Bird Flu: So, what do you do if...

A.T.Hagan

Inactive
I posted this to another board and I also want to post it here to get points of view and start some discussion.

<strong>A potential timeline for the flu in the United States.</strong>

A friend of mine who preps to a degree wanted to talk about the flu the other day. He's concerned about it as Gainesville has four hospitals, a college of medicine, and a major university drawing people from all over the world so is likely to see the flu sooner rather than later if ever it shows up in the United States.

The discussion quickly came down to a basic problem. At what point do you activate all of your prep planning? If the bird (or whatever) flu shows up in the United States the same way other disease epidemics have shown up then it's going to come on gradually - at least in the beginning.

When to make the jump?

Allow me to toss out a scenario. Change the place names to suit your situation, the important thing is the relative distances involved.

October, 2005.

October 1: Three confirmed cases of Bird Flu are diagnosed in Seattle, all three victims flew to the United States from overseas in the same plane with dozens of other people, most of whom flew to other places after the Seattle stop over. That's the other side of the continent from me, but with air transport for all I know several of those folks ended up in Orlando the next day.

October 8: It is now seven days later. Ten more people in Seattle with the flu. Several suspected cases in Chicago, Spokane, Portland (Or.), and Toronto, none confirmed as for sure Bird Flu.

October 15: It is now two weeks after the first cases diagnosed. There are now six confirmed cases in each of the above cities with more <i>suspected</i> in surrounding communities, New York City, Boston, and Philadelphia. Three deaths thus far.

October 22: Twelve more suspected cases in the above cities, none confirmed, no further deaths.

October 28: Nine confirmed cases, one more death, suspected cases in Portland, (Me.), Buffalo New York, Washington D..C., Scranton PA., and Baltimore, Maryland.

November 4th: Two deaths, twelve more confirmed cases, several dozen suspected cases spread across the Northeast, northern Midwest, Central Atlantic states, Northern California, Oregon, Washington States, Denver Colorado, and Salt Lake City, Utah.

November 12th: Three more deaths, dozens of confirmed cases, hundreds of suspected cases beginning to show up in states further and further south as the cold weather moves in that direction.

The complications: The economy still functions. People still have to buy food, the lights have to be kept on, the nation is still trying to go about its business. The government is not ordering mass closings of businesses though many schools have closed and many large sporting events have been cancelled. Your bills continue to arrive in the mail, your employer continues to expect you to show up for work.

Further, the actual time line may drag out even longer than this, perhaps much longer as the disease gradually worsens in intensity and spread.

The questions: At what stage along the way do you do what?

Given the very real chance the flu begins its spread in a gradual way at what point do you simply go home and lock the gate from the inside to wait it out?

What do you do before you reach that point?

.....Alan.
 
-

Alan;

You maight want to advance the time frame from October - to the end of August (remember the thousands of Chinese Foriegn Exchange students returning from China to resume their college classes?).

Wanna bet?
 

Jim in MO

Inactive
A.T.Hagan said:
The complications: The economy still functions. People still have to buy food, the lights have to be kept on, the nation is still trying to go about its business. The government is not ordering mass closings of businesses though many schools have closed and many large sporting events have been cancelled. Your bills continue to arrive in the mail, your employer continues to expect you to show up for work.

.....Alan.

This is the part that I keep thinking about. The only thing I can think of is to keep the family on the farm while I make any trips that are needed which includes going to work. I'm hoping more folks post with ideas because this is an area outside of my knowledge base.
 

Crawlingtoy

Veteran Member
This is something that is hard for me to really plan. Just because 10 people die, does that mean I should lock myself in a room with a fan in a can and a bunch of N100 masks?
 

coalcracker

Veteran Member
A couple of red flags that will get my attention:

1. When the govt institutes a directive demanding that "essential" workers must report to work or stay at work.

2. When a confirmed case is identified locally (Your timeline above mentions a confirmed case in Scranton, PA - that one would personally get my attention).

We must be ready to take a serious financial hit when we choose to halt our productivity/employment outside our house for weeks, maybe even months. Most people will be unwilling to do this.

We must also be willing to get out of Dodge and not to go back until the fires burn out. I would also avoid all metropolitan areas as soon as any cases are reported in the USA. I can do that easily since I neither live nor am employed in an urban area.

This flu scenario will require us to go "all in" at some point. I consider points #1 and #2 above to be "Big Slick."
 

prudentwatcher

Veteran Member
Alan, I also live in Gainesville and have thought about the problems because of the University and the proximity to major tourist destinations.

