SCI Cave girl was half Neanderthal, half Denisovan

[Melodi]

Cave girl was half Neanderthal, half Denisovan
By Helen Briggs
BBC News
3 hours ago

Image copyrightB VIOLA, MPI-EVA
Image caption
Denisova cave in Siberia: Scene of an ancient liaison
Once upon a time, two early humans of different ancestry met at a cave in Russia.

Some 50,000 years later, scientists have confirmed that they had a daughter together.

DNA extracted from bone fragments found in the cave show the girl was the offspring of a Neanderthal mother and a Denisovan father.

The discovery, reported in Nature, gives a rare insight into the lives of our closest ancient human relatives.

Neanderthals and Denisovans were humans like us, but belonged to different species.

"We knew from previous studies that Neanderthals and Denisovans must have occasionally had children together," says Viviane Slon, researcher at the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology (MPI-EVA) in Leipzig, Germany.

"But I never thought we would be so lucky as to find an actual offspring of the two groups."

Is everyone part Neanderthal?
Present-day, non-African humans have a small proportion of their DNA that comes from Neanderthals.

Some other non-African populations, depending on where they live, also have a fraction of their DNA that comes from an Asian people known as Denisovans.

Image copyrightB VIOLA, MPI-EVA
Image caption
Excavations at the cave
The fact the genes have been passed down the generations shows that interbreeding must have happened.

However, the only known site where fossil evidence of both Denisovans and Neanderthals has been found is at Denisova cave in the Altai Mountains of Siberia.

And very few - less than 20 - so-called archaic humans (those belonging to species other than our own, Homo sapiens) have had their genomes sequenced.

"Out of this very little number we find one individual that has half-and-half mixed ancestry, " Dr Slon told BBC News.

When other studies are taken into account, "you start to get a picture that over all of our evolutionary history humans always mixed with each other".

When and where did Neanderthals and Denisovans live?
Neanderthals and Denisovans are known to have overlapped in time in Eurasia.

The two groups lived until about 40,000 years ago; Neanderthals in the west and Denisovans in the east.

As Neanderthals migrated eastwards, they may have encountered Denisovans at times, as well as early modern humans.

"Neanderthals and Denisovans may not have had many opportunities to meet," says Svante Pääbo, director of MPI-EVA.

"But when they did, they must have mated frequently - much more so than we previously thought."

What do we know about the girl and her family?
The girl's story has been pieced together from a single fragment of bone found in the Denisova cave by Russian archaeologists several years ago.

Image copyrightB VIOLA, MPI-EVA
Image caption
The cave is the only place where fossils of Neanderthals and Denisovans have been found
It was brought to Leipzig for genetic analysis.

"The fragment is part of a long bone, and we can estimate that this individual was at least 13 years old," says Bence Viola of the University of Toronto.

The researchers deduced that the girl's mother was genetically closer to Neanderthals who lived in western Europe than to a Neanderthal individual who lived earlier in Denisova Cave.

This shows that Neanderthals migrated between western and eastern Europe and Asia tens of thousands of years before they died out.

Genetic tests also revealed that the Denisovan father had at least one Neanderthal ancestor further back in his family tree.

https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-45271644

 

[Melodi]

A bone belonging to a very unusual teenage girl has once again shaken up our understanding of human history.

Around 50,000 years ago, Eurasia was home to two very distinct groups of humans, separated by thousands of years of evolution – the Neanderthals and the Denisovans.

Now analysis of a bone fragment from a Siberian cave has revealed the girl it came from had a Neanderthal mother and a Denisovan father.


Mysterious ancient humans prompt rethink of early brain evolution
Scientists have been gradually unpicking the complicated relationships of our distant ancestors, using ancient DNA.

Increasingly, these efforts have suggested few displayed any form of prejudice when selecting partners.

"But I never thought we would be so lucky as to find an actual offspring of the two groups,” says Dr Viviane Slon, one of the researchers behind the discovery at the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.

bone-fragment-denisovan.jpg
The bone fragment 'Denisova 11' from several angles (T. Higham, University of Oxford)
Denisova Cave, which is so far the only place physical evidence of the mysterious Denisovans been unearthed, has proved to be a treasure trove of human history.

