PREP How Horrific Will It Be For The Non-Prepper?

MC2006

Veteran Member
http://www.shtfplan.com/emergency-preparedness/how-horrific-will-it-be-for-the-non-prepper_05122012

Editor’s Note: You have no doubt had your own set of issues dealing with friends and family members that simply don’t see the writing on the wall. The following article may serve to assist you in convincing those who simply don’t know, don’t want to know, don’t care, or have never even thought to contemplate. Some of the scenarios outlined below may be frightening, as they should be, because when it hits the fan millions of people will be thrown into desperation with no hope of a solution. Be Informed provides a variety of point-by-point details that may (and hopefully will) convince the non-prepared individual to at least insulate themselves with the basic necessities. The consequences for not doing so, as you’ll see, are severe and often deadly.
I have become personally so disenchanted with the way people fail to prep. People still don’t understand how important it is to put away. I have gotten into arguments over this and had cretins call me a fool because I put away food, water, and supplies. I thought about this and the frustration that other preppers have with this laid back idiotic attitude that there is no need for preparation. There are good people that just can’t/won’t start preparing. They have the money to do so, but just don’t want to. Many have only seen what happens to non-preppers on TV, but it still doesn’t make an impact.

In this article I detail some hard core realities to show just how awful it will be for those that don’t prep. Every one of these scenarios is something that has occurred to the non-prepper throughout history. While strong images come to mind, the purpose is to jar some people out of their inaction and into action before it is too late.

Preppers are good people and care much about those around them, and unless something does jar those around them that choose not to prep, their own survival chances could be reduced. For every bit of food, water, ammunition, or supplies you sacrifice to the non-prepper, the fewer irreplaceable supplies are left for you and your family in a crisis situation. It is hoped that the following can help certain people put into TRUE perspective just how horrific it will be for those that don’t prepare.

Here are the awful consequences for those refusing to prep.

As the world continues to decay at multiple facets, the common person has and continues to be lulled into a sense that everything is improving and will continue to for the distant future. After all, to them unemployment has peaked out and will drop until everyone that wants to work will easily be able to find good paying work, North Korea is no threat because all their long range “bottle rockets” fizz out, sanctions will eventually make Iran give up their nuclear program, oil prices will start going down after June or so, Europe will bail out Greece and Spain and everyone else, and U.S. debt will eventually come under control.

After 2012 everyone that has prepared themselves will go back to more “sensible” lives. “Good times are coming”, baseball season is here, let’s get back to watching some more crackerjack news.

It is amazing how people become good conversationalists with most others discussing all the gossip related news, while becoming mentally tranquilized into a totally deceptive state of denial of truly dangerous issues of the times. It’s the blind leading the blind… right off the cliff.

Rather than dealing with harsh reality, people surround themsleves with easy to digest material that can be talked about without directly influencing anyone’s lives. Meaningless chatter. Even for those unwilling to even think to prepare for a societal catastrophic event, there is also no desire to even face the extreme possibility of a sudden loss of one’s employment. A personal SHTF.

Look at some of the terrible personal pain experienced in America right now – and it hasn’t even hit the fan on a grand scale. Those people who have lived it up on credit, who failed to put much of anything away for a rainy day, who’ve lost their job, and who eventually lost their unemployment benefits are experiencing the first level of collapse. This is happening to millions of people in our own country, all around us, as we speak.

These Americans, who once enjoyed the luxuries that modern living had to offer, are now at their wits end, with very little hope for a return to their previous lives. They are no longer able to pay most or any of their bills. Many have to humiliatingly turn to others for help to pay for food, or worse, to obtain old, unhealthy and poor tasting food from locally funded food banks. Their credit cards are totally worthless. Many have been evicted from their homes and have uprooted their families to live either on the street, in tent cities, with relatives, or have been forced to live at homeless shelters, They’ve have had their vehicles repossessed, or simply can’t afford the gasoline anymore. Their living conditions often make it difficult, if not impossible, to look presentable for job interviews. For many, the life of stability they knew just a short while ago is gone, replaced with fear and a constant stress to the point of nervous breakdown.

A personal economic meltdown is confined to the individual or family, or at worst a few families. The human civilization remains intact and so do society’s safety nets.

With food assistance, rental assistance, homesless shelters, and family to turn to, even the most destitute are almost always able to find some sort of help – however menial.

It is no wonder with these known assistance programs, then, that people have forgotten or never thought to consider what happens IF and WHEN human civilization goes through a strong enough SHTF event. If that happens on a mass scale what happens to everyone that needs help that has not prepared ahead of time? What happens when governments are in such total disarray or destroyed altogether that they can’t help even if they wanted to?

The media and others have portrayed the good people that sacrifice much if not all “luxuries” of life to prepare themselves and their family and friends for extreme times, as chicken littles. Those who have made the choice to store up emergency food, water, and other necessities to avoid extreme life threatening risks, including suffering horribly during and after a widespread SHTF event, are laughed at and ridiculed often for “wasting” their lives on delusional paranoia.

But who is delusional? Those who see the signs around them and understand how vulnerable the system is, or those who believe that things never change, that politicians have their best interests at heart, and that if the worst happens the government will be there to provide everything they may need?

How many have considered the dire consequences of their failure to prepare in the event that the infrastructure and everything a country’s people depend on totally collapses?

The misery from long term unemployment and lack of money is like a walk in the park compared to the severe anguish and dangerous conditions that await those who have failed to prepare for the aftermath of a large scale cataclysm. The “minor” problems of unemployment that seem extremely major and painful to most today should serve as a wake up call to what life will be like when something much, much worse happens – when those proverbial safety nets are no longer there to catch us.

Many preppers have become deeply frustrated at those around them, especially those that truly mean something to them, because they simply refuse to put away anything at all for emergencies. The prepper is usually a person that cares a lot and it is often difficult for them to take a tough stance towards the people that they care about. However, unless someone changes the habits of those people that fail to get ready, decisions will need to be made, and they won’t be easy.

The choice of what the prepared prepper should do will boil down to either either adding these people to their own circle or survival group and reduce the group’s safety, supplies and self sufficiency, OR, they will have to let the non-prepper fend for themselves. This is a very personal choice, and each of us will need to decide based on our own morals, ethics and personal relationships.