The problem is where on the scale between 1 case of bird flu and the government officially declaring an emergency do you actually do something. I'm reading about the pandemic of 1918 and it has been very interesting and very educational. One thing we probably all realize is that the government is not going to give us much info because of panic, economic reasons, political reasons, military reasons, etc., so when the government does say something it is going to be way too late.

I think the internet will be the way to get information (though conspiracy nuts may think the gov would take down the net to stop this). That is why these kinds of boards are so important. I would closely monitor the reported cases. When they got past the Mississippi River (in your scenario--or within 3 states of me in any scenario), I would go to PHASE I.

PHASE I: Top off any remaining preps, whether food, fuel, medical or other. Limit contact with crowds or large concentrations of people==no sporting events, no going out to dinner, no movies, and possibly no church. WOuld still continue to work.

PHASE II: Cases reported in state. Definitely no contact with large groups of people. No more shopping. Only to work and back (I use the phone for work), might not go to second job as more contact with people. SO works in the medical field at a local prison and is around 100 new inmates per day. Might not be able to get her to stay home, but would require gloves and mask and disinfecting before coming into house. WOuld wear gloves and masks at all times when away from the house.

PHASE III: Cases reported in the city. I would go into lockdown mode at this point. Nobody in or out of house, no matter the economic consequences.

It seems the influenza virus got stronger the longer it went on and most people died from secondary causes (pneumonia). I won't trust a lot of info I get from the government, medical organizations, or the net, as many theories are incorrect and possible solutions might do more harm than good.

I'm still learning, so I will probably refine the PHASES as I go along, but that is my initial plan.
 

theoutlands

Official Resister
Given several of my clients are local hospitals or otherwise health-care providers and the fact we have a local university that draws foreign students, particularly Chinese, you betcha I'm watching this. I will probably be an "essential worker" delivering the supplies to keep the hospitals and govt agencies functioning as long as they can. As it is already, the rest of the family stays "on the farm" (17+ miles from town in a rural area) most of the time and I do the shopping before I leave town.

"Stage 2" on your timeline (Oct 8) would be my personal point of heightened alert. I've been watching the spread reports and this stuff don' look like it plays around. Family would be kept at home almost exclusively - as in we'd likely stop going to town for church - and I would for sure up my "hygiene awareness" at work.

"Stage 3" (Oct 15) and we'd prolly lock the gates at the farm. I have no doubt *I* would still be going to town until some govt entity starts shutting down travel, due to my job and client list.

By "Stage 7" (Nov 12), we'd be taking anti-flu remedies (colloidal silver and the like) - especially ME! - on a daily basis. (but I'm betting my local Herbologist would have me doing it LONG before then...)
 

Hansa44

Justine Case
I absolutely believe I need to make sure I have all necessary preps the minute word comes the Avian flu is in this country.

Also, it's important to remember that if it is your time to leave this life, you may be receiving a bigger Blessing than you now realize. A country with 25% to 40% dead is not something I'd like to tackle.

Also, all species that can't control their breeding obsession tend to get largely eradicated with some disease in order to make room for more and to start over. So no need to panic.

In order to prolong your life, I recommend "DO NOT GO TO ANY RESTAURANTS" !!!

Almost every illness I have picked up comes directly from contact I've had with restaurants. One food handler can contaminate 100's in one day.

If you go to supermarkets, keep disinfecting wipes with you at all times. Wipe your cart, your hands and car door handle, etc. And scrub hands when you get home.
 

Claudia

I Don't Give a Rat's Ass...I'm Outta Here!
Alan, I think your timeline may prove a bit too drawn out. I believe the number of cases would grow exponentially after the first cases are diagnosed, so I'll give you our plans according to the timeline I foresee. From the time of diagnosis of those airline passengers, I'd give it only one to two weeks to reach the point beyond which life as we know it changes forever. My personal plan is, with one confirmed case in the continental US, to check preps immediately, fill both cars with gas, buy whatever non-essentials I want (because after all, by this time, all the essentials have long been bought, right?) - this would also be time to swap off the partially filled propane tank for the grill for a full one to go with the other full one we've already got.
This would be time to refill every prescription, even if insurance won't pay and we have to pay full price, and time for a last doc's visit if more scripts are needed. After this point, neither car will have less than 3/4 tank of gas at any time.
All the fresh food we have will be on that week's menu, we will start eating out of the freezer, and eat nothing that will survive storage unless we replace it immediately.
Time too to empty and refill all water containers that are used to store tap water.

