WAR Gov/Mil- Remember the big thread on the OV-10?...We've been using them on IS

Housecarl

On TB every waking moment
Remember the big thread on the OV-10?.....

For links see article source.....
Posted for fair use.....
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...using-these-antique-planes-to-fight-isis.html

THROWBACK
03.08.16 9:01 PM ET

Why Is America Using These Antique Planes to Fight ISIS?

The U.S. military is testing a dependable, rugged little vintage bomber as it battles elusive ISIS militants in Syria and Iraq.

David Axe

War was just an experiment for two of the U.S. military’s oldest and most unusual warplanes. A pair of OV-10 Broncos—small, Vietnam War-vintage, propeller-driven attack planes—recently spent three months flying top cover for ground troops battling ISIS militants in the Middle East.

The OV-10s’ deployment is one of the latest examples of a remarkable phenomenon. The United States—and, to a lesser extent, Russia—has seized the opportunity afforded it by the aerial free-for-all over Iraq and Syria and other war zones to conduct live combat trials with new and upgraded warplanes, testing the aircraft in potentially deadly conditions before committing to expensive manufacturing programs.

That’s right. America’s aerial bombing campaigns are also laboratories for the military and the arms industry. After all, how better to pinpoint an experimental warplane’s strengths and weaknesses than to send it into an actual war?

The twin-engine Broncos—each flown by a pair of naval aviators—completed 134 sorties, including 120 combat missions, over a span of 82 days beginning in May 2015 or shortly thereafter, according to U.S. Central Command, which oversees America’s wars in the Middle East and Afghanistan.

Central Command would not say exactly where the OV-10s were based or where they attacked, but did specify that the diminutive attack planes with their distinctive twin tail booms flew in support of Operation Inherent Resolve, the U.S.-led international campaign against ISIS in Iraq and Syria. The Pentagon has deployed warplanes to Turkey, Kuwait, Qatar, Jordan, and the United Arab Emirates, among other countries.

There are plenty of clues as to what exactly the Broncos were doing. For one, the Pentagon’s reluctance to provide many details about the OV-10s’ overseas missions implies that the planes were working in close conjunction with Special Operations Forces. In all likelihood, the tiny attackers acted as a kind of quick-reacting 9-1-1 force for special operators, taking off quickly at the commandos’ request and flying low to hit elusive militants with guns and rockets, all before the fleet-flooted jihadis could slip away.

The military’s goal was “to determine if properly employed turbo-prop driven aircraft… would increase synergy and improve the coordination between the aircrew and ground commander,” Air Force Capt. P. Bryant Davis, a Central Command spokesman, told The Daily Beast.

Davis said that the military also wanted to know if Broncos or similiar planes could take over for jet fighters such as F-15s and F/A-18s, which conduct most of America’s airstrikes in the Middle East but are much more expensive to buy and operate than a propeller-driven plane like the OV-10. An F-15 can cost as much as $40,000 per flight-hour just for fuel and maintenance. By contrast, a Bronco can cost as little as $1,000 for an hour of flying.

Indeed, that was the whole point of the OV-10 when North American Aviation, now part of Boeing, developed the Bronco way back in the 1960s. The Pentagon wanted a small, cheap attack plane that could take off from rough airstrips close to the fighting. By sticking close to the front lines, the tiny planes would always be available to support ground troops trying to root out insurgent forces.

The Bronco turned out to be just the thing the military needed. The Air Force, Navy, and Marine Corps deployed hundreds of OV-10s in Vietnam, where the tiny planes proved rugged, reliable, and deadly to the enemy. After Vietnam, the Navy retired its Broncos and the Air Force swapped its own copies for jet-powered A-10s, but the Marines hung onto the dependable little bombers and even flew them from small Navy aircraft carriers before finally retiring them in the mid-1990s.

Foreign air forces and civilian and paramilitary operators quickly snatched up the decommissioned Broncos. They proved popular with firefighting agencies. The Philippines deployed OV-10s to devastating effect in its counterinsurgency campaign against Islamic militants. The U.S. State Department sent Broncos to Colombia to support the War on Drugs. NASA used them for airborne tests.

Thirty years after Vietnam, the Pentagon again found itself fighting elusive insurgents in Afghanistan, Iraq and other war zones. It again turned to the OV-10 for help. In 2011, Central Command and Special Operations Command borrowed two former Marine Corps Broncos—from NASA or the State Department, apparently—and fitted them with new radios and weapons.