As a last ditch effort, discussing the following scenarios with the non-prepper may help them understand what life will be like without what has sustained them so comfortably for so long.

This is the hard reality the non prepper needs to understand:

Without power the water company cannot get water to their faucets. Without water dehydration occurs within 24 hours. Dehydration causes much suffering before death.
Toilets in homes, unless they have an incineration toilet that still need power to work, don’t flush without water. Where will they go to the bathroom and then where will they dispose of human waste?
There will be no clean water available anywhere, especially in major cities, and they cannot live more than about three days without it.
Drinking dirty and polluted water will make them incredibly sick and accelerate the dehydration process.
Polluted water must be purified and that means having a good filter, bleach or other disinfectant, or fuel and something to boil water with.
Understand just how fragile the power and the infrastructure is that pumps water to the public. A breakdown in our power infrastructure or a cyber attack against utility systems will render them useless.
A single event can rapidly lead to a cascade of other events that would certainly collapse almost, if not, everything. This is why major snow storms, hurricanes or solar events in the past have affected millions of people in an entire region all at once.
A single, seemingly unimportant event may become quite terrible as its repercussions spread; this can include a far and away disaster.
Understand that the economies of the world are so interwoven that when one major economy falls it affects everyone.
Not having any food in the house means that if the stores are emptied suddenly in a bad enough situation that there will be no food available for a long period of time afterward. Recent history during disasters around the world has shown that stores can literally be emptied in minutes.
Think about how totally horrible the feeling of being very hungry is and what circumstances would cause one to be desperate enough to eat anything.
ALL stores can be closed instantly under martial law.
Understand that you may not be able to purchase anything after it starts, especially with any credit cards.
Understand the complexity of food and water distribution; breaks in these chains can stop anything from getting to the people.
What life will be like if no toilet paper is stored?
Understand that without light sources, the night will be pitch black, often with zero visibility.
There will be no communications, other than probably martial law type of instructions over the radio, that is if they have batteries for the radio.
Other than ham and shortwave radio, any information that is available will be sent out by the government as filtered propaganda that “they” want everyone to hear.
Without power consider what it will be like to not have any heat to stay warm, or air conditioned air to stay cooler – with no way of alleviating the situation.
Travelling will likely be by foot or bicycle, as their will be no fuel and roadways may be blocked.
Realize that ANY travel outside of the home or neighborhood will be extremely dangerous as ANYONE who moves becomes a target
Non preppers will be pushed way beyond their limit because of lack of supplies.
The non prepper must realize their government does not really care about them individually, that they are a mere number and help will likely not come from them.
They have to figure out somewhere to get food. This can mean wild plants which they must know how to identify as safe, or risk poisoning themselves.
They have to understand that when we refer to “having no food” it doesn’t mean not having the food they are used to enjoying, it means no food to eat at all.
They have to understand that if they are fortunate enough to have any running water, they will probably have to bathe in cold water for lack of stored fuel to heat water.
They have to realize that the very strange and totally unexpected is going to be all around them, made that much worse because of lack of any reliable self defense stores or skills.
They might have to remain on the run constantly because of looking for water and food.
They must understand that bad will be magnified magnitudes to living misery because of lack of food, water, and other necessary items that they took for granted for so long.

Okay, now comes the “truly ugly and unthinkable” life that most, if not all, people that have failed and refused to prepare themselves will deal with. Clear vivid visualization is key here for anyone that ho hums the idea of prepping.

What horrors they will likely face after a cave-in of their nation’s economy, war, geophysical upheaval, or whatever crisis is bad enough to disturb or stop their nation from working and functioning? There are plenty of very potential SHTF events that are simply awaiting a catalyst to trigger them.

The Non-Prepper (NP) has to realize right off the bat that 911 and other emergency calls in will be met with silence or some recording telling the caller not to panic.
The (NP) that has no reliable self defense that can stop an attacker, will not get help from public services, and will become a victim of rape, assault, torture, or murder.
The (NP) that has no reliable self defense and will not only be at the mercy of criminal elements, but also have to contend with many desperate animals, some with rabies.
The (NP) that has no food will either have to find food or be ready to beg for food or worse, like sacrificing their bodies or other horrible acts or things to get a bite of food.
The (NP) will have to go through the worst, most rancid conditions of garbage to just maybe find what they should have stored up.
The (NP) will go through panic and near if not total psychosis looking for any water source right before their bodies begin shutting down during advanced stages of dehydration.
The (NP) will go through unbearable trauma when their children and other people around them are crying, screaming, and suffering with intense hunger pains in their stomachs.
The (NP) will have to deal with the awful stench of rotting wastes from many sources because they have not taken the effort to even store up waste disposal plastic bags.
The (NP) will have disease and pathogens everywhere, not only because they have no trash disposal means, but because they haven’t prepared how to deal with trash and waste.
The (NP) will have to live in very primitive conditions after things around them deteriorate rapidly, because they have neglected putting away anything to make life more bearable.
The (NP) and those around them will likely develop all sorts of infective skin rashes from the lack of insight of storing up toilet paper. Imagine the smell for a moment.
The (NP) will have to handle biting insects and other vermin that will collect amoungst the filth that will pile up. No pest control stored up along with no other supplies.
The (NP) will have no way of treating sickness certain to follow a SHTF event, no first aid and likely no training or knowledge about how to treat the ill on top of this.
The (NP) will have sick and dying people around them because of not being able to treat minor injuries. Didn’t even stock up on disinfectives. Unsanitary conditions lead to infection.
The (NP) and others around them will experience much grief as they watch helplessly as their family members literally die of starvation right in front of their eyes.
The (NP) won’t believe how desperate hunger drives them and those that mean everything to them to “trying” to eat food that taste so bad it gags them and comes back up.
The (NP) will likely have family and friends around them that have also not prepared committing suicide because they can’t take it any longer.
The (NP) will witness some of those people around them lose any sense of civilized humanity in them and behave like wild animals after some time from lack of necessities.
The (NP) and family members, maybe friends also, will at some point end up barbecuing or eating raw the family dog, cat, bird, any pet dear to everyone for food.
The (NP) will likely get into physical fights with other family members over any scrap of food available as rational thoughts are lost to wanton hunger.
The (NP) as many other (NP’s) will eventually go out of any safety of their home looking for food and or water, become disorientated and lost, and die a hard death somewhere.
The (NP) that is “lucky” enough to find some government help will likely have to almost sell their soul, probably all their freedom, to get tiny rations – just enough to keep them alive.
The (NP) will see widespread violence and barbarism that will shock them to the core and will wish that they had purchased some form of firearm and stocked up on ammunition.
The (NP) better get used to attempting to explain the children and other adults why they wasted all that money on junk, and didn’t buy any emergency food and other supplies.
The (NP), no matter how positive they are will drop quickly into depression and lose willpower as having nothing to hold on to does this, along with lack of any nutrition.
The (NP) will feel the worst guilt imaginable as they hear their family moaning in anguish from lack of anything to eat, knowing they could have done something to prepare.
The (NP) will most likely not see the rebuilding and recovery after A SHTF event. They will, like almost all NP’s, be statistics. Some will die hours or a day before help arrives.
The (NP) from lack of food, drinking bad water, no light at night, the horrid smells, no good self defense, the overall horror, will often be paralyzed with fear and despair, blank stare.
The (NP) is totally helpless after SHTF, will have to rely totally on charity of those prepared to live. They will take all sorts of desperate measures likely to get them shot. They’ll attempt to eat hazardous foods like an animal trapped in a house will do, and get sick and suffer much before dying. The (NP) will likely die (ugly and hard) as they lived, unprepared for anything.