I figure at the end of a week, with the projected rise in cases being higher and faster than most would think, we might hear of a first case within either the state where we live, or an adjoining state. When this happens, or when the government takes certain actions, or when the perceived level of fear exceeds what I think is reasonable, then it's time for one last check of everything, then bolt the doors and wait. Far better too soon rather than too late. Waiting then might well be one of the hardest parts. One problem I may face would be getting DH to realize it's time to stop going to work - he works in a grocery store, that place secondary only to hospitals as a breeding ground for germs. I'm a firm believer in the rules for survival set out by Heinlein through the character of Hugh Farnham.

I'm figuring the time frame from time of the initial diagnosis of one case in Seattle to hunker down time to be between one and two weeks.
My parameters are what they are because that's how I think I can best deal with things. If it's a month instead of a week, all the better - we have a couple of months worth of frozen food to consume before the lights go out, anyway. And at some point, I do think the lights will go out as more and more people are unable to work.

Isolation has to be my first concern - chronic underlying medical problems make it likely that I'd be infected if exposed, and if infected I stand a high probability of not surviving either the flu itself, a cytokine storm, or any of the myriad of possible complications. My only child lives 200 miles away and may or may not want to get on the right side of the door before it locks. She's almost 30 - it's her call. We do have a basement that could be partially sealed off for a quarantine area if someone from outside (like my daughter) is a day late, or if DH insists that he has to go out for some reason. He has two grown sons who would without doubt turn to their mother for help and not us.

There are many things we haven't thought of, many things for which we are unprepared. If the flu of 1918 could spread as fast as it could, at a time when the world was so much smaller in the sense of how long it took to get from place to place, I think that once loose in this hemisphere this flu will literally spread like wildfire. I don't think people are smart enough to stop it. Every day, what I read is more troubling than the day before, there are more unanswered questions than there are answers, and the future appears dim with death and despair. I'm having problems even trying to imagine a scenario in which a flu pandemic within the next six months does not happen. I always believed that events in the Middle East would be the death of us all, only to feel at this point that China in her ignorance and isolation may well be the devil in the details that we all overlooked for far too long.
 

Safecastle

Emergency Essentials Store
So here are my questions, Alan--since the bird flu infects a number of wild animals, and is in fact an airborne virus that can carry a great distance (don't really know the limitations/definition on that), does a plan to withdraw and hole up somewhere do any good at all? And if in fact if it does help at least to some degree to try to isolate yourself--can you really expect to ride it out without exposure and come out on the other side and hope that the virus isn't still there in the environment?

These flu epidemics/pandemics for given flu variants tend to be pretty long-lived and sometimes take years to run their course in human beings. I'm wondering if they just continue to be present as a "factor" till everyone is exposed and either gets sick or doesn't but develops the antibodies to it so that developed immunities eventually make the bad boy of the moment peter out into a non-factor in the human population.

An epidemiologist I am not ... but Michael Osterholm is, and a rather famous one at that. Months ago he was quoted nationally as saying something to the effect of, "... you couldn't even escape the virus if you planned to spend weeks in a bunker."

If this is indeed mostly true, then it seems the only real prep you can do is to try to get ahold of some Tamiflu ... but it would seem that even relying on that is tricky ... to have to determine when to take it since I believe you are supposed to take it within two days of being exposed to the flu. How do you know that for sure?
 

A.T.Hagan

Inactive
I don't know, J.C. There are a LOT of unanswered questions here. In fact, MOST questions as relates to this bird flu thing seem to be unanswered.

I'm not yet convinced we are going to have an epidemic, but the possibility is there. This causes me to start looking at it as a possible scenario which means taking it step by step.

Will isolation be effective? Can't say for sure, but I think it may be a more effective means of protecting oneself than mixing with large crowds. Maybe it can be spread by my local wildlife, but I'm given to believing it won't. No way to know - for certain - until the deal actually goes down. If ever it does.

WHEN to go home and lock the gate is a real problem in this scenario. Few people can simply stop going to work if the country is at all still functioning. Hard to isolate oneself when the bank wants to foreclose on your home because you aren't making the mortgage payment.

If this flu does come to pass here in the U.S. I suspect we're going we're going to most of us be in a period of deciding day-to-day what to do - go to work? Stay home?

I don't think it's going to spread instantly but rather come in waves. May take several weeks or it may take months. The Spanish Flu epidemic took eighteen <i>months</i> to run its course. We have much faster transportation now (for as long as it is allowed) but also much better medicine too. I see no reason not to believe the Bird Flu epidemic might not also run to many months. What to do when is going to be a vital and present question to everyone concerned if that happens.

.....Alan.
 

