. Trump started to turn the ship around but you can't change the culture in four years especially with the deep state countering his efforts at every turn.

The desire of the globalists including those in vaunted positions in government, business and banking in the U.S. wanted to weaken us to the point of collapse and they have done so. We are ready to collapse morally, spiritually and financially. If we are stupid enough to start something with Russia at this point (especially in their own back yard where they have short supply lines and we have long and ponderous supply lines already attritted over the shenanigans of the last few years) we are going to get our clocks cleaned and at the least a very well deserved bloody nose which will show that the emperor truly has no clothes.

And as always it will be the fine young men and young women sacrificed upon the altar of convenience by sociopaths and psychopaths that have no regard for their lives. Putin has shown great restraint over years of contemptuous disdain shown towards his country and his concerns.
 

db cooper

Resident Secret Squirrel
My opinion rests somewhere between Doc1's post and the recent opinion of a German Admiral that does not believe there is a Russian threat.

I think the Russian threat is very similar to covid, it's all manufactured. Now covid is serious, there are deaths from the disease as well as manufactured deaths from the cure. Much the same for Russia, as they really were not a threat until all the political pushing. Sadly, our military industrial complex might get what they want, which is a war that will make Afghanistan look like a Sunday school class.

Isn't it just wonderful what stolen elections can give us. A trashed economy, shortages, more illegals than we can shake a stick at, mandates, death by injections, greater racial violence, disgraceful pullout from our longest war, and now these wonderful libs are wanting a new war.

I can see it, DC gets nuked by the Ruskies or Chinks. The Supreme Court justices are sitting there, glowing in the dark, and one of them says that maybe they should have stopped the stolen election when they had the chance.
 

mistaken1

Has No Life - Lives on TB
Will the commies in our government cause the ukies to push into the donbas?
Don't the ukies have a bunch of troops lined up there now?
And now with modern lethal aid and maybe NATO air cover will the ukies feel (pushed) the need to take back the crimea?
Wasn't a high ranking NATO navy man forced to resign for voicing the fact that the ukies will never get the crimea back?

Then it will be on like donkey kong.
 

Imrik

Veteran Member
I think Brandon won’t do squat other than stumble around asking for a pacifier. Then after the Russians have secured and prepped the theater we will try and move in and retake the Ukraine. While we are engaged in Europe, the chinese will move on Taiwan and then its lights out in conus.
How long it takes. Conus to call is anybody’s guess.
 

Imrik

Veteran Member
I think Brandon won’t do squat other than stumble around asking for a pacifier. Then after the Russians have secured and prepped the theater we will try and move in and retake the Ukraine. While we are engaged in Europe, the chinese will move on Taiwan and then its lights out in conus.
How long it takes Conus to fall is anybody’s guess.
 

colonel holman

Veteran Member
I would say if one day you hear about a massive hack of XYZ, then the power, internet, and banking seem to be out all at once, then you should start freaking out, and then you will know War has begun.
As I mentioned in earlier post, we here in US will hear nothing. Won’t know it is even happening, as we will awaken to a cold dark home, no power, no internet, no landlines, no cell phones, no sat radio in car, not even a GPS signal. Totally blinded. Will have to draw own conclusions at that point and act (or not) totally on our own based on our own prep plans. There will be no “guidance” from our fearless leaders as they will be busy with COG and no comms coming from them anyway. It will be every home, every neighborhood tribe, every city & town to (gradually) react. Local warlords with lists comes to mind
 

Illini Warrior

Illini Warrior
been watching for any backstage activity by China - getting ready for a quik surprise attack on Taiwan while everybody is watching the Ukraine theater ...

China will pound - pound - pound Taiwan for weeks prior to sending in the invasion barges & transports >>>> aerial bombardment will give them time for the armor & troop transporting & logistics - won't be seeing much to tip off their jump off timing ...

this could be more important than what happens with Ukraine pizzing contest - China won't be accepting any interference - spread of the combat area is a definite possibility - attacks on Japan are possible - China might try to close down the South China Sea entrance - India???? - covert sabotage in the US as warnings?? ....
 