If we were to use one single word to describe the torments that someone who “chooses” not to prepare will go through after a true you know what hits the fan it would be “PREVENTABLE”.

Almost every single person, even a very poor person, has the capacity to put away emergency food and supplies. Even homeless people have stashes of something just in case things become so bad that the normal hand outs and thrown-away items dry up. Many people with good sources of income don’t even have an extra can of food or any water put away at all. This is stupidity beyond words.

Every day lightweight disasters happen in all parts of the world that disturb services enough that people are confined to their homes for a certain amount of time. While recovery is short, people are still uncomfortable during these times. Look what happens after a power outage at night and you will be mystified at how many homes are completely dark for hours. People have not even bought an extra couple of candles or any battery operated light sources. Even in well-to-do neighborhoods you may hear only a lone generator going after a blackout. This lack of preparedness is truly frightening and plays itself out again, again, and again every time services are disrupted for minor to major reasons. It’s as if there is something wrong with storing extra food, water, and supplies.

Even after “lessons” played out to what happens to those non-prepared, most people still feel that it just cannot happen to them, or won’t ever happen to them again. It should be proof enough to people what happens to those unprepared after disasters simply by looking at those that have gone through it firsthand. The difference, though, comes in that these disasters have had recovery periods and help from others. Even Haiti received some help and conditions remain putrid over there.

After a TRUE SHTF, it is presumable that government help and others coming to the aid of those in need WON’T happen for long periods of time. During that time those that have chosen to not put food, water, and necessities away are going to be in life threatening positions. Most people just don’t get that when the supermarket shelves are empty they will stay that way for an extended period. When the utilities go down, especially water, it may be weeks, months, or longer before they come back, if ever. Without what someone needs to survive each day, it is not going to magically appear, and depending on the goodwill of others to feed them and sacrifice their own family’s survival chances is a terrible choice.

People MUST know what life will be like after SHTF in mega fashion if they refuse to prepare. This is NOT new. Terrible events have plunged people into the deepest levels of desperation and hopelessness, and they will happen again and again.

While the above consequences to the non-prepper are extremely abysmal for anyone to read, the simple fact of the matter is they have already happened time and time again to those that have nothing put away. People have resorted to cannibalism and gone to levels of primitive savage behavior out of shear desperation and out of literally losing their minds to the physical depletion of food and water that keeps the physical body operating. Sometimes showing the extreme severity and results of a person’s lack of action, such as failure of the simple act of putting away extra food, water, and supplies, can be the kick in the complacency that they need.

It’s really easy to put away food and supplies. All one has to do is add a little bit of extra food to the grocery cart for long-term storage. Over time this adds up to a well stocked pantry of supplies.

There is something that is in a can of food that everyone can eat and enjoy the taste of, so talk to family members about their nutritional preferences and start stocking up. Toilet paper and other supplies that really don’t have any expiration date can be put away and forgotten about ’til needed.

There MUST be common sense and intelligence to see what happens IF they don’t stock up for the future. There has to be the DESIRE to get started, and this is the real problem with so many.

Once started, however, prepping becomes a type of life saving routine or positive lifestyle habit. It is easy and can and will save one from misery. It may save their life and the lives of their family from ruin when SHTF, which is almost inevitably going to happen someday. Every month and year that goes by without a true SHTF event, makes it more likely that it will happen. Basic statistical chance shows this to be the case, but people continue the same pattern of behavior that has led them to the same devastation countless time before.

For those preppers that have people around them that refuse to prepare, you can at least have some degree of solace knowing that you tried to show the non-prepping person(s) what not having anything will mean to them and their families.

All we can do is try. Once we’ve given it our best shot, all we can do is let those who have been warned about the direness of the possibilities live their lives the way that want to. They will, unfortunately, live in a world of regret and suffering if the nation and the world falls apart around them.

To every action there is an opposite equal reaction. Preppers will see their efforts have been more than worth it. Objects that are motionless tend to remain motionless and non-preppers will find there are horrific consequences for their lack of effort and motion to put away “life insurance” preps for themselves and their families.
 

