Misc/Chat Greenhouses and Hoophouses as a Prep Item

[packyderms_wife]

Well with two major volcanoes about to go full tilt in the Pacific (Bali and Vanuatu) it's time to consider we may possibly end up with experiencing a "year without a summer"

So it may be time to start thinking about tunnel houses, greenhouses, hydroponics in the basement, so on and so forth.

This is a general discussion thread on ways to do this inexpensively, materials, why would you want to do this in your basement, garage, etc. kinda thread.

If you post videos please tell us a bit about the video and the run time.

 

[packyderms_wife]

This is what Orion Commander is thinking of putting out on our driveway, it'd be between the house and the garage and protected on the west side by the neighbors house
https://www.growerssolution.com/pag...HaKgCkqAuLjPYGK7FZ-J1-uTNfzV_ONFnwaAiIu8P8HAQ

 

[packyderms_wife]

this one is $599 and would our space perfectly.

Our biggest issue would be keeping it warm in our bitter Iowa winters.






https://www.growerssolution.com/PROD/affordable-hobby-greenhouse/hobbygreenhouse

 

[duchess47]

I have two very inexpensive greenhouses from Harbor Freight. I have wired them for electricity and have shades over the top of them for summer use. For winter, I use a very inexpensive heater <$40 with a thermostat that turns on and off as needed. I have a grow light for overcast days which are very few here that throws off a tremendous amount of heat.

The greenhouses did have to be modified to handle our winds here which get up to 80mph. They are both set on 4X4's anchored to the ground and the plastic paneling is put up with self tapping screws instead of the clips provided. Upkeep is minimal.

 

[packyderms_wife]

I have two very inexpensive greenhouses from Harbor Freight. I have wired them for electricity and have shades over the top of them for summer use. For winter, I use a very inexpensive heater <$40 with a thermostat that turns on and off as needed. I have a grow light for overcast days which are very few here that throws off a tremendous amount of heat.

The greenhouses did have to be modified to handle our winds here which get up to 80mph. They are both set on 4X4's anchored to the ground and the plastic paneling is put up with self tapping screws instead of the clips provided. Upkeep is minimal.

What did you think of the quality of the frame and the plastic?

 

[duchess47]

Mine - very good. It's waffle type design plastic panels, stands up well to wind, heat and cold.

The one you show in your picture would never work here, I don't know about where you live. It would not stand up to our wind and sun, wouldn't provide much protection or insulation thru our winters.

 

[duchess47]

This is the one that I have. Well, I have two of them. Probably about 10 years old now.

https://www.harborfreight.com/6-ft-x-8-ft-greenhouse-63354.html

 

[packyderms_wife]

This is the one that I have. Well, I have two of them. Probably about 10 years old now.

https://www.harborfreight.com/6-ft-x-8-ft-greenhouse-63354.html

hmmm there's a harbor freight in Des Moines, wonder if they keep these in stock in the stores?

 

[duchess47]

This time of year, probably. They are running sales on them out here right now. They have a multitude of sizes but with just the two of us I have only used one for the past 3-4 years. I do start seeds for all the kids but don't plant a large garden myself anymore.

 

[Vicki]

Check Craigslist Packy. That's where I got mine and it was a great deal. I paid $800 for a three year old Gothic Arch with polycarbonate ends, double doors, etc. The package went for a little over $4,000 new. Of course we had to tear it down and rebuild it but it was worth it. I've had it four years now and every year I've added more soil, plants and heat and water sources.

The only thing I wish I could do and may still is add a solarium/greenhouse to the back of my house. That would be so nice.

 

[duchess47]

The way mine is set up, from last year.

 

[Vicki]

Great job Dutchess. I bet it is easier to heat too. I love to see the pictures and wish more people would join in.

 

[duchess47]

Fortunately I have almost 360 days of sun here and the small greenhouse heats up rapidly with just the sun. I tried painted barrels of water but it didn't help. My little heater keeps it at 65+ thru the night just fine. If I close the doors early enough in the afternoon it holds heat for quite awhile.

I had my citrus trees (babies) and my banana tree in the greenhouse all summer. The temps hit low 30's finally and the greenhouse temp dropped to mid 40's last week without the heater so I brought them in the house. It is empty now but I have the door open about 4" so the feral cats can go in and it stays about 40 at night. We haven't hit brutal cold yet though.

We are hoping to move here in the next few months and I'll buy another one for my new place.