Millwright

Knuckle Dragger
_______________
Shooting wars are soooo 20th century.

The new battlefield is here.

R.0a0410c941fe93e0f9d01bf113a09ee0


Only after the digital weapons are used will we see other tactics.

War is about removing the will to fight.

When the civilian population is in total disarray, it will be harder to find public support for a war.


The only modifier to this is public desire for revenge....hence the false flag tactic.
 

Walrus

Veteran Member
My opinion rests somewhere between Doc1's post and the recent opinion of a German Admiral that does not believe there is a Russian threat.

I think the Russian threat is very similar to covid, it's all manufactured. Now covid is serious, there are deaths from the disease as well as manufactured deaths from the cure. Much the same for Russia, as they really were not a threat until all the political pushing. Sadly, our military industrial complex might get what they want, which is a war that will make Afghanistan look like a Sunday school class.

Isn't it just wonderful what stolen elections can give us. A trashed economy, shortages, more illegals than we can shake a stick at, mandates, death by injections, greater racial violence, disgraceful pullout from our longest war, and now these wonderful libs are wanting a new war.

I can see it, DC gets nuked by the Ruskies or Chinks. The Supreme Court justices are sitting there, glowing in the dark, and one of them says that maybe they should have stopped the stolen election when they had the chance.
1642950390723.png
 

Walrus

Veteran Member
Not a news item or editorial here. Just seeking opinions on how it unfolds once the Russians launch hostilities?

My anticipation and worry is Russia will be quite motivated to take out arms shipments head to Ukr from neighboring (and even not so neighboring) countries, perhaps even disabling bases where these arms may originate. This is why Germany is very insistent no arms will flow through their country nor allow arms of other countries that originated from Germany to be sent to Ukr. Russia certainly isn’t going to sit back and let other nations send lethal aid to kill Russian soldiers.

Will Russian air power or long range missile batteries take out flights on their way to Ukr from NATO, US, Turkey, either in the air on on tarmac being refueled for final leg? Will they hit planes being loaded, much like Israel hits sea and air ports in Lebanon when arms are being loaded, unloaded, stored. Rail and trucking transport outside of Ukr.

What sort of preemptive strikes outside of Ukr territory will they feel are critical? NATO responses? Can they be effective enough with cyber-strikes to shut down grid, comms, and critical sats in Europe and maybe even US to shut down Ukr supply lines from other nations, as an alternative to deep military strikes that would otherwise generate retaliatory strikes from NATO and US?

How does this unfold?
One thing is quite prominent about the western aid to Ukraine. Compared to the force structure arrayed against Ukraine (I'm not referring to masses of infantry and the logistics trains required, just speaking of mainly Russian stand-off weapons which require no movement from mechanized infantry while the enemy is being repeatedly hammered), the aid is comparable to nerf balls being sent to strengthen the local tree house from invasion by snoopy grrrls.

Anti-tank weaponry - even great ones - aren't of much use to a defender if said tanks stay out of theater while defensive positions are being annihilated. The rest of this scenario is well-described by the good Doc1.
 

CaryC

Has No Life - Lives on TB
The ‘Georgia Model’: Russia’s Plan for Invading Ukraine?
Russia

Russian Artillery Firing. Image Credit: Creative Commons.

A Russian Invasion of Ukraine Might Resemble Its War with Georgia: The likelihood of a Russian invasion of Ukraine grows more concrete on a day-by-day basis in January 2022. Notable ill omens include the arrival in Belarus of 10 battalion tactical groups thousands of miles away from their bases in eastern Russia; the transiting of six amphibious landing ships from Russia’s Baltic fleet likely on a course for the Black Sea; and the reported deployment of Russian operatives into Eastern Ukraine who allegedly may be assigned to carry out a false-flag operation used to justify war.