Stephen

Inactive
Please correct me if I'm wrong (and provide a reliable link as evidence), but I don't think that saying it is "an airborne virus" is correct. It might very well spread by hitching a ride on airborne particles such as from a cough or sneeze, but I am not aware of any kind of infection that is literally airborne. Also, ultra violet light from the sun will kill virtually anything like that fairly quickly. The "airborne" issue is a serious problem in any kind of enclosed space - hospital, aircraft, school, store, workplace, home, etc. where those virus-laden particles can remain suspended until a person comes in contact with them and becomes infected. That must happen before 1) the particle completely evaporates, or 2) is exposed to UV light long enough to kill it. An indoor location is ideal for transmitting a virus that way.

For someone to say "... you couldn't even escape the virus if you planned to spend weeks in a bunker" tells me they are looking for media coverage rather than giving facts. He may well be famous in a Steve Quayle sort of way. I am not going to take what he says as fact without more to back it up though.

Again, if anyone has a reliable source to show that I'm wrong here, please let me know. I'm not here to puncture balloons, but to learn myself. I just don't want to "learn" sensationalized fantasy.
 

Crawlingtoy

Veteran Member
I am NOT very smart about this stuff, but it seems like there would be NOTHING you could really do about this. Would you really want to be sheltered in a safe room for months or even years? I don't want to live like that.

How did humans survive pandemics before? By being healthy? I would imagine a good exercise and diet routine would get you pretty far, but I don't know. It is survival of the fittest after all.
 

Taz

Deceased
In addition to reading about the pandemic in 1917/18, you should perhaps google polio epidemics.
As a kid in southern California we were essentially quarantined during the summer or "polio season". No public swimming pool, no going to the matinaes, no church activities, etc. In the 1946 epidemic in the Los Angeles area, LA General had wards and wards of polio patients. In each ward were over 100 iron lungs. These lungs saved many but not from the crippling effects of the disease. Those that had bulbar polio were goners and quite quickly. So you might read up on those days.
My answer is the same as all other terrors except for hurricanes and forest fires... and that is hunker in the bunker. Quanantine ourselves. Hopefully we are prepared to do just that. I also think that the advance in hygiene and medications for secondary infections will play a great role in how you fare. OTOH, modern transportation will spread it like wildfire. I would guess that Orlando would be one of the first areas to have great numbers, since they fly in there daily from all over the world to go to Disney World. Orlando will certainly be on my off limits list. Also the same with Houston and the U of Texas Medical Center where they come from all over the world. And the U of F's Shand's hospital may be a good hospital but would fit in one corner of the Tx Medical Center and never be seen. My biggest concern right now is getting out of Houston before TSHTF. I can't do any prepping here in an RV but at least Chubby Hubby is healed up enough now that we could hook up and get outta Dodge. And let me hear of one case here and we are gone. Everyone in this RV park is a patient at one of the TX Med center hospitals. So this park would be a great receiving station for the flu from all of the various hospitals.

Taz...who carries mask, gloves, etc with her and has become a compulsive hand washer.
 

Safecastle

Emergency Essentials Store
Stephen said:
Please correct me if I'm wrong ... and so on ...
Again, if anyone has a reliable source to show that I'm wrong here, please let me know. I'm not here to puncture balloons, but to learn myself. I just don't want to "learn" sensationalized fantasy.
Stephen, this is the second time in less than 24 hours you've seemingly "called me out" to prove myself to you. What the heck, I've got NOTHING better to do ;) , so I will do so again here so you don't have to go to the trouble of doing your own follow-up. :shr:

Your silver platter, sir:

Michael Osterholm (various topics):

pbs interview on bioterrorism ...
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/plague/interviews/osterholm.html

featured speaker at a university function held in cooperation with a Nobel Laureate organization, topic, bioterrorism (before it was fashionable to speak of it) ...
http://www.augsburg.edu/about/news-archive/sat_seminars.html

this recent article on the flu, written for the insurance industry is by Osterholm and a co-author (see the mini bio at the end of the article ... Steve Quayle he is not)
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BJK/is_5_16/ai_n13650575 ...

A wicked strain: the projected number of U.S. deaths as a result of an influenza pandemic is more than 1.7 million over an 18-month period. Nearly half of those victims will be between the ages of 15 and 44. The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention estimate the economic impact to the United States at $71.3 billion to $166.5 billion
Risk & Insurance, April 15, 2005 by Michael T. Osterholm, Erik Rasmussen

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Since 1580, there have been 31 instances where new influenza viruses have emerged from their natural reservoir--wild aquatic birds--and through genetic reassortment in intermediary hosts such as pigs, have "jumped" to human populations with marked increases in human deaths. This change in ability to kill humans is related to a lack of any protective immunity and genetic factors of the virus. The end result in an increase in the number of deaths in healthy individuals between the ages of 18 and 30.