 

[Vicki]

I'm so glad you mentioned citrus Dutchess. I started two lemon trees from seed this spring and they are about 2 to 3 feet tall now and in the greenhouse. Tomorrow night it's supposed to drop to 40 here so I think bringing them in the house is a must. I wish we had more sun. Living right next to the lake makes for quite a bit of cloud cover but it also allows me to grow more food then areas just south of me. I had relatives in Nevada for over 40 years but the last of them just moved back to upstate NY a couple of years ago. I miss being able to go out to visit. They were in Reno.

 

[duchess47]

I'm just about 50 miles south of Reno so you probably have a good idea what my weather is like. My orange tree blossomed this summer (smells so good) and has one orange but it's not even as big as a ping pong ball. At that rate, it will be three years before it's big enough to eat. Nothing from the lime and lemon but they are hanging in and look healthy. The banana tree is going to end up having to find a new home I'm afraid - it's growing by leaps and bounds and dwarf means something different to the nursery than it does to me apparently.

 

[Old Gray Mare]

Tucked away and buried behind the junk are sliding glass doors. It is amazing what some people will throw out! If nit comes to tuck I plan on using them for cold frames. I have seen some at the home of an Amish friend. They attached it to a frame (I think wooden) with heavy hinges and can raise it with a chain that can be fastened to a catch to keep it safely open. Well it's a plan. Always good to have a plan.

 

[summerthyme]

Look into the book called Four Season Harvest by Elliot Coleman. He doesn't try to keep stuff *growing * through the dark winter months in Maine (when you get too far North... Vicki and I certainly are... The problem doesn't tend to be heat as much as light). But he uses cold frames inside an unheated (except by the sun) greenhouse to keep grrens snd other cold hardy crops ready to harvest all winter long.

Summerthyme

 

[packyderms_wife]

Look into the book called Four Season Harvest by Elliot Coleman. He doesn't try to keep stuff *growing * through the dark winter months in Maine (when you get too far North... Vicki and I certainly are... The problem doesn't tend to be heat as much as light). But he uses cold frames inside an unheated (except by the sun) greenhouse to keep grrens snd other cold hardy crops ready to harvest all winter long.

Summerthyme

That's an excellent idea!

 

[packyderms_wife]

I have one raised bed that OC has built a hoop house lid for, I need him to install the vent, that opens when it's above 70F, and then we can attach the plastic to the lid and use this for spinach and kale for this winter.

 

[packyderms_wife]

Well I told OC about summerthymes comment of putting a cold frame in a green house. He reminded me we have my old vending tent frame and to source some green house plastic for it and I can put it up around on of my raised beds (the one that has the hoop house lid), if the need should arise. Gotta say I love him and his creative work arounds!

 

[Stanb999]

I will make a more detailed post in the AM.. But much is possible in very small greenhouses and high tunnels. I have several home made and large commercial ones.

I would caution anyone in snow belts to avoid completly any design made with a single arched hoop. That doesnt have a peaked roof. It will collapse under all but the tiniest snow loads. Even the commercial greenhouse needs careful attention if a large snow event happens. Here is a picture of me shoveling during the blizzard last March. Im wearing snowshoes and about 5 foot from the ground.

 

[Stanb999]

Well I told OC about summerthymes comment of putting a cold frame in a green house. He reminded me we have my old vending tent frame and to source some green house plastic for it and I can put it up around on of my raised beds (the one that has the hoop house lid), if the need should arise. Gotta say I love him and his creative work arounds!

You can use floating row cover. Its very inexpensive and works well. It protected our zuccini from frost at 25f... here is a picture from last spring. We use middle weight and support it with 3/4 inch poly pipe hoops. We covered it every night, and uncover every morning. On extra cold nights we will put 2 layers of the covers. We had zuccini for market june 15th 2 weeks after our last frost date without heating.

 

[packyderms_wife]

You can use floating row cover. Its very inexpensive and works well. It protected our zuccini from frost at 25f... here is a picture from last spring. We use middle weight and support it with 3/4 inch poly pipe hoops. We covered it every night, and uncover every morning. On extra cold nights we will put 2 layers of the covers. We had zuccini for market june 15th 2 weeks after our last frost date without heating.

How do you attach it to the pipes?

 

[Stanb999]

Look into the book called Four Season Harvest by Elliot Coleman. He doesn't try to keep stuff *growing * through the dark winter months in Maine (when you get too far North... Vicki and I certainly are... The problem doesn't tend to be heat as much as light). But he uses cold frames inside an unheated (except by the sun) greenhouse to keep grrens snd other cold hardy crops ready to harvest all winter long.