Should Putin commit to military action, one of several possibilities is that Russian ground forces could seize the half of Ukraine east of the Dnieper river, on which Ukraine’s capital of Kyiv lies. But Western commentators (including the author) have warned that a substantial occupation of Ukrainian territory could mire Russia into an interminable counter-insurgency war against a mobilized Ukrainian nation already training citizens for irregular warfare.

However, prominent experts on the Russian military argue such warnings are probably ineffectual because permanent occupation of large swathes of Ukraine isn’t likely the end goal of a Russian attack. Instead, they believe Putin wants to cripple Ukraine’s military, and thus compel a deleveraged Kyiv to forsake its growing ties to NATO and concede more limited territory to Russian separatists in Eastern Ukraine.

For example, military analyst Rob Lee writes for FPRI: “The most likely ground offensive option is that the Russian military would focus on destroying Ukrainian military units east of the Dnieper River, inflicting casualties, taking prisoners of war, destroying military equipment, and degrading defense capabilities. This could include a planned withdrawal — a punitive raid —possibly after one or two weeks. It could also involve occupying terrain outside Kyiv and threatening the capital unless Russia’s demands are met. Such an operation would more closely resemble a more aggressive version of Russia’s war in Georgia in 2008 than its annexation of Crimea.”

In Lee’s view and other analysts, Moscow would likely rather pass on the brutal urban sieges and large-scale, long-term military occupation that would be involved in permanently seizing large parts of Ukraine. Nor would the Kremlin want to assume the economic costs of administrating and rebuilding extensive new territories devastated by war.

The “Georgia Model”
Like the conflict in Ukraine, the twelve-day Russo-Georgia war revolved around Moscow’s military support for pro-Russian separatists controlling two regions on Georgia’s border with Russia, South Ossetia, and Abkhazia. Deliberately provoked by Russian actions prior to the onset of hostilities including an artillery bombardment, Tbilisi unwisely initiated the larger conflict by launching an offensive targeting the South Ossetian separatist capital of Tskhinvali, and collaterally, the Russian military presence there.

Russia’s counteroffensive swiftly ejected the Georgian military from Tskhinvali—and then kept on going and going. Air and ballistic missile attacks struck targets throughout Georgia, killing over 200 civilians, and Russian forces opened a second front via Abkhazian territory too. The reeling Georgian military largely evaporated, and Russian troops faced no resistance occupying the cities of Gori in central Georgia, and the port of Poti.
Russia

Putin at St Petersburg International Economic Forum plenary session. Photo: TASS
Hypothetically, Russian forces could have rolled on from Gori into Tbilisi just 35 miles to the east, but occupying all of Georgia wasn’t Moscow’s endgame. Instead on August 12, Tbilisi agreed to a ceasefire. Russian forces went on to destroy more Georgian abandoned military equipment, including nearly the entire Georgian navy, before withdrawing, having crippled Georgia’s military and secured the effective annexation of the separatist regions into Russia.

A Plan to Bring Kyiv to Heel?

Obviously, Ukraine has more than four times Georgia’s population and thus has a greater ability to resist. This would be a war on a much greater scale requiring far greater forces, and result—at a minimum—in thousands of deaths, not a few hundred. Moscow has obviously factored that difference in given the breadth of its military preparations.

The deployment of Russian troops in Belarus, through which troops massing in Yelniya might also move—particularly suggest a Russian offensive aimed at the capital of Kyiv, just 110 miles south of the border down the E95 highway. That could bring pressure to bear on Ukraine’s political leadership in a very direct fashion.

As Rob Lee put it in his article: “By inflicting heavy losses on the Ukrainian military, taking prisoners of war, and degrading Kyiv’s defense capabilities, Russia could potentially alter [Ukrainian president] Zelensky’s incentive structure sufficiently to induce painful concessions.”
Russia

Russian Tanks in Red Square. Image: Creative Commons.
Such concessions likely include Kyiv cutting ties with NATO, stipulating its lasting neutrality vis-à-vis NATO, carving out certain territories on behalf of separatists in Eastern Ukraine, and perhaps securing lines of communication to Crimea. But Russian forces might withdraw from most major cities, leaving to Kyiv the stiff costs of administering and rebuilding them. Ukraine’s devastated military would be left incapable of resisting Russia militarily going forward.

