Brakes and rotors

[Dennis Olson]

I have a question:

I need brakes on my vehicles. Do I need to have the rotors turned or replaced, or can I just put new pads on? How hard a job is putting new pads on, and are there any special tools needed? How long should it take, and what do I need to make sure gets done?

TIA

 

[rryan]

Several questions:

What kind of car?

How much $$ you want to spend?

Are the rotors severely worn or grooved?

As far as tools--basic wrenches/sockets/probably allen wrenches too

A brake piston compressor is almost a necessity ($15.00 or so)

Most brake shops/dealershps will tell you that your rotors need replaced or at least turned every time--not always the case esp is you jsut need a short term fix--

 

[Dennis Olson]

I have two vehicles: a 1992 Pontiac Grand Prix SE, and a 1995 Dodge Ram 1500 PU truck. Both need brakes. I cannot afford to have rotors turned right now. The Pontiac DOES need them turned, as there is some "shake" when the brakes are applied, but the truck is fine.

I assume I need to take the wheels off. These were put on with an air wrench, so I'm kinda worried about getting them off without breaking the lugnuts.

As to $'s, it must be as little as possible for now.

 

[Handyman]

yes it would be best to thave them turned it there thick enough, the new stuff you will have a hard time to get them turned and not under size them, it will renew the surface of the rotor, and give the pad a new working surface to work off, also there is hard spots that develope and the surface wears many times uneven and In my oppinon it is best to resurface or to replace, the rotor.

a C clamp can many times be used to push the pistion back in to the rotor, (dont let the calapier hang by the hose, use a wire to support the rotor while it is off of the wheel. also when you press the piston back into the calapier will force brake fluid back in to the master cycliinder and may over fill it, (depending on how you have maintained it)

 

[rryan]

Been there----I do not recommend this but I have "resufaced " (that's kind of a stretch to call it that) rotors with a belt sander----if you have a shake it prolly wouldnt help a bit---I suggest junk yards for replacemnt rotors--down here usually about $10 each if you pull them yourself.

Use a good tight sockets or 4 way to remove the lug nuts--and a cheater bar/pipe and apply steady pressure and it is very unlikely you will strip or break any lugs/bolts.

Ont he truck jus tput new pads---even if hte rotors need turned you can still likely get 10k miles out of jsut new pads.

Now, back to the lug nuts---this a major prep issue--the last thing you want is a bad situation and be trying to move somewhere in a hurry and NOT be able to undo the damn lugs nuts----I always check mine after they have been hit with an impact wrench but ALWAYS keep a good quality lug wrench and a 2' or so piece of heavy pipe at least 1" diameter in the car--my wife couldnt undo lugs on my truck or van if her life depended on it--but with a good ratchet and a 30" cheater bar she can do them fairly easy.

I did the pads on my friends 94 dodge ram a couple months ago---you willl need allen/hex wrenches but they are pretty easy to do.

 

[WFK]

Agree with most. Have always done brakes myself: when shaking I replaced rotors. Have resurfaced with disk sander too.
Never used a piston compressor but carpenter type clamps which may fit better than C clamps. Watch for brake fluid overflow...
Watch that you put the pads in so that the warning scrapers are were the old ones were. Replace the pad holding springs if broken or rusty.

If they were tightened to spec, lug nuts will come off manually.
Problem is, shops often overtighten with air wrench.
On my truck I bent a lug wrench trying to get them off, then resigned and had Ford retighten them to spec (for which they used a correctly set air wrench.) THEN I got them off with the same lug wrench without bending it.
I always put corrosion preventative on the studs before putting lug nuts back on.

The caliper screws (2) are facing away from you and may be very hard to get loose. Be very sure about the direction of force applied - easily done wrong.

 

[stillprepping]

dennis,
"I need brakes on my vehicles"

NOW i understand why you created this forum .. to help you with your car problems!

but seriously, i think this is a good idea. i often have mechanical questions but theres no place to go to ask for suggestions. i've never even thought of searching for such a forum.

 

[Bigbng]

Yeah, i've done the brakes on every one of my cars, but the latest ones I was a big worried about the anti-lock braking system, and that I wouldn't be able to do it myself.
I just unhooked the plug at the bottom of the caliper, before starting work on it and plugged it back when I was done. Too bad they keep changing the allen/torx sockets
on almost every car I've had! by the time I need to use it, I lose them and have to pick up another......

I use a vise-grip c-clamp, (lets me compress with one hand)
As for rotors, I'll usually buy a new set the second time I do the brakes, that way I can just replace the old ones with the new, and there is always enough meat left on the old ones to have them turned for the next time they need replacing.
Plus it saves you the trouble if you only have one vehicle to get around, to be able to finish the job at once.

Any suggestions for a weak windshield wiper arm?
My wife's car 2000 Sunfire, passenger side is terrible. I tried those springs, and new blades, but it still seems kind of "limp" Before I go to the wrecker and pick up another one, just wanted to do a band-aid solution.