In the last century, the "Spanish flu" pandemic of 1918-1919 killed 50 million to 100 million people. Of those, about 500,000 were in the United States. Although the number of deaths is often noted as being between 20 million and 40 million, more recent critical analyses support the higher number. The Asian flu pandemic in 1957 and the Hong Kong flu in 1968 each caused an estimated 2 million to 8 million deaths. Based on the current situation with avian influenza (a strain called H5N1) in Southeast Asia, influenza experts worldwide believe the conditions are "very ripe" for another pandemic to occur within the next several years. Although the bird strains of influenza virus have not yet genetically reassorted to result in human-to-human transmission of the virus, this is all that remains before another pandemic will occur. To date, 43 human eases of H5N1 infection in Vietnam and Thailand have occurred as a result of direct exposure to infected birds; 28 have died. The patients have many similarities to the patient age and disease severity of the 1918-1919 pandemic. The projected number of deaths as a result of another influenza pandemic, based on the 1918 data, is more than 1.7 million in the United States over an 18-month period (see table). The most staggering figure from this estimate is that nearly 50 percent of those deaths will occur among people between the ages of 15 and 44. This segment of the population is typically considered to be the group that is least affected by influenza.

The World Health Organization estimates that between one-quarter and one-third of the world's population will become infected by an influenza pandemic, causing between 16 million and 21 million deaths worldwide. Recently, a senior WHO official in Southeast Asia indicated that between 30 million and 100 million people would die worldwide with the future pandemic. When people hear projected death tolls in the millions from the influenza, many simply dismiss the predictions as far-fetched doomsday scenarios. In today's society, we tend to believe that modern medicine can conquer or control anything. Despite medical advances since the 1918 influenza pandemic, medical science is still unable to cope with the severe disease associated with influenza and many will die within 48 hours of the onset of the disease.

The 2004 flu vaccine shortage in the United States demonstrated the vulnerabilities in the vaccine production and distribution system. The public health and health-care delivery systems were unprepared, rationing was implemented and the public was disturbed by the shortages, providing only a snapshot of the situation and ensuing panic that could result from a larger epidemic.

Regardless of which risk model you use, an influenza pandemic will result in the biggest insurance loss ever--bigger than even the World Trade Center disaster. An extremely conservative estimate by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, using the lowest of estimates of pandemic-associated deaths, determined the overall economic impact to the United States at $71.3 billion to $166.5 billion, not including disruption to commerce and society.

It's hard not to get fixated on the numbers, especially when forecasting models that vary so widely. The issue is that when a pandemic occurs, large numbers of people will be ill quickly. Many will need medical care and a hospital bed. A panicked population will be afraid to go outside, let alone to work or go overseas.

Global trade will slow to a standstill. In addition to direct health costs, indirect costs resulting from lost productivity when large numbers of workers are out sick or die will be significant. Replacing those lost permanently to the workforce will cause economic disruption and might add considerable costs to the overall national economic loss. Vaccination and ant/viral drugs can reduce influenza morbidity and mortality, but their initial availability will be extremely limited. The large-scale production of a new pandemic vaccine, if even possible, will take several months.

Influenza experts from around the world warn that the international vaccine system is inadequate and that hospitals lack surge capacity. They believe pandemic preparedness efforts are moving too slowly and that governments and vaccine companies are dismissing the potential disaster as merely hypothetical. At the same time, the WHO is urging preparations for a pandemic as a matter of national security.

Projected Influenza-AssociatedDeaths in the United StatesBased on the 1918-1919 ExperienceAge in Years Projected Deaths<5 113,3005-14 74,55315-24 214,58225-34 378,63935-44 268,60245-54 43,94855-65 123,451>65 4,313,689Total 11,763,664Source: U.S. Dept. of Health and Human ServicesRELATED ARTICLE: Identifying the symptoms of a persistent pest.

Each year the world experiences the annual influenza season in their respective winter seasons, December through March in the northern hemisphere, and June through September in the southern hemisphere.

Influenza is a contagious respiratory illness caused by a family of viruses. The influenza virus spreads in respiratory droplets from coughing and sneezing as well as touching something with the virus on it and then touching one's mouth or eyes.

Influenza usually starts suddenly and typically includes the following symptoms; high fever, headache, tiredness, cough, sore throat, runny nose and body aches. Occasionally diarrhea and vomiting occur, though these symptoms are more common in children. (For more information on influenza, including pandemic influenza, log on to www.cidrap. umn.edu.)