The bone fragment, “Denisova 11”, that the new study was based on was discovered there by Russian archaeologists in 2012 before being taken to Germany for genetic analysis.


Researchers at Tel Aviv University shed new light on early modern human evolution
The key message from the new discovery, outlined in the journal Nature, is that not only was interbreeding happening, it was happening a lot.

“To find an actual hybrid of such a mating in a still sparse fossil record must surely indicate that these matings could not have been rare events, at least when the populations met each other, under whatever circumstances,” said Professor Chris Stringer, an expert in human origins based at the Natural History Museum, who was not involved in the research.

Analysis of the genome also revealed that the Denisovan father of the girl, who was 13 at the time of death, had at least one Neandertal ancestor further back in his family tree, meaning there were multiple instances of interbreeding within this one family.

archaologisists-denisovan.jpg
Archaeologists (clockwise from top) Richard Roberts, Vladimir Ulianov and Maxim Kozlikin in the east Cchamber of Denisova Cave (IAET SB RAS, Sergei Zelensky)
"Neanderthals and Denisovans may not have had many opportunities to meet,” said Professor Svante Paabo, a pioneer in the exploration of ancient human DNA who also worked on the new study.

“But when they did, they must have mated frequently – much more so than we previously thought."

Humans bred with peculiar Denisovan species more than once, study says
Professor Mark Thomas, an evolutionary geneticist at University College London who was not involved in the research, said the evidence for interbreeding between ancient human lineages can be seen to this day in the DNA of modern people.

Around 5 per cent of DNA in some people today, particularly those from Papua New Guinea, is thought to be Denisovan in origin.

Ample evidence of breeding between humans and Neanderthals has emerged in recent years, including a modern human specimen from Romania who had a Neanderthal ancestor just four generations back.

“The really interesting thing is we seem to have caught one of them in the act, again” Prof Thomas told The Independent.

While Neanderthals and Denisovans were similar enough to produce offspring, these ancient human lineages would have been far more genetically distinct than any human groups alive today.

Prof Thomas added: “Clearly they weren’t racist – so it’s a lesson from our distant relatives.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...y-ancient-humans-russia-siberia-a8503616.html

 

[Haybails]

Saw this image on the inter-webs just last night ...

Made me chuckle.

HB

 

[Profit of Doom]

Saw this image on the inter-webs just last night ...

Made me chuckle.

HB

Congress?

 

[Melodi]

Congress?

10 points for a win! lol...I almost lost a keyboard

 

[petedtom]

Saw this image on the inter-webs just last night ...

Made me chuckle.

HB

Camden NJ ?

 

[Satanta]

Looks like Denizens of Chicago and South Africa.

 

[Satanta]

oh and when there are like 200 people of different sub-species on the entireplanet yer gonna nail whatever walks. Like TWD. bunch of zombies and maybe twen real live women? I was there and all of them would be pregnant in a month or two.

 

[Melodi]

I enjoy the jokes gang but this really is a very-very-very big story in prehistoric archeology; it was just a few years ago that there were scientists on the history channel claiming that modern people NEVER interbred with Neanderthals; one guy the channel loved was a rather obnoxious "Aussie Bloke" who made a whole career out of it until the DNA proved him wrong several times over.

I never actually saw him "eat crow" on the air but he just sort of disappeared when they had to stop re-running all the old documentaries with him in it; modern people outside of Africa have up to 4 percent Neanderthal DNA and a lot of Asians have a small percentage of Denisovan.

This find now shows that not only were those two groups sometimes getting together with modern humans but they were also sometimes mating with each other (note the father of the young girls while mostly Denisovan also had a Neanderthal ancestor in his background).

Personally, I predicted here on the forum the moment the German lab (that did the tests many times over being Germans) announced that modern humans had Neanderthal DNA; that within months there were suddenly be a lot of "startling discoveries" of Neanderthals having done all sorts of things science thought they didn't do; and that proved to be the case (mostly by admitting that many finds were in Neanderthal sites but simply classified as non-Neanderthal because "we know they didn't have fill-in-the-blank) - musical instruments, artwork, jewelry etc. were suddenly "re-classified" because they were found in Neanderthal sites.

Once it was proved that "THEY IS US," everything suddenly turned around (pretty much overnight); I suspect in the future scientists will stop talking about Neanderthals, Denisovans and Co-Magnons as separate species but lump together as human beings with some similar scientific marker.