Problems with a “Punishment War” Strategy
Such a strategy hinges on battering Ukraine’s civilian and military leaders through violence and a sense of hopelessness into submission—while ideally bypassing the messy work of capturing defended cities and occupying territory over time in the face of popular resistance.

But Moscow risks underestimating an important factor: Kyiv’s forces, though badly outgunned versus Russian firepower, have been hardened by eight years of fighting in Eastern Ukraine. That means they are more competent than in 2014, and less easily compelled to the kind of rapid collapse and evaporation that occurred in Georgia which allowed Russian forces to capture Gori and Poti essentially unopposed.

After all, in 2014-2015 even protracted Ukrainian defensive actions that ended in defeat in the battles of Debaltseve, and the Luhansk and Donetsk airports highlighted the tenacity and stubbornness of Ukrainian troops in the face of massive firepower.

Unfortunately, tenacity alone won’t suffice because Russia has extensive means to pummel Ukrainian forces with precision long-distance strikes using airpower, rocket and conventional artillery systems, and tactical ballistic missiles. Like the U.S. aerial bombardment of Iraq’s army in 1991 and 2003, these could devastate Ukraine’s ground forces before they can even shoot back (unless the Russian military fumbles suppression of Ukrainian air defenses). If the shock of the Russian assault causes an evaporation of resistance like in Georgia, the political question may become immaterial.
Russian Military Modernization

Russian T-14 Tank. Image: Creative Commons.
But Russia’s demonstrated standoff-warfare strategy becomes complicated if entrenched Ukrainian troops manage to hold defensive positions in major cities like Kharkiv, Kyiv, and Mariupol, or the Dnieper river cities of Dnipro and Zaporizhzhia.
Rooting out determined defenders one city block at a time is a slow and costly business that cannot be accomplished purely by standoff fires. Infantry and armored vehicles must be put in harm’s way and suffer losses—as would civilians, in far greater numbers. Indeed, besieging and starving out such cities would involve a conflux of humanitarian disasters.
Russia’s military is capable of such brutal warfare—after all, in 1999 it systematically used artillery and air power to level and capture Grozny over five weeks, killing thousands of civilians while sustaining around 2,000 soldiers killed.

But the larger scope of a Ukrainian conflict, and the military pressures that may mount from western Ukraine and sympathetic foreign actors, make committing to such a campaign more dangerous than besieging the capital of an isolated separatist republic. That could prolong the conflict and increase the costs and risks to Moscow, including various degrees of external intervention, denying it the proverbial “short, victorious war” it hopes for.

If the analysts are correct, Putin and his advisors may believe they can bully Kyiv to their will by devastating Ukraine’s military in a swift war while forgoing the unpleasant work of prolonged occupation and urban sieges. But should Russia initiate such a terrible war only for Ukraine’s leadership and soldiers prove less pliable to “military-technical measures” than anticipated, the costs to Russia and odds of foreign intervention could rise significantly.

The 'Georgia Model': Russia's Plan for Invading Ukraine? - 19FortyFive
 

db cooper

Resident Secret Squirrel
The ‘Georgia Model’: Russia’s Plan for Invading Ukraine?
Russia

Russian Artillery Firing. Image Credit: Creative Commons.

A Russian Invasion of Ukraine Might Resemble Its War with Georgia: The likelihood of a Russian invasion of Ukraine grows more concrete on a day-by-day basis in January 2022. Notable ill omens include the arrival in Belarus of 10 battalion tactical groups thousands of miles away from their bases in eastern Russia; the transiting of six amphibious landing ships from Russia’s Baltic fleet likely on a course for the Black Sea; and the reported deployment of Russian operatives into Eastern Ukraine who allegedly may be assigned to carry out a false-flag operation used to justify war.