Complications stemming from influenza include bacterial pneumonia, dehydration and worsening of some chronic conditions such as congestive heart failure, asthma and diabetes.

Each year, an estimated 36,000 Americans die of influenza or complications from infection. Most deaths tend to be in the very young or elderly populations.

The best way to prevent influenza is get a flu shot each year. However, because the normally circulating influenza viruses are constantly undergoing slight genetic changes (i.e. antigenic drift) we need to make a new influenza vaccine each year.

It typically takes approximately eight months from identifying the new strains of the virus to incorporating them into the vaccine, to the final production of the reformulated vaccine. Currently on a worldwide basis, there is only industry capacity to produce about 330 million doses of vaccine each year. To increase this capacity will take a major investment.

MICHAEL T. OSTERHOLM is the director of the Center for Infectious Disease Research and Policy associate director of the Department of Homeland Security's National Center for Food Protection and Defense and professor at the University of Minnesota's School of Public Health.

ERIK RASMUSSEN is vice president of risk management for ING Re's Group Life, Accident and Health Reinsurance operation in Minneapolis. He can be reached at erik.rasmussen@ing-re.com.

COPYRIGHT 2005 Axon Group
COPYRIGHT 2005 Gale Group



There's plenty more to be found on Osterholm simply by typing his name into your favorite search engine.

In fact, type in "osterholm" and "bunker" and you'll get scores of results from his famous quote earlier this year. Here is just one such reference from a doctor's site that has a pretty scary perspective taking in other reputable sources as well ... (note that he calls Osterholm our nation's top expert) ...


http://www.drgreger.org/june2005.html
... The global mortality from the 1918 pandemic has recently been revised upwards to as many as 100 million people dead.[52] Experts fear this new virus may turn out many times more deadly. "This is the worst flu virus I have ever seen or worked with or read about," one virology chair who has been studying avian influenza strains for decades told a reporter. "We have to prepare as if we're going to war and the public needs to understand that clearly... if this does happen, and I fully expect it will, there will be no place for any of us to hide. Not in the United States or in Europe or in a bunker somewhere. The virus is a very promiscuous and efficient killer."[53] The top Russian virologist offers a potential death count: "Up to one billion people could die around the whole world in six months... We are half a step away from a worldwide pandemic catastrophe."[54]

Dr. Michael Osterholm, director of the U.S. Center for Infectious Disease Research and Policy, is probably our nation's top expert. He continues to make attempts to describe the ensuing unimaginable horror. He suggests people consider the devastation of the recent tsunamis in South Asia: "Duplicate it in every major urban centre and rural community around the planet simultaneously, add in the paralyzing fear and panic of contagion, and we begin to get some sense of the potential of pandemic influenza.[55] An influenza pandemic of even moderate impact will result in the biggest single human disaster ever--far greater than AIDS, 9/11, all wars in the 20th century and the recent tsunami combined. It has the potential to redirect world history as the Black Death redirected European history in the 14th century."[56]

Nature is considered by many to be the most prestigious scientific journal in the world. They commissioned their senior reporter in Paris to write a fictional yet realistic account of how the pandemic could be expected to unfold. Writing as a blogger in December 2005, it's fiction, but not fantasy. Read it in full at http://www.nature.com/news/2005/050523/full/435400a.html.

According to the top experts in the world, these bird flu scenarios are not just Chicken Little stories. "We're not crying wolf," swears Canada's top expert, head of the national microbiology lab. "There is a wolf. We just don't know when it's coming."[57] The head of the CDC's International Emerging Infections Program in Thailand agrees: "The world just has no idea what it's going to see if this thing comes," he said, but then stopped. "When, really. It's when. I don't think we can afford the luxury of the word 'if' anymore. We are past 'if's."[58]

So what can we do? Almost all of the antibiotics ever created only work against bacteria. There are a few classes of drugs, including drugs like amantidine, that work against certain viruses as well. But the present bird flu virus has already evolved resistance to this first generation of antivirals. How? "The Chinese have been incorporating amantadine in their chicken feed, so we have lost that as a treatment," notes one U.S. flu expert.[59]

Scientists are pinning their hopes on oseltamavir (also known as Tamiflu), the best prospect in the latest generation of antiflu drugs. Unfortunately, there is not enough to go around. Made from star anise, a plant in limited global supply, there is now a two-year waiting list for new orders.[60] And the orders, of course, are coming from dozens of rich Western countries who are attempting to stockpile the drug,[61] not the poor countries like Vietnam where any pandemic is likely to start.