Summerthyme

Here is a youtube of elliot from last year. Its adout an hour long.

https://youtu.be/Xm6khNRIGhE

 

[straightstreet]

This is the one that I have. Well, I have two of them. Probably about 10 years old now.

https://www.harborfreight.com/6-ft-x-8-ft-greenhouse-63354.html

We have this one from harbor freight also. A tip: when putting it together, use clear caulk when installing the panels. Just go all the way around all 4 sides. They will stay put in strong winds. DH built me 2 raised beds about 3 foot high along each of the longest sides. He used insulated panels to line the sides then filled with fertilized soil, a heat tape strip the length of each box, then a top layer of soil. I walk right up the center and harvest from each side.

 

[Vicki]

I'm just about 50 miles south of Reno so you probably have a good idea what my weather is like. My orange tree blossomed this summer (smells so good) and has one orange but it's not even as big as a ping pong ball. At that rate, it will be three years before it's big enough to eat.

I can very well relate to that. Years ago I bought a lemon tree and had it in my house for a few years. It didn't seem to get very big but it did get 1 little lemon on it. lol The poor thing died one winter and I never tried growing one again until this spring while using a lemon I thought, what the heck, put the seeds in my aloe plant and away the went. One is about 2 1/2 feet and looking really good and the other about half that size but hanging in there. I guess we'll see how it does.

Btw, I didn't have to bring them in yet. Even though it hit 40 degrees last evening, the greenhouse stayed at 57 with no heat. The forcast is for 39 degrees tonight and then back up to 70 tomorrow. Crazy swings these days.

 

[packyderms_wife]

Here is a youtube of elliot from last year. Its adout an hour long.

https://youtu.be/Xm6khNRIGhE

Thank you, OC and I will watch it later.

 

[Vicki]

Look into the book called Four Season Harvest by Elliot Coleman. He doesn't try to keep stuff *growing * through the dark winter months in Maine (when you get too far North... Vicki and I certainly are... The problem doesn't tend to be heat as much as light). But he uses cold frames inside an unheated (except by the sun) greenhouse to keep grrens snd other cold hardy crops ready to harvest all winter long.

Summerthyme

I put a large raised bed in the center of my greenhouse with row cover in mind. A row cover over the whole thing really helps. I also pack the plants in there come winter as I think (I know, not scientific...lol) that the plants help keep each other warm. The side raised bed I made with a lip on the backside with pallets and I have used glass over it come winter but I cut polycarbonate to drop over it in place of the glass. Much easier to lift and I don't have to worry about broken glass or paint chips.

This year I have suspended the long metal bars over the center bed with chains and I can raise it or lower it to whatever height I need. Right now I have hanging baskets on it and I'm thinking I'm going to suspend grow lights from it as well. Then I can throw plastic over the whole thing for added insulation. I'll let ya know how it works out.

 

[Vicki]

Well I told OC about summerthymes comment of putting a cold frame in a green house. He reminded me we have my old vending tent frame and to source some green house plastic for it and I can put it up around on of my raised beds (the one that has the hoop house lid), if the need should arise. Gotta say I love him and his creative work arounds!

That's a good idea. I would consider straw around the outside for additional insulation. I started with straw then added wood chips . I ended up with a few moles until the snake came. Now I have a few baby snakes around.

 

[Stanb999]

How do you attach it to the pipes?

We used office clips to hold the ends.. The cheap ones. We used clothes pins to tie it back during the day.

You can just get a cover a little larger and just drape it over too. We left it attached so the plants didnt get sun scald in the bright spring sun.

 

[packyderms_wife]

That's a good idea. I would consider straw around the outside for additional insulation. I started with straw then added wood chips . I ended up with a few moles until the snake came. Now I have a few baby snakes around.

If I can source some straw I'll do that!

 

[duchess47]

We have this one from harbor freight also. A tip: when putting it together, use clear caulk when installing the panels. Just go all the way around all 4 sides. They will stay put in strong winds. DH built me 2 raised beds about 3 foot high along each of the longest sides. He used insulated panels to line the sides then filled with fertilized soil, a heat tape strip the length of each box, then a top layer of soil. I walk right up the center and harvest from each side.

Thank you for that tip. I'll have hubby try it on the next one I put up.

 

[duchess47]

Btw, I didn't have to bring them in yet. Even though it hit 40 degrees last evening, the greenhouse stayed at 57 with no heat. The forcast is for 39 degrees tonight and then back up to 70 tomorrow. Crazy swings these days.