The Defense Department slipped $20 million into its 2012 budget to pay for the two OV-10s to deploy overseas—part of a wider military experiment with smaller, cheaper warplanes.

There was certainly precedent for the experiment going back a decade or more. During the 1991 Gulf War, the Air Force deployed a prototype E-8 radar plane to track Iraqi tanks across the desert. The Air Force’s high-flying Global Hawk spy drone was still just a prototype when the Air Force sent it overseas to spy on the Taliban and Al Qaeda in late 2001. Satisfied with both aircraft’s wartime trials, the military ultimately spent billions of dollars buying more of them.

Not to be outdone, in November 2015 Russia sent Tu-160 heavy bombers to strike targets in Syria—the giant bombers’ very first combat mission, and one that many observers assumed was really meant as a test of the planes’ combat capabilities in advance of a planned upgrade program.

Such combat experiments don’t always please everyone. When the Pentagon proposed to spend $20 million on the OV-10s, Sen. John McCain, the penny-pinching Arizona Republican who now chairs the Senate Armed Services Committee, objected. “There is no urgent operational requirement for this type of aircraft,” McCain said in a statement. Lawmakers subsequently canceled most of the Broncos’ funding, but the military eventually succeeded in paying for the trial by diverting money from other programs.

The OV-10s proved incredibly reliable in their 82 days of combat, completing 99 percent of the missions planned for them, according to Davis. Today the two OV-10s are sitting idle at a military airfield in North Carolina while testers crunch the numbers from their trial deployment. The assessment will “determine if this is a valid concept that would be effective in the current battlespace,” Central Command spokesman Davis said.

Lt. Gen. Bradley Heithold, the head of Air Force Special Operations Command, has already hinted that the military will stick with its current jet fighters for attack missions. At a February defense-industry conference in Orlando, Heithold said the OV-10s have “some utility,” but added that it’s too expensive to pay for training and supplies for a fleet of just two airplanes. Typically, the Pentagon buys hundreds of planes at a time, partly to achieve economies of scale.

Yes, the OV-10s are cheaper per plane and per flight than, say, an F-15. But for those savings to matter, the military would need to acquire hundreds of Broncos—not two. And that’s not something that planners are willing to do quite yet.

Which is not to say the tiny attackers’ combat trial was a failure. To know for sure whether the Vietnam-veteran OV-10s still had anything to offer, the military had to send them back to war. And lucky for testers, there’s still plenty of war going on.
 
Last edited:

OldArcher

Has No Life - Lives on TB
Saw them in Vietnam. Best bang for the buck, prior to the A-10... For insurgents, the OV-10A. For armor, the A-10... For down in the weeds, this is truly a dynamic duo... Thanks, Housecarl... They're a beautiful little plane that could still put a lotta hurt on the bad guys...

GBY&Y's, Sir...

Maranatha

OA
 

Housecarl

On TB every waking moment
This partially connects the dots with the reports of the US setting up airfields in Kurdish controlled areas of Syria.
 

AlfaMan

Has No Life - Lives on TB
Good to see the Broncos didn't entirely retire. That was an impressive little weapons system. General Dynamic's version of the Bronco was called the Cougar. I remember OV-10s at NAS Atlanta when I was young. Great little planes-they can even hold two stretchers if need be.
 

Nowski

Let's Go Brandon!
They also need to bring back the Douglas A-1 Skyraider.

Those birds could carry an incredible amount of ordnance,
and could stay in the air for a very long time.

Sometimes things are done right, and the Skyraider was one of those things.

The USA needs to return to the 1950's. That was the pinnacle of America,
in so many ways.

Regards to all,
Nowski
 

Dozdoats

On TB every waking moment
They also need to bring back the Douglas A-1 Skyraider.

DEFINITELY - a SPAD built with modern technology integrated would be an incredible weapon.

See http://www.skyraider.org/

A good number of former SOG folks I had the chance to get to know at work made it out of Southeast Asia alive thanks to close air support from SPADs.
 

Millwright

Knuckle Dragger
_______________
Interesting they are testing them at the same time the Super Tucanos are coming on line.

Iffin it were me, the extra turbine in the Bronco would be a huge bonus.


th
 

Housecarl

On TB every waking moment
Interesting they are testing them at the same time the Super Tucanos are coming on line.

Iffin it were me, the extra turbine in the Bronco would be a huge bonus.


th

Also the extra pilot/wso.

ETA: Some pictures and drawings of the OV-10 as envisioned in the COIN/"Brushfire War" mission....