The Mountain

Here since the beginning
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Yeah, things will be bad, but this:

"The (NP) and those around them will likely develop all sorts of infective skin rashes from the lack of insight of storing up toilet paper. Imagine the smell for a moment."

is total crap (pardon the pun). Living in India, I can tell you that even wealthy folks here often don't use toilet paper, or use it only on rare occasions. Nearly everyone here grew up having to wash themselves after defecating, and still know how, and no one has "infective skin rashes" of any kind as a result. It's different, but not nearly the horror most think it is. Shit wipes off, to quote Stephen King, and it washes off even easier, especially with proper soap (though just water will work). Most folks time things so they end up taking their daily shower/bath right after defecating, which solves the problem of cleaning up. Yes, you have to be a little more careful, but I've been here two years now, and haven't once gotten sick from not having toilet paper (eating street food on the other hand...). And, my hand doesn't smell at all, nor is it unclean. In a SHTF situation, folks will quickly figure out how to use a couple cups of water to wash themselves clean, and that will be the end of the need for toilet paper.

ETA: recent studies show that using toilet paper actually causes more problems than it solves. Folks in The West have pretty much settled on the least effective, most damaging way to defecate and clean up afterwards.
 

Publius

TB Fanatic
Some just needs to ask people that live in Florida if they keep a stock of goods just in case a hurricane comes along taking out the power and blocking the roads for two or more weeks. You will get a number of stories of such events and having to really ruff it without power or running water.
 

packyderms_wife

Neither here nor there.
Thread title is misleading. After watching a program about the nomads of the Tibetan steppes this evening the thread title should read

How Horrific Will It Be For The West?

Cause I've gotta tell you there's a HUGE percentage of the planet out there STILL LIVING the 300AD lifestyle that won't even notice a difference, but those in the west WILL notice and WILL feel the pain and WON'T survive no matter how prepped they are!!!

:sht::sht::sht:
 

The Mountain

Here since the beginning
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Packyderms_wife, I think you summarized it better than I did with my point. Only in the near-decadent West will any major collapse result in a significant loss of "standard of living". Here in India, power cuts are commonplace, so even though they're not comfortable, they can be dealt with. Many here (at least in the area I live) are subsistance farmers or tribals, and maybe get power for an hour or two in a day. They deal with it. Toilet paper is almost unheard of here, as I noted, and this applies to much of South Asia, Africa, South America, and probably many areas in Russia and former Soviet satellites as well. Japan has already gone beyond toilet paper to having toilets that do the washing for you, but it's nothing more than a high-tech version of what we have here. Food is readily available from local farmers, and much of it is harvested non-mechanically, so the majority of foodstuffs will still be available even after a major economic collapse where I am, plus I have fruit trees and coconut trees in my back yard, as does pretty much everyone here. Banana plants are weeds here, they're so plentiful.
 

Beelbill

Inactive
The biggest problem is the water. In the big cities, without water coming from taps, the people will die by millions in just a short time. Any drops of water no matter how dirty will much more likely go in their mouth rather than to clean their butt. Even preppers with a barrel of water will run out quickly. Big cities are death traps. In the country there may be water, but it is contaminated. People could live by a big lake and die from lack of a filter. For those that find some source of water, the next problem becomes food. Once the stores are empty, there will not be many city gardens to support the millions of people. There is only one source of meat in the city and it won't take long for the starving people to figure that out. Now we are talking truly horrible. In the country, even some of the preppers have deluded themselves into thinking they can just go hunting for their food. Those woods that right now are deserted of people and full of wildlife will be emptied like the grocery stores and instead will be full of hunters looking for any meat no matter how many legs it walks upon. Farms with cattle will find dead bodies rotting in the sun because someone killed them for meat and then only took a small amount that was easy to cut off and carry. Gangs from the cities will descend upon the country like locusts destroying everything in sight and then moving on. Even preppers will find that it is one thing to shoot a paper target and another thing to kill a starving human. Those will big hearts will offer food to a starving person one day and find a thousand starving people at their door the next day. Those that get past the initial lack of water, food, and defense, and disease may find survival is not all it is cracked up to be. If you think about it too much, it makes you wish you were a DGI.
 

Beth

Membership Revoked
What you wrote makes sense logically, MC, but regardless of how well one preps, it's still no guarantee.

Ecclesiastes 9:11

'For I returned to see under the sun that the swift do not always have the race, nor the mighty ones the battle, and neither do the wise always have the food, nor do the discerning ones have the favor, nor those with ability, the wealth, for time and unforeseen occurrence befalls them all.'


DH and I lived in a beautiful, pristine, and remote location, with glacial lakes and an abundance of game and fish for food. We had a great garden too, brimming with healthy stuff. After our DGI children were grown up and gone we had preps enough for fifteen years, y'know, assorted grains, beans, oatmeal, and cans of all the 'good' stuff. Same thing with toiletries, batteries, tools, and ammo etc.

Last year we were both diagnosed with diabetes, and the odds of that happening were staggering because neither of us had any known risk factors, and the kind of diabetes I have is extremely rare - and genetic. Anyway, the FOOD preps we gradually amassed, stored, and rotated were then useless to us - we couldn't eat them. The food in the garden was useless too.

THEN, just for extra fun, the .gov decided to discontinue my husband's job (driving a school bus to an eight-student school) without warning - they stopped all rural routes in BC. There were no other jobs in the area - none - so we relocated, while still paying the mortgage on our house and rent on another, and my husband began driving trucks on hellish mining roads, and he wrecked his back in the process a few months later.

The insurance company wouldn't pay in a timely manner, so we couldn't make our mortgage (and rent) payments, hence we lost our house and most of our belongings, including our other preps, and we had no choice but to move into our OLD (1986) 28' RV, which is where we're living now. DH's back is s-l-o-w-l-y healing, but our credit rating is terrible now, so even if he gets a job, renting a decent apartment will be next to impossible. We're hoping that our RV holds up, but wintering in Canada is not for the faint of heart!

We're blessed in that we do have skills that enable us to make money in cosmopolitan areas, as well as doing the kind of work that is good for local communities, but we don't have much in the way of preps anymore - and we definitely 'get it'!

I also need meds to keep me alive and I have, at best, a year's worth of those....

The truth is, some of us who prepped diligently will die, while others who didn't prep at all will make it.

The best thing we have going for us, the Grace of God notwithstanding, is the skills we have and what's between our ears.

It can happen, MC. It happened to us.
 

China Connection

TB Fanatic
Yes I don't think everything is going to collapse. There will be those with jobs and those without. Crime will go like Mexico. Inflation will kick in at some stage. So if you end up with no job then you will have a hard time. If thugs break in then you will have a harder time. If you have no food, no job, no money then you are dead.