"The only effective way to stop a global pandemic is to stop it in Southeast Asia," writes the editorial board of the journal of the Canadian Medical Association. "Although likely to have only a limited effect, stockpiles of oseltamavir need to be created throughout Southeast Asia." Scientists reason that if the human outbreak can be caught early enough, maybe they could even stop it. Once the pandemic hits, writes one leader in the field, "School closure, quarantine, travel restrictions and so on are unlikely to be more effective than a garden hose in a forest fire."[62]

It's like a spark and a squirt gun, describes the director of the U.S. National Vaccine Program. "If you aim properly you can get the spark and be done with it. If you miss, though, the fire is going to spread and there is nothing you can do to stop it."[63] When a senior public-health official was asked if he could imagine the developed world sending its resources to combat the flu in Southeast Asia, the reply was, "Who are you kidding?"[64]

The Western world is continuing in its "narcissistic planning,"[65] ignoring pleas from the World Health Organization to pour resources into Southeast Asia.[66] The U.K., for example, is spending $700 million to stockpile antiviral drugs. That's ten times the entire health budget for Vietnam. In Cambodia, the total annual budget for a campaign to encourage citizens to report suspected cases of bird flu is about $3000.[67]

Once the outbreak spreads globally, though, stockpiles in rich countries will provide no more than a pandemic "speed bump."[68] Canada, for example, has ordered 20 million doses although they suspect they'd need more than 200 million.[69] Who's going to have access to the limited supply? Priority for prophylactic treatment goes first to "key decision makers."[70] The current U.S. stockpile would treat less than 2 percent of the population.[71] Some scientists are advocating it just be sold over the counter and let whomever can afford it have access.[72]

From the editorial board of one of the most prestigious medical journals in the world, "If the greatest pandemic in history is indeed on the horizon, that threat must be met by the most comprehensive public-health plan ever devised."[73] If one reads the behind-the-scenes policy journals like Foreign Affairs, though, senior officials admit that planning for what they call "the most catastrophic outbreak in human history" is "abysmally inadequate."[74] Realizing that given the current political situation the prospects for preventing the pandemic are practically nonexistent, chief scientists like Osterholm are going to the business community to at least work on providing an infrastructure for survivors of what is being predicted in policy journals as the "shutdown of the global economic system."[75]

Speaking to a conference of agricultural bankers, Osterholm laid it all out: "This is going to be the most catastrophic thing in my lifetime. When this situation unfolds, we will shut down global markets overnight. There will not be movement of goods; there will not be movement of people. This will last for at least a year, maybe two."[76]

If we can't stop a human outbreak once it's started, can we stop a human outbreak in the first place? The WHO advises that "[p]revention of... avian influenza in humans is best achieved by controlling infection in poultry." [77] At this stage though, with over a hundred million birds dead so far and confirmed spread into migratory wild bird populations, this prospect seems similarly untenable. [78]

Asia provides a veritable genetic-reassortment laboratory for the virus--the mix of an unprecedented number of people, pigs, and poultry. "It is sobering to realize," Osterholm writes, "that in 1968, when the most recent influenza pandemic occurred, the virus emerged in a China that had a human population of 790 million, a pig population of 5.2 million, and a poultry population of 12.3 million; today, these populations number 1.3 billion, 508 million, and 13 billion, respectively. Similar changes have occurred in the human and animal populations of other Asian countries, creating an incredible mixing vessel for viruses."[79] In that kind of environment, New Yorker reporter Michael Specter wrote that "one sneeze from a pig could be enough to start a pandemic."

Large commercial poultry operations provide an ideal spawning ground for new pandemic strains. Tens of thousands of broiler-type chickens are crammed into large sheds. Because they live in their own manure, the virus has an opportunity to be excreted in the feces and then breathed in or swallowed by the thousands of other birds, allowing the virus to rapidly and repeatedly circulate. With so many birds to mutate within and pass back and forth, low virulence strains can readily turn into deadly ones.[80]

Describing another deadly animal-to-human virus that arose in Asia, this one in 1999, the Thai Minister of Public Health explains: "A hundred years ago, the Nipah virus would have simply emerged and died out; instead it was transmitted to pigs and amplified. With modern agriculture, the pigs are transported long distances to slaughter. And the virus goes with them." And countries trying to protect their poultry industries have covered up their outbreaks, making it that much more difficult to stem the tide early.[81]

Charun Boonyarithikarn is another senior Thai public-health officer. "Chickens used to live in our backyards," he told a New Yorker reporter. "They didn't travel much. Now, throughout the world, farms have become factories. Millions of chickens are shipped huge distances every day. We can't stop every chicken or duck or pig. And they offer millions of opportunities for pathogens to find a niche."