Should Putin commit to military action, one of several possibilities is that Russian ground forces could seize the half of Ukraine east of the Dnieper river, on which Ukraine’s capital of Kyiv lies. But Western commentators (including the author) have warned that a substantial occupation of Ukrainian territory could mire Russia into an interminable counter-insurgency war against a mobilized Ukrainian nation already training citizens for irregular warfare.

However, prominent experts on the Russian military argue such warnings are probably ineffectual because permanent occupation of large swathes of Ukraine isn’t likely the end goal of a Russian attack. Instead, they believe Putin wants to cripple Ukraine’s military, and thus compel a deleveraged Kyiv to forsake its growing ties to NATO and concede more limited territory to Russian separatists in Eastern Ukraine.

For example, military analyst Rob Lee writes for FPRI: “The most likely ground offensive option is that the Russian military would focus on destroying Ukrainian military units east of the Dnieper River, inflicting casualties, taking prisoners of war, destroying military equipment, and degrading defense capabilities. This could include a planned withdrawal — a punitive raid —possibly after one or two weeks. It could also involve occupying terrain outside Kyiv and threatening the capital unless Russia’s demands are met. Such an operation would more closely resemble a more aggressive version of Russia’s war in Georgia in 2008 than its annexation of Crimea.”

In Lee’s view and other analysts, Moscow would likely rather pass on the brutal urban sieges and large-scale, long-term military occupation that would be involved in permanently seizing large parts of Ukraine. Nor would the Kremlin want to assume the economic costs of administrating and rebuilding extensive new territories devastated by war.

The “Georgia Model”
Like the conflict in Ukraine, the twelve-day Russo-Georgia war revolved around Moscow’s military support for pro-Russian separatists controlling two regions on Georgia’s border with Russia, South Ossetia, and Abkhazia. Deliberately provoked by Russian actions prior to the onset of hostilities including an artillery bombardment, Tbilisi unwisely initiated the larger conflict by launching an offensive targeting the South Ossetian separatist capital of Tskhinvali, and collaterally, the Russian military presence there.

Russia’s counteroffensive swiftly ejected the Georgian military from Tskhinvali—and then kept on going and going. Air and ballistic missile attacks struck targets throughout Georgia, killing over 200 civilians, and Russian forces opened a second front via Abkhazian territory too. The reeling Georgian military largely evaporated, and Russian troops faced no resistance occupying the cities of Gori in central Georgia, and the port of Poti.
Russia

Putin at St Petersburg International Economic Forum plenary session. Photo: TASS
Hypothetically, Russian forces could have rolled on from Gori into Tbilisi just 35 miles to the east, but occupying all of Georgia wasn’t Moscow’s endgame. Instead on August 12, Tbilisi agreed to a ceasefire. Russian forces went on to destroy more Georgian abandoned military equipment, including nearly the entire Georgian navy, before withdrawing, having crippled Georgia’s military and secured the effective annexation of the separatist regions into Russia.

A Plan to Bring Kyiv to Heel?

Obviously, Ukraine has more than four times Georgia’s population and thus has a greater ability to resist. This would be a war on a much greater scale requiring far greater forces, and result—at a minimum—in thousands of deaths, not a few hundred. Moscow has obviously factored that difference in given the breadth of its military preparations.

The deployment of Russian troops in Belarus, through which troops massing in Yelniya might also move—particularly suggest a Russian offensive aimed at the capital of Kyiv, just 110 miles south of the border down the E95 highway. That could bring pressure to bear on Ukraine’s political leadership in a very direct fashion.

As Rob Lee put it in his article: “By inflicting heavy losses on the Ukrainian military, taking prisoners of war, and degrading Kyiv’s defense capabilities, Russia could potentially alter [Ukrainian president] Zelensky’s incentive structure sufficiently to induce painful concessions.”
Russia

Russian Tanks in Red Square. Image: Creative Commons.
Such concessions likely include Kyiv cutting ties with NATO, stipulating its lasting neutrality vis-à-vis NATO, carving out certain territories on behalf of separatists in Eastern Ukraine, and perhaps securing lines of communication to Crimea. But Russian forces might withdraw from most major cities, leaving to Kyiv the stiff costs of administering and rebuilding them. Ukraine’s devastated military would be left incapable of resisting Russia militarily going forward.