The trouble with most here on Timebomb is that you talk, talk, talk but really you still expect to be left alone with your stack of food but between thugs and government thugs you will be lucky to keep your supplies past a few months if things go as bad as most of you expect.

Those in the countryside with things growing will probably have a better chance than the rest. Nobody really know what is going to happen.
 
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The Mountain

Here since the beginning
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CC, I don't think it's even that rosy. Country-dwellers, IMHO, discount the possibility that eventually, one of the city thugs is going to have an epiphany and realize that their food had to come from somewhere, and that somewhere must be the countryside. They'll head outside city limits looking for the hamburger trees and potato chip fields. When they don't find those, they'll start ransacking the farms. Yes, there'll be a lot of lives lost, but they'll be on both sides, and the city parasites will keep coming. Sooner or later, most everyone out in the country is going to be cut off or dead.
 

Beth

Membership Revoked
CC, I don't think it's even that rosy. Country-dwellers, IMHO, discount the possibility that eventually, one of the city thugs is going to have an epiphany and realize that their food had to come from somewhere, and that somewhere must be the countryside. They'll head outside city limits looking for the hamburger trees and potato chip fields. When they don't find those, they'll start ransacking the farms. Yes, there'll be a lot of lives lost, but they'll be on both sides, and the city parasites will keep coming. Sooner or later, most everyone out in the country is going to be cut off or dead.

With respect, I strongly disagree. While I no longer live there full time, the remote mountain area in which we raised our family will fare well, I believe, for several reasons.

A couple of weeks ago a stranger came to town, a young man who was thirty-ish, so I'm told, and after refusing help from the local innkeeper, he was immediately suspect since he had no transportation and could name no one in the settlement. (There are only circa 67 people in the span of two nearby settlements.) The stranger then made the mistake of trespassing in one of the local's trucks (he couldn't break and enter because nobody locks anything up here), and was rapidly transported to the nearest small town - 110 mountain kilometers away, which to those of you who're familiar with the back country know is the equivalent of a hundred rugged miles. They have a small RCMP station there.

We don't see many strangers. Most are too afraid of the 'road,' the bears, and the other wildlife. Apparently, this particular stranger hitched a ride with someone, but I can't imagine who - couldn't have been a local.

My point is that most people here are GI's, and while trusting and hospitable, they are extremely wary of strangers, and I don't know anyone who doesn't have a rifle.

Too, fruit doesn't grow on trees in these mountains, unless we're talking berry bushes, so to feed oneself, one would need to break into a house, and that would be... unwise - very. In a self-policing society, well, if TSHTF in a big way, there's plenty of room in the forest to lose a bunch of bodies. Just saying.
 

The Mountain

Here since the beginning
_______________
Beth, I understand. I would rebut on two fronts: One, I was mainly referring to the farmland outside the cities, not the little tiny towns way out in the sticks. The rural areas just outside the cities will be the hardest-hit. Even accounting for all the firearms out there, and the tendency of neighbors to work together in normal times, during a SHTF situation, I think you'll find that many more people than you expect will adopt a much more everyone-for-themselves approach. Further, I suspect that it won't just be random "lone-wolf" loners, but rather large mobs of people, probably in the 20-30 person range. Close to the cities, it'll be mobs-of-convenience who attack each other just as much as they do their targets, but further out, and further along into the SHTF event, there will be roving gangs looking for well-supplied, small communities like yours. You are not unreasonably far from the authorities in today's world, but if the balloon goes up, that 100 kilometers might as well be 1000. True, wilderness can hide a lot of bodies, but those can just as easily be the good guys as the bad guys. If a group of say, 40 well-armed gangbangers rolled into your little town, and started taking over, how long do you think the town would last? Yes, you might eventually kill all of them, but they'd take a lot of you with them. It would be unrealistic to think that such will happen to every little town, but it only has to be yours to matter.

Make a plan, involve everyone ahead of time. If you really think TS will HTF, everyone should be on board with how things will be done before it becomes a problem. Keep in mind, some of your town residents might decide they're better off somewhere else (want to link up with family elsewhere, want to not deal with Canadian winters etc). If your town population drops from 60 to 20, then what?
 

Beth

Membership Revoked
Beth, I understand. I would rebut on two fronts: One, I was mainly referring to the farmland outside the cities, not the little tiny towns way out in the sticks. The rural areas just outside the cities will be the hardest-hit. Even accounting for all the firearms out there, and the tendency of neighbors to work together in normal times, during a SHTF situation, I think you'll find that many more people than you expect will adopt a much more everyone-for-themselves approach. Further, I suspect that it won't just be random "lone-wolf" loners, but rather large mobs of people, probably in the 20-30 person range. Close to the cities, it'll be mobs-of-convenience who attack each other just as much as they do their targets, but further out, and further along into the SHTF event, there will be roving gangs looking for well-supplied, small communities like yours. You are not unreasonably far from the authorities in today's world, but if the balloon goes up, that 100 kilometers might as well be 1000. True, wilderness can hide a lot of bodies, but those can just as easily be the good guys as the bad guys. If a group of say, 40 well-armed gangbangers rolled into your little town, and started taking over, how long do you think the town would last? Yes, you might eventually kill all of them, but they'd take a lot of you with them. It would be unrealistic to think that such will happen to every little town, but it only has to be yours to matter.

Make a plan, involve everyone ahead of time. If you really think TS will HTF, everyone should be on board with how things will be done before it becomes a problem. Keep in mind, some of your town residents might decide they're better off somewhere else (want to link up with family elsewhere, want to not deal with Canadian winters etc). If your town population drops from 60 to 20, then what?

Morning, Mountain!

I'm not going to argue the point primarily because I can only speak for the folks I know, and there's a bridge that one must cross to access either of the two settlements about which I was speaking, and we long ago decided that we'd blow up that bridge if the 'outside world' became hostile. Nobody could swim those rapids and live!