Your greenhouse is doing really well. Our weather here is crazy too. Wood stove at night and swamp cooler on during the day.

 

[Stanb999]

Here is a post I made on a different forum 7 years ago... It gives a simple break down of how I made my first small hoop house. The great thing about this design is it's very cheap to build, takes wind and heavy snow loads without issue. Has prove to be an all around winner. If you look close in the snowy image above you can see this little greenhouse. The snow has it buried half way up the back window on the level... We got 36" in less than 24 hours and I didn't have to shovel it or anything. The only real change I made was I no longer use the roll up side. It allowed insect pests to simply walk in. So now I leave the door open. Keeps the pests down a bit.




I'm building a hoop house/ poly tunnel. The reasons and benefits are many. For me the main reason is moving part of my growing environment 500 miles south(It is claimed that growing conditions can be moderated that much. We will see). I should get vine ripe tomatoes. Peppers that grow amazing. Maybe just maybe water melon. I have included prices so you can get an idea if it's worth it for you.

The big hurdle was watering. The hoop house will need all the water for it pumped to it. Carrying it was thought of but 100-200 gallons a week for most of the year put this out of the question. A state road is in between it and the house. So I had to get an alternative to house water. I have a pond. It's down hill 50ft and 500 ft away. I have worked out a solar pumping system for it that will give enough water easily. It wasn't cheap, well it was ok at approx 400 bucks with 1/4 of that being pipe.

The hoop house will be 19'x12' for a total of 42' of 4 foot wide grow bed. It's made of 1 1/2" conduit. I chose conduit due to it's natural UV rating and rigid nature. I was concerned with snow loads but believe i have created it in such a way that it won't be an issue. I used two 10 foot lengths with a 90 degree sweep at the top. Each hoop cost 12 bucks or so. I needed 6. You will also need 2 for the ridge purloin. If you get 15 at the depot, they give a discount... 2 are free so get 15. The cover plastic is 4 year 6 mil greenhouse poly. At a cost of 100 bucks for 25 x 36. You will need 4 2x6x10' for the side boards, 1 2x6x12' and one 2x6x10 and a dozen 2x4x8 for the hoop house ends. Cost is maybe 50-60 bucks. For hardware I got a box of each 3 1/3 x 1/4" bolts, 1/4" nuts, flat washers. 20 bucks. 12 1/12" conduit 2 hole clamps. They were 50 cants a piece. A box of 2 1/2" deck screws. To anchor it to the ground I used standard solid 6' T posts cut in thirds(24") I had them so they cost nothing but they are 6 bucks each you would need 4. These worked really well because the pipes just fit over. Just. So the pipes were locked in place before the wood was added. You could use rebar, metal pipe or what ever else you have laying around. Just make sure it is the right length and strong enough to take the pressure.

To build you lay out your corners. Make sure it's square. Diagonal measurements. The use string to set the rest of the posts. Set your posts strait up and down, and 12" in. Glue your pipes together and let them sit a while. You will be putting a lot of force on them to get them on the anchor points. To set the hoops. Two people are preferred. Get it on there. All the way down. Yes it's hard. It's a pain. Especially if you used the T posts and their tight fit. Cut the side boards to length use the left over to join the pieces together. Attach them to the hoops with the clamps with the nut and bolts.

p.s. I don't wish to give the corporate run website any traffic... But if you ask I will send you a link in a PM.

 

[Stanb999]

The above images should give you a good idea on how I built it. To attach the plastic I used furring strips. It worked well enough. Now I will show you what we managed to winter harvest with zero added heat.

The photos are of outside, inside under the row cover. Finally what we harvested later in the day after the hoop warmed above freezing. The night before this harvest the temp outside was 19F... The last photo is of a Jan. 6th harvest. Lots of Carrots and Radishes. The lettuce variety is Black seeded Simpson, It did really well dealing with the cold.

 

[Stanb999]

#1 As with most things bigger is better. It stays warmer due to larger area of warm ground.
#2Wider is better than longer. It's easier to cool. Never go more than 2x longer the width with natural ventilation. So 12x20 is good. 12x30 isn't without fans or roof venting.
Plus you always have frost for the first few feet next to the walls without lots of effort. In this house the ground freezes in about 2 feet in the average winter. So my growing space is just 2 feet wide. But if it was narrower say just 8 feet. I wouldn't have any room at all.
#3 Make sure you have a reliable source of water available for irrigation. Tho you will not have to water in deep winter.