231-2.jpg

http://aviadejavu.ru/Images6/JS/Janes66/2/231-2.jpg

The Charger was Convair's entry in the competition....
82b3e21bd3ba8584eb65ff4fed6e2422.jpg

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/82/b3/e2/82b3e21bd3ba8584eb65ff4fed6e2422.jpg

martysmall011.jpg

http://www.blackpony.org/martysmall011.jpg

usn_ov10a_blackponys_loaded_bronco_1.jpg

http://www.ov-10bronco.net/Pix/USN/usn_ov10a_blackponys_loaded_bronco_1.jpg

ov10heavyarmament.jpg

http://www.combatreform.org/ov10heavyarmament.jpg

phaf_ov_10cs.jpg

http://www.acig.info/UserFiles/File/FarEast/Philippines_since_1945/phaf_ov_10cs.jpg
Philippines AF

The proposed and updated OV-10X by Boeing (bought Rockwell)...

OV-10Xb.jpg.html

http://s223.photobucket.com/user/pearl21_2007/media/OV-10Xb.jpg.html

ov10bronco-proto.jpg

https://strikehold.files.wordpress.com/2009/10/ov10bronco-proto.jpg

usmc_yov10d_nogs_prototype_clark_1.jpg

http://www.ov-10bronco.net/Pix/USMC/usmc_yov10d_nogs_prototype_clark_1.jpg

Certainly a lot better than the modified Cessna Caravans Iraq has been using...

208.jpg

http://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/rbi-blogs/wp-content/blogs.dir/96/files/2013/11/208.jpg

0915_combat_caravan1.jpg

http://www.aopa.org/-/media/Images/AOPA/Home/News/All/2014/September/0915_combat_caravan1.jpg

Though the AT-802 (militarized crop duster) fits the bill a bit better than the Cessna.....

airtractorcoin.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-WFNBdimGBlE/Uoi_eJeRsdI/AAAAAAAAD8M/ht2s-D7Qh0U/s1600/airtractorcoin.jpg

5641a7c89c1f0.jpg

http://www.air-cosmos.com/upload/18/pics/2015/11/web/5641a7c89c1f0.jpg
 
Last edited:

2ndAmendican

Veteran Member
Excellent pics Carl, thanks for posting them. I know I've mentioned it before, but I was an engine overhaul mechanic in the Marine Corp back during Reagan's first term. MOS 6023. Stationed at New River MCAS. I loved working on those engines. Ahh, the good old days. LOL. Wish I was 18 again!
 

Dozdoats

On TB every waking moment
And the O in OV-10 is for OBSERVATION - the original concept was for a FAC (forward air control) platform, with a little bit more of a 'sting' than smoke marker rockets.

Thing is, since the Key West deal in 1947 the US Army has been forbidden to fly ARMED fixed wing aircraft - the then-new Air Force wanted that role all to itself.

Which is why the Army has used HELICOPTER gunships ever since.
 

Illini Warrior

Illini Warrior
with all the aircraft that the military has mothballed out in the west deserts - they had to borrow 2 Broncos from other gov agencies?
 

Publius

TB Fanatic
They are likely using them to move spacial culvert troops in and out of areas, these planes can carry up to 6 or 8 solders at a time and land on very ruff uneven ground.
Being able to move way faster than a helicopter makes them a much harder target to hit with ground fire. With the right modifications this plane would be the equivalent of the A-10 Warthog, but with the ability to move small loads or troops and as stated before, land and take off on fields most planes cannot.
 

Housecarl

On TB every waking moment
For links see article source.....
Posted for fair use.....
http://www.cnn.com/2016/03/11/politics/decades-old-planes-used-against-isis/index.html

Vietnam-era planes used against ISIS

By Ryan Browne, CNN
Updated 10:46 AM ET, Fri March 11, 2016 | Video Source: CNN

Video


(CNN)—A pair of nearly 50-year-old planes has been brought out of retirement to fight ISIS.

The Vietnam-era OV-10 Bronco turbo-propeller planes are part of an experiment to see if "light turbo-prop aircraft" are more effective in conducting counterinsurgency operations, a U.S. military representative told CNN this week.

During their deployment, the planes flew 120 combat missions against ISIS targets as part of the counter-ISIS coalition, said spokesman Capt. Bryant Davis of U.S. Central Command, which oversees military operations in the Middle East.

The Daily Beast first reported on the aircraft trials.

The OV-10s were operated by a two-person crew that consisted of a naval aviator and a Navy flight officer, according to the military.