It's a great location and DH and I wouldn't have left there if we didn't have to. Everyone there is self-sufficient under God, as the power goes out regularly and nothing much from civilization can be counted upon. Three years ago we (none of us) couldn't leave the settlements because a raging forest fire surrounded us for two whole months. Helicopters flew in drinking water and sandwiches daily, and not a soul said that they didn't need them. I was soooo proud of 'em all! :)

The air sure was hard to breathe for that couple of months though. Ugh!
 

PghPanther

Has No Life - Lives on TB
Water..........whowever doesn't have a clean healthy supply of water to drink will die in the first 48 to 96 hrs..........the body must have it.........
 

Now-Later

Veteran Member
I don’t think people really take that into serious consideration as how fast the population will die off and the smell and disease that will follow
 

Old Gray Mare

TB Fanatic
The (NP) will feel the worst guilt imaginable as they hear their family moaning in anguish from lack of anything to eat, knowing they could have done something to prepare. :lol:
Most of us have had to deal with DGI's before, during and after emergencies. DGI's don't get it, don't want to get and are happy to let someone, anyone else get it for them. That's what they pay taxes for! Right? In an emergency regardless of scope I fully expect DGI's to call 991 and expect help to be on its way shortly. When it does not show up I expect the following from DGI's during a long term emergency:
Denial - Of the fact no one is coming to rescue them.
Anxiety - They will wait and fret wasting valuable time, calories and other resources expecting someone to come rescue them.
Anger - When they finally come to the realization no one is coming to rescue them.
Blame - They have not taken responsibility for themselves to this point, why should they be expected to start now? So I expect them to blame everyone and everything (except themselves of course!) for their problems and not providing instant relief for all said problems.
Demands - I expect them to demand relief and that others that are prepared "share". If those that have refuse to share they are "hoarding" stuff the DGI's want that will be "justification" for "redistribution". You've heard about "the greater good?"
No guilt involved here, no morals or respect for private property either.

The questions are; will the GI's be able to keep what they have? Will the GI's be willing to do to help the DIG's that have an epiphany and are willing to get off their hind quarters, lose the 'tude and learn to help themselves? What resources will be left locally to get the job done?
 
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Beth

Membership Revoked
Water..........whowever doesn't have a clean healthy supply of water to drink will die in the first 48 to 96 hrs..........the body must have it.........

Yep, and in the absence of forest fires, when people are permitted to leave the safety of their settlements, glacial lakes abound in Western Canada's Coastal Mountains, so clean drinking water isn't a problem there. Four drops of bleach per 4L jug and you can drink it straight from the bottle.

At 5,000 - 8,000 ft., no one would last a day on foot without 4L of water - summer or winter - another reason why I sincerely doubt that starving, maurading masses will get anywhere close to high country settlements.
 

Old Gray Mare

TB Fanatic
Yep, and in the absence of forest fires, when people are permitted to leave the safety of their settlements, glacial lakes abound in Western Canada's Coastal Mountains, so clean drinking water isn't a problem there. Four drops of bleach per 4L jug and you can drink it straight from the bottle.
House hold bleach loses its ability to disinfect after about 3 to 5 months after purchase.
 

China Connection

TB Fanatic
Look I look at the land this way. There are 2% on the land and 98% in the cities, if the cities go even for a short time it means that for arguments sake something in excess of 60 city people mainly armed to every one in the countryside. If there is a road up to where you live then you are unsafe. If there are miles of bush between you and the nearest road then you are fairly safe.

If you are way out in the bush then you will find that everything wants to eat whatever you can grow. Wildlife doesn't however take long to shot out. However if you are in a cold area then make sure you only shot stuff in the winter when little is growing. Also as soon as you let off a gun others will hear you and come searching to see what else you have.

Fishing is quite but the fish have to be in the water. Learn to be like a native meaning don't overshoot, over fish, over ea
 

Beth

Membership Revoked
House hold bleach loses its ability to disinfect after about 3 to 5 months after purchase.

That's why we buy the tablets too. ;) Seriously though, OGM, when it's not fire season (which only lasts three months) you can filter or boil as much as you need. When we lived there full time, we always had six months' worth of distilled drinking water in 10-gallon bottles in our basement.
 

Beth

Membership Revoked
Look I look at the land this way. There are 2% on the land and 98% in the cities, if the cities go even for a short time it means that for arguments sake something in excess of 60 city people mainly armed to every one in the countryside. If there is a road up to where you live then you are unsafe. If there are miles of bush between you and the nearest road then you are fairly safe.

If you are way out in the bush then you will find that everything wants to eat whatever you can grow. Wildlife doesn't however take long to shot out. However if you are in a cold area then make sure you only shot stuff in the winter when little is growing. Also as soon as you let off a gun others will hear you and come searching to see what else you have.

Fishing is quite but the fish have to be in the water. Learn to be like a native meaning don't overshoot, over fish, over ea

Morning, China!

I agree. There's sort of an off-off road up to where we used to live (and still like to spend our summers), but trips into the nearest town are expensive. It's only 100+ km's away, but it takes three hours to cover the terrain - in a GOOD 4 x 4, and it's about $360 per trip. $60 for the gas and $300 for the two tires you'll blow! LOL! (I kid you not!)

If the grid is down then nobody's going anywhere because there's no place to fuel up for, oh, a couple of hundred miles, and even those pumps wouldn't be working. Ten driving hours from the nearest large city, all uphill and through steep mountain terrain would 86 most people, I should think. It's tough enough on city dwellers just trying to breathe in the mountains, let alone mount an assault. It takes three months for the average body to make enough hemoglobin to normalize at 8,000 above sea level.

I'm not saying that it couldn't happen; anything could, and we're aware of that, but I consider it decidely unlikly.

By the way, most people up here are native.
 

FarmerJohn

Has No Life - Lives on TB
Whatever "it" is that happens, it will be horrific to the preppers, too.

"It" will favor the preppers and the obsessive-compulsive types that have stashes of whatever: dental floss, toilet paper, matches, olive oil, ammo, firewood... or whatever that may be valuable in a severely-disrupted economy.
 

Racing22

Crew Chief
Demands - I expect them to demand relief and that others that are prepared "share". If those that have refuse to share they are "hoarding" stuff the DGI's want that will be "justification" for "redistribution". You've heard about "the greater good?"