Anyone else not keen on anti-lock brakes?
Wew just had our first significant snowfall up here, and this is the first time I have driven my new car in the snow. I am totally unimpressed with how much longer it tales to stop than with normal brakes.

 

[Ultrconservative]

For the Gran Prix, (all GM models), you will need a T-45 "torqs" (sp?) wrench or socket.

Been years since I did a Dodge.

I carry a 8 inch C clamp to compress calipers, but have pryed them back with a lug wrench in the past.

Even if the car needs turned rotors, a set of $11 brake pads can buy you some time, and keep your rotors from getting so gouged that you have to replace them.

PS, if the calipers don't compress easily, try turning the pistons counterclock-wise as you press down on them. Some cars (Mazda, for one) have screw in caliper pistons.

 

[Bigbng]

Torx, for the Grand Prix

3/8th Allen for the 2000 Sunfire

Messed up a couple of caliper pins using the wrong one.
I have a little mirror I can verify if it is pointed star shaped (Torx) or hexagonal (Allen)

 

[Pathfinder]

I have two vehicles: a 1992 Pontiac Grand Prix SE, and a 1995 Dodge Ram 1500 PU truck. Both need brakes. I cannot afford to have rotors turned right now. The Pontiac DOES need them turned, as there is some "shake" when the brakes are applied, but the truck is fine.

Most techs will tell you that you need to turn your rotors but..

If you are having a vibration problem, I would check into a shop that does "on-car" turning. Save youself alot of grief.

On the PU, if you dont see a lot of heat cracks or anything that would cause a problem later on, I would go ahead and just do the pads.

As to $'s, it must be as little as possible for now.

Brakes is something noone should ever scrimp on..

 

['plain o joe']

Open the lid to the Master Cyclinder, before trying to push the pads away from the rotor...

Most techs will tell you that you need to turn your rotors but..


Brakes is something noone should ever scrimp on..

Better to have more whoe than go...

Always turn the rotors IF they still can be turned..

Dennis, ...if your big rig has been worked on recently (or you may suddenly find it needs WORK) try slipping the mechanic a 20 to turn the rotors he finds in the driver seat floor board...

Then again, you could give D'Anne a pair of rotors wrapped up in a box for Christmas... she'll never figure out what could weigh so much if she's a box shaker.

 

[don24mac]

On my last car, a 90 Toyota Camry, I did all the brake work over the 180,000 mi, 12 years that I owned it. I replaced the pads about every 30,000 to 35,000 miles. The brakes never pulsated or shook, so I only had the rotors turned once, at about 120,000 miles. The brakes always worked perfectly on that car. Every time I did replace the pads I took a piece of sand paper and lightly rubbed the rotors. There were very slight groves on em, but the new pads would break right in, in about 5 miles or so.

Oh, and I always used the Toyota brake pads. The ones bought at auto-parts stores never seemed to last as long as the original equipment pads.

 

[Con-tractor]

It seems you can get good deals on rotors on Ebay nowadays. I am pretty much against having rotors turned esp when they are warped. Brake jobs are easy but dirty and messy so I prefer to replace everything.

Jon

 

[Hamilton Felix]

Commercial shops always do it...

...I think the commercial shops always turn rotors because it's a possible liability issue if they don't resurface them (or turning the rotors guarantees they'll get to sell you a new set next time you are in their shop).

I replaced pads on our '96 K2500 Suburban about three times, without turning. It was easy to visually check for grooving, glazing, cracking, then borrow a dial indicator and check for runout. As long as those discs were in good shape, I didn't mess with them.

When I finally starting getting pedal pulsation, I went in to a commercial shop -- knowing I'd need pads and my rotors turned. Unfortunately, that many sets of today's semi-metallic pads had worn down the rotors until they were too thin to turn. I bought new rotors, anyway.

I am starting to get that uneven feel again --- not so much pedal pulsation (well, a little) as a definite feeling at low speed that the amount of brake friction increases and decreases with every turn of the wheels. In the old days, I'd have said "egg shaped drum," but this rig seems to have VERY long life on rear brake shoes and drums. It's probably time to look at those front rotors again.

By the time my wife returns from Darrington tonight, we'll have 173,000 miles on that rig. Recently replaced an alternator, but have never replaced a headlight or front marker bulb. Intake manifold R&R was expensive, and two fuel pump replacements were both expensive and inconvenient. But this rig has never stranded us.

 

[Randy in Arizona]

Cheap Brake Caliper Piston Tool

I have made tools to push back the pistons by taking the old brake pad backing plate from the side away from the piston and punching out the rivets, drilling a 5/8" hole in the center of the backing plate and bolting a nut to the same side as the friction material was on and welding it in place. You then can use a long 5/8" bolt to push the piston back into place. (Only works for single piston calipers.)