Problems with a “Punishment War” Strategy
Such a strategy hinges on battering Ukraine’s civilian and military leaders through violence and a sense of hopelessness into submission—while ideally bypassing the messy work of capturing defended cities and occupying territory over time in the face of popular resistance.

But Moscow risks underestimating an important factor: Kyiv’s forces, though badly outgunned versus Russian firepower, have been hardened by eight years of fighting in Eastern Ukraine. That means they are more competent than in 2014, and less easily compelled to the kind of rapid collapse and evaporation that occurred in Georgia which allowed Russian forces to capture Gori and Poti essentially unopposed.

After all, in 2014-2015 even protracted Ukrainian defensive actions that ended in defeat in the battles of Debaltseve, and the Luhansk and Donetsk airports highlighted the tenacity and stubbornness of Ukrainian troops in the face of massive firepower.

Unfortunately, tenacity alone won’t suffice because Russia has extensive means to pummel Ukrainian forces with precision long-distance strikes using airpower, rocket and conventional artillery systems, and tactical ballistic missiles. Like the U.S. aerial bombardment of Iraq’s army in 1991 and 2003, these could devastate Ukraine’s ground forces before they can even shoot back (unless the Russian military fumbles suppression of Ukrainian air defenses). If the shock of the Russian assault causes an evaporation of resistance like in Georgia, the political question may become immaterial.
Russian Military Modernization

Russian T-14 Tank. Image: Creative Commons.
But Russia’s demonstrated standoff-warfare strategy becomes complicated if entrenched Ukrainian troops manage to hold defensive positions in major cities like Kharkiv, Kyiv, and Mariupol, or the Dnieper river cities of Dnipro and Zaporizhzhia.
Rooting out determined defenders one city block at a time is a slow and costly business that cannot be accomplished purely by standoff fires. Infantry and armored vehicles must be put in harm’s way and suffer losses—as would civilians, in far greater numbers. Indeed, besieging and starving out such cities would involve a conflux of humanitarian disasters.
Russia’s military is capable of such brutal warfare—after all, in 1999 it systematically used artillery and air power to level and capture Grozny over five weeks, killing thousands of civilians while sustaining around 2,000 soldiers killed.

But the larger scope of a Ukrainian conflict, and the military pressures that may mount from western Ukraine and sympathetic foreign actors, make committing to such a campaign more dangerous than besieging the capital of an isolated separatist republic. That could prolong the conflict and increase the costs and risks to Moscow, including various degrees of external intervention, denying it the proverbial “short, victorious war” it hopes for.

If the analysts are correct, Putin and his advisors may believe they can bully Kyiv to their will by devastating Ukraine’s military in a swift war while forgoing the unpleasant work of prolonged occupation and urban sieges. But should Russia initiate such a terrible war only for Ukraine’s leadership and soldiers prove less pliable to “military-technical measures” than anticipated, the costs to Russia and odds of foreign intervention could rise significantly.

The 'Georgia Model': Russia's Plan for Invading Ukraine? - 19FortyFive
I can tell by looking at those tank pictures that those dirty old filthy Ruskies know nothing about diversity. There's nothing but white supremacists in them. How deplorable!! /s/
 

Walrus

Veteran Member
Putin has done this successfully twice - once in Georgia in 2008 and again in Crimea in 2014. Both times he issued Russian passports to everyone in those places which wanted one - which was conveniently the majority of citizens - and went in to defend Russian citizens against reprisal from the recalcitrant nationalist factions. The Donbass looks largely to be in the same position strategically as those two earlier successes were.

I believe that giving up the Donbass to Russia is what Bai-Den meant when he was talking about a "minor incursion" the other day. Whether or not it was a slip of the tongue or deliberate, Putin heard that taking over the Donbass was OK. The people in that region have fought to become a part of Russia and they're likely going to get their wish.