Well, one thing the GI's will share willingly with the DGI's if they come knocking..... is all the "lead" they can carry.....
 

Beth

Membership Revoked
Whatever "it" is that happens, it will be horrific to the preppers, too.

"It" will favor the preppers and the obsessive-compulsive types that have stashes of whatever: dental floss, toilet paper, matches, olive oil, ammo, firewood... or whatever that may be valuable in a severely-disrupted economy.

Farmer John,

Hence the need for keeping your business your own. The many virtues of underground shelters and/or storage buildings has not been lost on most preppers. You store what you store in an invisible location - even firewood should be inaccessible to thieves.

Several enterprising friends have buried most of their long-term preps, and they check on them every five years or so. Thus far it seems to be a viable way to store obvious items, and Rubbermaid containers sealed in mylar and 6mm poly appear to do well in most climates, even here in the frozen north.

I don't want to shoot anyone, but I do believe in deterrence, and while I'll gladly feed a hungry soul, I will not let anyone endanger (hurt, maim, kill) my family. I'm still wrestling with the spiritual ramifications of what I know I'd do, and I'm praying that I won't have to....
 

Siskiyoumom

Veteran Member
The tactic of blowing up bridges may end up being a very poor choice for isolated communities.
Especially in our rural area where extended families do not all live on the same parcel of land and
must travel river roads and cross bridges to get to elders in the tribe.
If there is person power to man check points or intstall "gates" then the bridges can be of value to the
community at large.
No matter how isolated you feel you are, google your coordinates on g o o g l e earth or a simlair
mapping system.
You might be surprised to see how visible your community is on the net.
In our area we get a lot of hunters, fishermen and women, hikers, horse packers and assorted
government employees who have traveled in the mountains here.
Those folks know how to get here and if push comes to shove, we expect folks to
high tail it to the wilderness thinking they can live off the land and or raid.

"The best thing we have going for us, the Grace of God notwithstanding, is the skills we have and what's between our ears.

It can happen, MC. It happened to us."

We too are facing similair circumstances Beth.
Dear hubby has taken ill and we do not know yet if it is cancer or gluten allergy.
So we will be revamping our long term food storage.
Reworking out the budget and trying to get a hold of our finances in a more
proactive manner.
 

Beth

Membership Revoked
The tactic of blowing up bridges may end up being a very poor choice for isolated communities.
Especially in our rural area where extended families do not all live on the same parcel of land and
must travel river roads and cross bridges to get to elders in the tribe.
If there is person power to man check points or intstall "gates" then the bridges can be of value to the
community at large.
No matter how isolated you feel you are, google your coordinates on g o o g l e earth or a simlair
mapping system.
You might be surprised to see how visible your community is on the net.
In our area we get a lot of hunters, fishermen and women, hikers, horse packers and assorted
government employees who have traveled in the mountains here.
Those folks know how to get here and if push comes to shove, we expect folks to
high tail it to the wilderness thinking they can live off the land and or raid.

"The best thing we have going for us, the Grace of God notwithstanding, is the skills we have and what's between our ears.

It can happen, MC. It happened to us."

We too are facing similar circumstances Beth.
Dear hubby has taken ill and we do not know yet if it is cancer or gluten allergy.
So we will be revamping our long term food storage.
Reworking out the budget and trying to get a hold of our finances in a more
proactive manner.

I'm so sorry about your husband, Sis; I do hope it turns out to be non life-threatening. When will you know? Please do keep me (us) updated? I'll be keeping you and yours in my prayers. Cancer needn't be a death sentence nowadays. Several members on this forum have had it, and I have an aunt who's been living with breast cancer for somewhere around thirty years. Personally, I have (count 'em) three 'life-threatening' disorders, and one of them I've had all my life (56 years) and I'm still here, praise GOD! We just never know what awaits us, so I gratefully take one moment at a time and leave the rest up to God to decide. Every breath we draw is only by His Grace in any case, so I don't concern myself with matters beyond my purview.

About blowing up the bridge, yes I know, but in our case it would be the best thing to do, or that's the general consensus.

It's easy to find anywhere on Earth via a satellite map, but accessing it on foot is quite another matter. We're not important or big enough to entice bounty hunters. There are many other places around that they're bound to head for first. Put bluntly, apart from well-concealed preps, we have nothing worth stealing.

Most of the realities of sheltering in place don't apply to DH and I anymore, as I explained earlier, and I've no idea what we'll do, but I'm not worried about it. God has sent us on a mission, which is wonderful, and I'm going to live in love and gratitude every day until He calls me home. It's the only sensible way to live life, as I see it. If you'd like to know more about what we're doing, you can check out this link.

Most of us don't like change, but it can be a great adventure if you let it. As with most situations in life, our attitude dictates and determines how we feel, and happily, we are in control of that! ;)

Much love to you and your DH,

Beth.
 

KKC

Veteran Member
To a degree I find a lot of this difficult to believe. Russia collapsed and I never heard of these kinds of things happening then. Why would now be different? I’m sure there’ll be exceptions but not widespread like everyone is claiming. To be perfectly honest I don’t think ANYONE can state what will ACTUALLY happen. I think it’ll be a combination of good, some bad and everything in between. But to sit here and proclaim that ALL will witness ONLY the most horrific of things is naive IMO.
 

Kathy in FL

Administrator
_______________
Any location that gets any number of people that tops and then goes over the number of people their infrastructure can handle ... whether that is food, water, road, medical, shelter, security, etc. ... will be at risk. Little burgs that have at most 50 year round souls are just as at risk as the inner cities once infrastructure has been compromised; the difference only lies in how many does it take to crash the infrastructure?

And "the crash" will also depend on how long and/or deep said crash is and how quickly it happens. It it is what we have going on right now ... the long, slow slide ... then it isn't the people at the bottom who are going to suffer to any greater extent than they are currently suffering. Who will really get kicked in the teeth are those that have their "wealth" redistributed whether that means their currency based wealth or their hard goods wealth (food, shelter, land, etc.).

Don't become overconfident because you are "prepped" because assumptions have a bad way of turning around and biting painfully.
 