Now the Holy Grail is finding the "Ghost Species" (at least one) that is also showing up in DNA studies, one whose remains have yet to be found, but does seem to be another of our genetic ancestors.

I find all this stuff fascinating though I love the idea of Congress filled with the old-fashioned idea of sub-human cavemen lol

 

[BadMedicine]

Its not much different than a true african and a true asian mating. They have been separated genetically for 50,000 years, but not THAT MUCH divergence occurred to prevent mating. Both neanderthal and denisovan and the hobbit evolved from homo-erectus, the first upright ae to leave Africa, after that he evolved independently in euro, asia, and african groups. african group become homo sapien sapien "modern human" (as science used to like to say...) then left and intermingled with neanders in euro, denis in asia, and mixes in between.

This whole time though groups of AFRICAN homo erectus were breeding with homo sapiens in africa, making them a mixture, but with no base group to test against...

bottom line is, if it can breed and have fertile, healthy off spring, then it is the same species. Even the lowly chihuahua is still a wolf in his DNA and can have viable chi-wolf pups...

once a homo, always a homo.

 

[Ractivist]

Which came first, the chicken or the egg?

Or was it the rooster?

I believe within that joke is a whole lot of truth. Momma sits on the egg for 21 days I think....at 102 or so degree's....any hotter it rots, any cooler it rots.....
I believe in God and his creations. The evolution story focuses on apes to humans.......what about the rest of life, so abundant it is. Then we get into the complexity. It's nothing short of intelligent design showing off, rightly so. Got to give him cred too. As a man, I'm thankful for my woman and how wonderfully she is made.

 

[homecanner1]

Congress may be a bunch of neanderthals but the dail has its share of greedy gobshites too. Lots of folks with hands out while the gay hindu in Dublin looks the other way at wickedness.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/break...-hospital-delay-is-an-opportunity-859686.html

I would urge everyone to get their DNA tested ( and securely uploaded ) and then do as Marsh did and find your ancient haplotype subgroups online. Mine goes back to pre Christian, Bronze age Hungarian/Scythian. Might be Danite offshoots who fled north. But jibes perfectly with where they emigrated from to the USA.

 

[Profit of Doom]

10 points for a win! lol...I almost lost a keyboard

I aim to please

 

[Melodi]

Its not much different than a true african and a true asian mating. They have been separated genetically for 50,000 years, but not THAT MUCH divergence occurred to prevent mating. Both neanderthal and denisovan and the hobbit evolved from homo-erectus, the first upright ae to leave Africa, after that he evolved independently in euro, asia, and african groups. african group become homo sapien sapien "modern human" (as science used to like to say...) then left and intermingled with neanders in euro, denis in asia, and mixes in between.

This whole time though groups of AFRICAN homo erectus were breeding with homo sapiens in africa, making them a mixture, but with no base group to test against...

bottom line is, if it can breed and have fertile, healthy off spring, then it is the same species. Even the lowly chihuahua is still a wolf in his DNA and can have viable chi-wolf pups...

once a homo, always a homo.

Recent science isn't even certain that Neanderthals, Denisovans, Cromagans etc did, in fact, evolve from Homo Erectus - the "Hobbits" probably did but even that isn't dead certain either anymore.

The DNA (along with some other evidence) is starting to suggest that people were a lot more mobile than previously thought and just checking "modern" DNA doesn't take into account ancient migrations of people whose direct lines may have died out.

There are some recent theories (that reflect some very old ones from the early 20th century) in the DNA stuff that suggest some modern humans (and others) may have come out of Asia as much as they did Africa; and even when considering Africa it looks like people "left" multiple times and return to "leave" again; as well as mingling with others in Asia.

So we can't really be certain that Africans and Asians were "totally separated" for 50,000 years, in fact, they most likely were not totally.

Some recent finds exploring teeth, diet and bone chemistry has been showing that by the late stone age it can be proved that some people traveled 2,000 miles plus in a single lifetime; and they were probably doing that a lot earlier too.

If you (and probably your tribe/extended family) move hundreds or thousands of miles during your own life-span, it is highly likely you will both exchange (and leave behind) some members and pick up some new ones along the way; mostly by marriage and sometimes by adoption (child or adult versions to become tribal members).