The experiment aims to determine whether slower planes like the Bronco can better support ground troops battling insurgents than more technologically advanced and expensive counterparts such as the F-15 Eagle and F-35 Joint Strike Fighter jets.

The idea is that older aircraft can more cost-effectively fly close air support missions to help U.S. ground troops and pilots better see and attack low-tech insurgents.

Retired naval aviator Cmdr. Chris Harmer praised the aircraft's reactivation, telling CNN it was "an excellent idea."

Harmer, now the senior naval analyst at the Institute for the Study of War, called the OV-10 a "great plane to fly" and said it was likely that U.S. pilots fought over who got the chance to fly it in combat.

Harmer told CNN that the planes were a much more cost-effective alternative than jets like the F-15 or F-35, the latter of which is estimated to cost more than $150 million each.

Gallery

Using an F-35 to fly close air support against insurgents would be akin to "buying a brand new Rolls Royce to take the garbage to the dump," Harmer said.

Harmer estimated the cost of flying the more modern jets at $45,000 per hour of flight, while the older Bronco could cost less than $5,000 per flight.

The F-15 Eagle has a cruising speed of 570 mph, while the OV-10 has a cruising speed of 223 mph, according to an Air Force fact sheet.

While he acknowledged that the slower planes were vulnerable to other modern enemy aircraft and anti-aircraft missiles, he said the planes would be "extremely effective" in environments like Iraq and Afghanistan, where the terrorists have very limited anti-aircraft weapons.

More loitering time, better visibility


Paul Scharre, a former Army Ranger who served multiple tours in Iraq and Afghanistan, said these turboprop planes were the perfect middle ground between drones and more technologically advanced jets.

Scharre said that like drones, the OV-10 can loiter over the battlefield for hours, but unlike drones, the pilot has greater visibility of the battlefield and can see the location of enemy forces and attack them directly with machine guns and more bombs and missiles than a drone can carry.

More modern jets travel too fast to see events on the ground and become overly reliant on technology to target enemy combatants, he said. Additionally, these jets consume fuel at a much faster rate, which means they cannot fly over the battlefield for as long as their propeller-powered counterparts.

Scharre, a senior fellow at the Center for a New American Security, told CNN that 15 years of counterinsurgency missions had taken a toll on the technologically advanced and expensive American fighter jet fleet, saying a jet "can only have so many flying hours before it is worn out."

Both Scharre and Harmer said that these light attack aircraft would be in high demand by U.S. Special Operations forces because of their ability to provide persistent surveillance and close air support and target enemy forces up close without risking friendly fire casualties because the pilots are flying slow enough to visually distinguish between enemy and friendly forces.

However, Harmer and Scharre think that resistance from higher-ups in the military will hamper the drive to acquire these retro aircraft and that the Air Force is too focused on the more expensive F-35 to give much consideration to embracing a 50-year-old technology.

READ: B-52s to take on ISIS

The Central Command representative told CNN that the results of the initial experiment have been passed on to the Office of the Secretary of Defense Joint Requirements Oversight Council and that the information will help Pentagon "decision makers determine if this is a valid concept that would be effective in the current battlespace."

He added, "because the report is still a draft, it would be inappropriate and premature to provide details regarding any findings or potential recommendations."

"The American way of fighting since World War II has been to have superior technology. There has been a constant focus on leading technological advancement that is on cutting edge," Harmer said.

But Scharre is optimistic that these effective aircraft will find a niche within the military, possibly with Air Forces Special Operations acquiring some planes to support Special Operations forces.

The need for close air support in the fight against ISIS also helped convince the Air Force to reconsider plans to retire the A-10 Warthog, a 1970s-era ground attack jet.

READ: Defense chief says A-10s needed in ISIS fight

Scharre also thinks that these turboprop aircraft will prove ideal for equipping and arming U.S. partners that are fighting insurgencies and terrorists.

In January, the United States also provided Afghanistan with four turboprop A-29 Super Tucano planes, the Afghan air force's first fixed-wing combat aircraft.
 

Knoxville's Joker

Has No Life - Lives on TB
They are likely using them to move spacial culvert troops in and out of areas, these planes can carry up to 6 or 8 solders at a time and land on very ruff uneven ground.
Being able to move way faster than a helicopter makes them a much harder target to hit with ground fire. With the right modifications this plane would be the equivalent of the A-10 Warthog, but with the ability to move small loads or troops and as stated before, land and take off on fields most planes cannot.

In long talks with my late step father, he envisioned a combined force of fast strike teams. This would definitely fit the bill for that.
 
Top