If this won't work Lisle has an inexpensive tool that is placed between the old pads and it forces the pistons back into their cylinders. (Works as a small scissors jack.)

 

[OddOne]

Commercial auto repair shops will generally require (or at least strongly recommend) rotor turning or replacement for one or more of the following reasons:

1. Liability, first and foremost - if you even LOOK at the brake system and it fails later, ANYTHING you didn't do but should have, rotor checking included, will be used against you in the investigation and any following legal proceedings.
2. New pads paired up with worn/warped/uneven rotors tend to not wear together evenly. Until they wear down they will wear unevenly, causing hotspots on both, and the hotspots can cause things like pulsation during braking. As an added bonus, the pads will wear unevenly until they match the rotor profile, and this usually shortens their usable life.
3. Rotors MUST be replaced routinely as they wear down to the minimum safe thickness. Turning them at each pad replacement ensures they wear down more evenly and don't get grooves that can prematurely wear (or even cut into) them. If they get down below the minimum, the brake system is no longer safe as the rotor could warp or actually crack during a panic stop.
4. Pad warranties are void if the rotor's not turned or replaced. Didn't want to pay the extra $15 to turn 'em? Forget a warranty on your high-end pads if they squeal later.


My father's auto shop mandates rotor turning if we do a brake job. (Shop has its own brake lathe so it's done immediately and in-house.) We won't touch a brake system if the customer refuses this AND we have them sign a waiver that they refuse what we consider an important and necessary part of a brake service, in case they drive off and a rotor cracks or warps and takes out a caliper. That liability thing is pretty darn important.


Going rate for rotor resurfacing in our neck of the woods is $6 per, so it's probably NOT expensive to have rotors turned in your area if they're not too thin. Cheap insurance.

oO

 

[Hamilton Felix]

Just out of curiousity:

Do you have a guestimate of how much usually gets taken off the rotor? I probably should not be so shy about turning rotors, since today's semi-metallic pads wear them down anyway. I guess I'm just a cheapskate from the past, and it often seems that unnecessary turning of drums or rotors shortens the life of the part and means I'll soon have to buy another. Time for me to acknowledge that they are all "consumables." I do realize that a grooved, glazed or surface cracked drum/rotor needs turning if it is to last much longer at all.

 

[Donald Shimoda]

Don't forget the public library.

Howdy, Folks!

Dennis(and all),

Dunno what it's like in your NOTW, but here - the public library's pretty decent.

Dozens and dozens of automotive and motorcycle manuals available.

If you do not know how to do something on your car(or any other appliance, for that matter) and you cannot spring for a shop manual, please check at your local library. Many libraries also have such things available on microfilm, and copiers are usually readily available.

I once did about $1000.00 worth of AC work on my car for the price of $.30 - for copies of wiring diagrams, a list of things to test, and a diagram of a teardown of my dashboard. It was all labor; no parts were needed(I was able to take the parts apart and clean them, and reinstall them).


Brakes - done mine for years. All the advice on this thread is sound, Dennis. Only thing I can add - turning them isn't too expensive. I pull mine and take 'em to a local machine shop; it costs me $6 each if they need it(once in a blue moon).

As for a piston compression tool - lots of auto places have "loan a tool" programs - you leave a deposit, and you get it back when you bring back the tool. As Ultrconservative wrote, some pistons thread in; you do need a special compression tool for this - once again, Read The Fabulous Manual to see if you need one of these...

Finally - if time, money, or health will not allow one to do this sort of work - check with your local high school. Often times they have shop classes for the motorheads there, and if you supply the parts, they'll do the labor for free(they need the experience). A great way to get cheap body/paint work done, I might add(some of these kids are REALLY talented).


Finally - take the bus whenever you can. Or the train. Or walk. Or bicycle. All are MUCH cheaper alternatives that dovetail quite nicely into the prepper lifestyle, and will help you preserve your car or truck or whatever vehicle that much longer.

Good luck to all!

 

[OddOne]

Re: Just out of curiousity:

Do you have a guestimate of how much usually gets taken off the rotor? I probably should not be so shy about turning rotors, since today's semi-metallic pads wear them down anyway. I guess I'm just a cheapskate from the past, and it often seems that unnecessary turning of drums or rotors shortens the life of the part and means I'll soon have to buy another. Time for me to acknowledge that they are all "consumables." I do realize that a grooved, glazed or surface cracked drum/rotor needs turning if it is to last much longer at all.

If it's an evenly-worn rotor (no grooves and no warped spots), it can be trued with as little as a few thousandths per side shaved off. I've done a few that only needed .004" total to clean up.

Rotors in worse shape - particularly warped ones, and most rotors warp to some small degree during use - may take as much as .010" total to clean up, and badly scored ones can easily get up into the .030" range.

Bear in mind, that most rotors have in the neighborhood of .100" - .150" of working thickness before you reach the discard level.

oO