Edited to add: I am not saying modern people didn't evolve from Homo Erectus, only that at this point the direct line does not seem as "clear" as it was once believed to be; there may be some more missing puzzle pieces or yet another "ancestor" for everyone.

 

[fish hook]

Congress?

I don't think so.From their actions i would think they came closer to the one on the left end of that line.

 

[20Gauge]

Now the Holy Grail is finding the "Ghost Species" (at least one) that is also showing up in DNA studies, one whose remains have yet to be found, but does seem to be another of our genetic ancestors.

I find all this stuff fascinating though I love the idea of Congress filled with the old-fashioned idea of sub-human cavemen lol

Aliens????

 

[20Gauge]

Recent science isn't even certain that Neanderthals, Denisovans, Cromagans etc did, in fact, evolve from Homo Erectus - the "Hobbits" probably did but even that isn't dead certain either anymore.

The DNA (along with some other evidence) is starting to suggest that people were a lot more mobile than previously thought and just checking "modern" DNA doesn't take into account ancient migrations of people whose direct lines may have died out.

There are some recent theories (that reflect some very old ones from the early 20th century) in the DNA stuff that suggest some modern humans (and others) may have come out of Asia as much as they did Africa; and even when considering Africa it looks like people "left" multiple times and return to "leave" again; as well as mingling with others in Asia.

So we can't really be certain that Africans and Asians were "totally separated" for 50,000 years, in fact, they most likely were not totally.

Some recent finds exploring teeth, diet and bone chemistry has been showing that by the late stone age it can be proved that some people traveled 2,000 miles plus in a single lifetime; and they were probably doing that a lot earlier too.

If you (and probably your tribe/extended family) move hundreds or thousands of miles during your own life-span, it is highly likely you will both exchange (and leave behind) some members and pick up some new ones along the way; mostly by marriage and sometimes by adoption (child or adult versions to become tribal members).

Edited to add: I am not saying modern people didn't evolve from Homo Erectus, only that at this point the direct line does not seem as "clear" as it was once believed to be; there may be some more missing puzzle pieces or yet another "ancestor" for everyone.

All joking aside. This is the nature of people. We will fail to recognize or accept things until they are forced to do so. Once the dam is broken, then all sorts of things are realized. The same applies here.

 

[GingerN]

Its not much different than a true african and a true asian mating. They have been separated genetically for 50,000 years, but not THAT MUCH divergence occurred to prevent mating. Both neanderthal and denisovan and the hobbit evolved from homo-erectus, the first upright ae to leave Africa, after that he evolved independently in euro, asia, and african groups. african group become homo sapien sapien "modern human" (as science used to like to say...) then left and intermingled with neanders in euro, denis in asia, and mixes in between.

This whole time though groups of AFRICAN homo erectus were breeding with homo sapiens in africa, making them a mixture, but with no base group to test against...

bottom line is, if it can breed and have fertile, healthy off spring, then it is the same species. Even the lowly chihuahua is still a wolf in his DNA and can have viable chi-wolf pups...

once a homo, always a homo.

talk about a vicious little critter, lol. A chi-wolf. I thought I had a weird one in a Blue Heeler/Chihuahua cross.

 

[marsh]

Here is that archaic DNA website http://www.y-str.org/p/ancient-dna.html
If you have your dna uploaded to gedmatch, you can match it to their findings. genealogy.)

23andme has an excellent ethnicity ID program (although lousy for genealogy.) I did find I had a trace amount of Neanderthal variants. I read somewhere that some immunities were passed down from them that allowed populations to survive the plagues of Europe. I also have redheads in the family, which are said to trace to Neanderthal.

FTDNA (Family Tree dna) has a great function that compares your dna to various archaeology sites. I match with many sites around an alpine region of Germany, (including the site where Otzi the Iceman was found.) This is consistent with my father's genealogy where 6 out of 8 of his great grandparents came from the same Bavarian town. Imagine how many centuries they lived in the same general area.

I find this all fascinating. I figure I am an old lady so my DNA is not going to effect me that much. My kids only have a 50/50 chance they got some of it and even less for my grandchildren. At least they will have this snapshot of part of their genetic makeup.