Questions?

 

[Stanb999]

Harvesting... The vegetable must be fully thawed and warmed prior to harvest. If you harvest frozen plants they will be wilted. These are for plants under a single layer of 19 weight row cover. The temp listed is the temp in the greenhouse; not outside.


So how cold is too cold? Single digits leave everything wilted and black. If you had the inclination you could double or triple cover and the hardiest plants would make it thru. But these are temps of deep winter and no Joke.

The most cold hardy I found was Lettuce. It can be expected to survive 10F. Lettuce will grow on the warmer days when the nights are in the upper 20's but will take several days to recover and return to growth if the temps dip into the teens. Prolonged temps in the teens will make it have cell damage and slight texture issues. But will be fine tasting and sweet. It's at least as good as the California imports.

15F Radishes and carrots will be fine for harvest, The tops will be gone. They will not grow and should be harvested before a real warm up or they will go to seed.

20F Cabbage will be fine tasting and sweet.

25F The rest of the Brassicas, turnips, rutabagas, beets and chard, and Chinese greens.

27F All frost hardy veggies will recover daily and continue to grow. Tho several days of cold will stunt the growth.

38F Solicitous are frost sensitive crops and will be stunted but will survive. (tomatoes, peppers, eggplant, ect.)

42F Cucurbit are very cold sensitive and will suffer stunting if the temps drop this low but will survive. (squash, zucchini, pumpkin)

55F Rapid growth for all garden plants is possible in a greenhouse. Temperature in not a significant limiting factor.


One thing to realize is relative humidity has a large bearing on the low temperature inside the greenhouse. Keep things moist if possible. If cold weather is in the forecast water the plants well and cover. The added water contains a lot of latent heat. A simple hose down can raise the temp of a green house well above the danger zone.

 

[packyderms_wife]

Harvesting... The vegetable must be fully thawed and warmed prior to harvest. If you harvest frozen plants they will be wilted. These are for plants under a single layer of 19 weight row cover. The temp listed is the temp in the greenhouse; not outside.


So how cold is too cold? Single digits leave everything wilted and black. If you had the inclination you could double or triple cover and the hardiest plants would make it thru. But these are temps of deep winter and no Joke.

The most cold hardy I found was Lettuce. It can be expected to survive 10F. Lettuce will grow on the warmer days when the nights are in the upper 20's but will take several days to recover and return to growth if the temps dip into the teens. Prolonged temps in the teens will make it have cell damage and slight texture issues. But will be fine tasting and sweet. It's at least as good as the California imports.

15F Radishes and carrots will be fine for harvest, The tops will be gone. They will not grow and should be harvested before a real warm up or they will go to seed.

20F Cabbage will be fine tasting and sweet.

25F The rest of the Brassicas, turnips, rutabagas, beets and chard, and Chinese greens.

27F All frost hardy veggies will recover daily and continue to grow. Tho several days of cold will stunt the growth.

38F Solicitous are frost sensitive crops and will be stunted but will survive. (tomatoes, peppers, eggplant, ect.)

42F Cucurbit are very cold sensitive and will suffer stunting if the temps drop this low but will survive. (squash, zucchini, pumpkin)

55F Rapid growth for all garden plants is possible in a greenhouse. Temperature in not a significant limiting factor.


One thing to realize is relative humidity has a large bearing on the low temperature inside the greenhouse. Keep things moist if possible. If cold weather is in the forecast water the plants well and cover. The added water contains a lot of latent heat. A simple hose down can raise the temp of a green house well above the danger zone.

Thank you Stan, I need to copy this to a word document and print it out!

 

[Vicki]

Tucked away and buried behind the junk are sliding glass doors. It is amazing what some people will throw out! If nit comes to tuck I plan on using them for cold frames. I have seen some at the home of an Amish friend. They attached it to a frame (I think wooden) with heavy hinges and can raise it with a chain that can be fastened to a catch to keep it safely open. Well it's a plan. Always good to have a plan.

I saved some pictures of cold frames and maybe they will help give you some ideas OGM. Check these out...

 

[Vicki]

Here is a post I made on a different forum 7 years ago... It gives a simple break down of how I made my first small hoop house. The great thing about this design is it's very cheap to build, takes wind and heavy snow loads without issue. Has prove to be an all around winner..

Interesting design Stan as that is almost exactly the same as what I had saved many years ago in what I wanted to build. Funny, here's the picture I kept...