BigFootsCousin

Molon Labe!
Well, one thing the GI's will share willingly with the DGI's if they come knocking..... is all the "lead" they can carry.....

Yep......and to think, all of that practise at long-range targets will definately come in handy! 500 yards and going for more! Bring on the zombie herds! ;)

BFC
 

naturallysweet

Has No Life - Lives on TB
Yeah, things will be bad, but this:

"The (NP) and those around them will likely develop all sorts of infective skin rashes from the lack of insight of storing up toilet paper. Imagine the smell for a moment."

is total crap (pardon the pun). Living in India, I can tell you that even wealthy folks here often don't use toilet paper, or use it only on rare occasions. Nearly everyone here grew up having to wash themselves after defecating, and still know how, and no one has "infective skin rashes" of any kind as a result. It's different, but not nearly the horror most think it is. Shit wipes off, to quote Stephen King, and it washes off even easier, especially with proper soap (though just water will work). Most folks time things so they end up taking their daily shower/bath right after defecating, which solves the problem of cleaning up. Yes, you have to be a little more careful, but I've been here two years now, and haven't once gotten sick from not having toilet paper (eating street food on the other hand...). And, my hand doesn't smell at all, nor is it unclean. In a SHTF situation, folks will quickly figure out how to use a couple cups of water to wash themselves clean, and that will be the end of the need for toilet paper.

ETA: recent studies show that using toilet paper actually causes more problems than it solves. Folks in The West have pretty much settled on the least effective, most damaging way to defecate and clean up afterwards.

Yes, but you were around people who had been raised without what we consider to be modern conveniences. Most people in the city feel lost if their cell phone is without service. Their idea of ruffing it would include a campground with a paved driveway, a firepit already dug with charcoal briquets to cook their store bought meals. Afterwards they have access to hot and cold running water and and a modern toilet facility.

When the restrooms stop working, they are still going to use them until they are totally filled with feces. Then they are going to go everywhere, including near the closest running water. Which they will drink from, without knowing how to properly clean it to make it safe for drinking. In this scenario, water born illnesses would kill millions.
 

Beelbill

Inactive
When Russia collapsed, it didn't really collapse. The government just closed their offices. If that happened in the US, things would be better, not worse. When we talk about TSHTF, it means something like a nuke or natural disaster or something that causes everything to come to a halt. Big difference. Also, even in India, there are big cities and more people than easily accessible resources. The people in the more rural areas might be better off initially, but when all the city people descend on them like locusts, they will face many of the same problems we in the west will face.
 

Easy G

Senior Member
I have a different thought on the distance from the cities thing. I don't think you need to be that far out to improve your odds dramatically. If it well & truly hits the fan, no water & no gas, For the first couple days, the sheeple will not be thinking lets go a reaving in the countryside. They will be wasting days maybe even a week hoping for rescue or, even better, emergency over. All that time, They will be using up water & gas & food that will not be there for them to use to go out in search of better prepared people.

IMO, when they finally realize they want to try to take from their country cousins, they will not have the gas, the food and most importantly, the water to get them there & back again. If you are rural & it hits the fan, I think if you batten down the hatches and can sit tight for a month or more, your odds will go up dramatically.
 

Straycat

Veteran Member
It's a good article, but the author is preaching to the choir. The DGIs will disregard any amount of logic or explanations for one simple reason: They simply don't believe anything bad will happen to them. Denial is a coping mechanism and it can be a very strong one. The more proof you show them that bad things CAN happen, the more strongly they'll cling to their denial.

I believe this is because a good 90% of DGIs just don't have the mental or emotional constitution to handle the stress of even thinking about catastrophe or taking responsibility for themselves. It's too much. A very small percentage would be able to adapt to an actual crisis in any meaningful way.

If you have DGIs in your circle, you can't just hope that they'll "come around" in a real crisis. You better figure out ahead of time how you'll deal with them. You won't have the luxury of giving people the benefit of the doubt and seeing if it works out.
 

BigFootsCousin

Molon Labe!
And what happens if the zombie hoardes include pregnant women and small children?

War booty?

Or, I could be more of a smart-ass and just point out the obvious..........like, maybe they shouldn't TRESPASS, especially when they see/smell the rotting corpses and the signs all telling them to "Do NOT trespass", violators will be shot, survivors will be shot again.

Are all people this clueless?

BFC
 

Dex

Constitutional Patriot
It won't be good for anyone but those who are completely dependent on the grid will be lost and blind. The opportunist entitled will be busy looting the cities for at least a few days before they get around to driving out of the city and the only ones that will have the resources to actually drive out of the city for the purpose of pillaging will be few at that point.

What you have to worry about is the few that decide to loot the suburbs and rural areas first instead of sticking around for the looting in the city, it won't be many but they will be somewhat organized somewhat more dangerous but nothing that we can't handle because they are the few that we are prepping against initially, if you are smart. By the time that they ghetto herd makes their way to the outer loops they will be so beat up from fighting each other and carrying stolen electronics they won't be much of a threat. They won't have any serious preps but rather be a bunch of rag-tag bands of hoodlums, possessing no intelligence to speak of but a whole lot of hubris and malice in their hearts which will make them weak and impatient against dug in suburbanites who are stocked up for a several weeks of siege and ready to pull the trigger on every dirt bag that crosses their line in the sand.

Your neighbors will probably be your worst enemy in the beginning, those who will come wearing desperate faces at first but might return when they think you are weak, you will be left with no choice but to treat them the same way you would treat the zombies. It will be way harder to pull the trigger on you neighbor whom you might have had BBQs with who might have small children and who will use every trick in the book to insinuate their way into your circle because they failed to see the writing on the wall or those who might have been paying too much to your daily routine and prepping. The toughest thing you will be have to do is give them a pack of jerky, a jug of water and a roll of TP and tell them that they will be shot on sight if they try to come back and try to manipulate you.

At some point the lines WILL be black and white, no gray area, only survival of you and yours. You will have to make hard decisions, harder than you have ever known, to protect your family.

If you are lucky there will be those in your neighborhood that you can make alliances with who aren't looking for a handout, but that will be few and far between, there are not yet enough of us, there are far too many of them.
 
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