This regional flare-up will only explode if the rest of Ukraine wants to jump into NATO's arms, so their bankrupt country can be subsidized by the rest of the Europeans and the US. In that case, all bets are off because Putin's red line is a sight more meaningful than any that Obammy ever "established".
 

mikeabn

Finally not a lurker!
I would say if one day you hear about a massive hack of XYZ, then the power, internet, and banking seem to be out all at once, then you should start freaking out, and then you will know War has begun.
Add in massive forest fires too. Get the Guard committed to that.
 

Laurane

Canadian Loonie
Ukraine is not a member of NATO and USA and Canada are under no obligation to help other than sell optional weapons. It will be interesting to see how the hawks manipulate the reason for joining any war in Ukraine
 

Walrus

Veteran Member
Ukraine is not a member of NATO and USA and Canada are under no obligation to help other than sell optional weapons. It will be interesting to see how the hawks manipulate the reason for joining any war in Ukraine
They're officially not, that's true, but they have accepted an invitation to join NATO. But it's a key point. The west is under no treaty obligations. If the invitation to join was withdrawn, this thing would probably fizzle out overnight.
 

philkar

Veteran Member
We and them have been doing this very thing for decades. We supply their enemies, they supply ours. That being said we are showing signs of cracking as a nation, they know a strong unified USA that is well led is a foe that they do not want. We are none of that anymore, it's their time to bloody our nose. If it were me, I'd remove our ability to move our military around. Take out our airlift capacity, remove our power projection meaning carriers and forward bases. How would I do this. There is only 1 answer to that question in truth. This doesn't end well for us. Let them have Ukraine , it's not our fight and not worth our blood.
If Putin would only bloody our nose.
 

hiwall

Has No Life - Lives on TB
I am still not convinced that the USA will fight a war with Russia or do any fighting in Ukraine.
I certainly admit the possibility exists but I don't think it will happen.
Yes, we will send billions in weapons over there but I think that is the extent of our involvement.
 

CaryC

Has No Life - Lives on TB
Ukraine is not a member of NATO and USA and Canada are under no obligation to help other than sell optional weapons. It will be interesting to see how the hawks manipulate the reason for joining any war in Ukraine
While that is true.......

One minute our beloved leader is saying that, and the next he is saying if Russia invades yada, yada. Sen. Wicker says we will nuke the site. ETC......

And at the same time our government/media is saying, Russia, Russia, Russia yada, yada, can you really believe them? We can't believe them on covid, the border, inflation, and over achieving, why should we believe them on this?

And at the same time Russia is saying it's all western hype, and they lie as a part of their DNA.

So who are we to believe?
 
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Troke

On TB every waking moment
There is merit to the idea that this whole "Russian invasion of Ukraine" idea is simply a concoction of the DS propagandists to get people's minds off how our economy & currency & government are collapsing and becoming obsolete.

Those troops clumping up in the dead of winter are some concoction of the Adm? Gee!
My view. Putin figures that when the crunch comes, Biden will go Afghanistan.
 

Jeep

Veteran Member
Now, in the event that Russia goes into Ukraine and things get dicey here in the US with cyber attacks. I wonder what will blm, antifa do? Cause problems in the US because of their communists' leanings, or what? To me that is another aspect that we will have to contend with, the 5th column of commie sympathizers.
 

Squid

Veteran Member
Once the shooting starts.

All the carefully crafted plans from all sides go into the toilet.

My most likely ignorance based guess is Putin carves at least 1/2 of Ukraine off and stops or pushes for the entire thing. My estimate is that the Russian losses or lack of losses would determine the 1/2 or whole question.

The US does nothing but feed Ukraine intelligence and weapons that will raise the cost for Russia in things like lost tanks, helicopters and planes. Possibly some strategic counter strikes inside Russia proper could raise the cost or provide a need for Putin to go all in regardless of the cost.

This is why the great plans become so much BS, war is the ultimate world of chaos.
 
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