Dr Samuel Jutzi of the Food and Agriculture Organization told the conference: "There is an increasing risk of avian influenza spread that no poultry-keeping country can afford to ignore."[82] Vietnam has already banned duck and goose farming, but this may be a case of too little too late.[83] Another pandemic may force humanity to realize that it may have to give up the habit of raising birds completely.

In response to the February 28, 2005 lead New Yorker story on the threat of bird flu, staff writer Michael Specter was asked if, based on his research, we would "have to rethink such things as large-scale poultry farming?" He replied Well, I can't imagine a better prescription for killing large numbers of animals with a single disease than packing tens of thousands of them into factory farms where they are lucky if they have fifteen inches of personal space. Still, the economic incentives toward factory production of food are huge--we want cheap meat. So it's going to be very difficult to change."[89] So what does the poultry industry think about the possibility of its own industry leading to a worldwide epidemic that kills millions of people? The Executive Editor of Poultry magazine wrote an editorial on that very subject in its last issue: "The prospect of a virulent flu to which we have absolutely no resistance is frightening. However, to me, the threat is much greater to the poultry industry. I'm not as worried about the U.S. human population dying from bird flu as I am that there will be no chicken to eat."[84]


So I'll rephrase my questions/concerns--I do know I've seen reputable sources discussing the airborne capabilities and long-life of flu virus in the wild. It may or may not be an important issue in THE dreaded flu pandemic, but it certainly seems the true experts are saying there's not really much that can be done once the virus starts spreading (and maybe even before it starts spreading).
 

Bill P

Inactive
JC - Excellent response.

Alan and others - I have already reduced travel as I can to a great extent affect my own work schedule and increased tele-computing contact with key customers.

As we have mused before - I dont think a mortgage co. will foreclose at the height of a pandemic - who would want to visit your house? Just like local energy compnaies have agreed not to pull the plug on a later payee during the height of a heat/cold wave...

Actually as more and more hunker in the bunker, the flu/virii would have less possible targets so the pandemic might be drawn out over longer time periods, exhausting ones preps. Maybe one would be better to bugout with as much preps as possible and move to an island that could seal itself off from the mainland.

Here in Ohio I am thinking the Bass Islands off shore in Lake Erie might be nice this Fall....
 

Safecastle

Emergency Essentials Store
Was looking for some specific info out there about the flu being an airborne-transmitted disease. There's much to look at on it. It seems the experts are still wrasslin' with the issue's specifics.

But here's an interesting piece I came across that deals not only with airborne transmission, but with the fact that surgical masks aren't likely to provide much protection either.

http://www.nycosh.org/UPDATE/printableUpdate.php?updateid=105
 

Stephen

Inactive
Stephen, this is the second time in less than 24 hours you've seemingly "called me out" to prove myself to you. What the heck, I've got NOTHING better to do , so I will do so again here so you don't have to go to the trouble of doing your own follow-up.

Your silver platter, sir:

Please accept my apologies if I've offended you in some way. I certainly didn't intend to, and I'm really not sure what you're referring to. Regardless, I'm sure you wouldn't have said that if I hadn't said something that was taken the wrong way, so for that, I apologize. I still don't know what it was that I said, but I hope you'll accept that and we'll both get on with more important things.

As for your quoted reply, I'll let others comment on it rather than risk offending again.
 

CelticRose

Membership Revoked
I've been trying to figure out a way to address this very potential situation to my husband....... He has Non-Ischemic Cardiomyopathy/ CHF/ PAT/ Type II Diabetes and PTSD (100% service connected disabled)......All of whihc require numerous visits to the VA hospital and clinic...... While I have serious reservations regarding some of the practices within the VA hospital he uses; I respect that they are grossly under funded and under staffed for the increasing patient load they need to handle.

So............. I've tried to explain to my husband that he shouldn't consider the flu vaccination he recieved last fall as any level of protection from the possible coming pandemic.....

I've tried to wiegh the issues......... Currently I don't work outside the home. From the first sign of a possible pandemic; I would make sure I was the only person leaving / entering our home......... I would make sure we were as prepped as possible....... And I would institute an even higher level of hygiene that we currently observe.........

Unless my husbands' health demanded a trip to the hospital (life saving trip to the ER, for example) ...........I would all but do a full body block, on him leaving the house......

I take the potential for a full blown pandemic, to be very likely. Perhaps because I tend to view these things as cyclic in nature.....
 

RC

Inactive
I don't know the answer, but I have given this question a lot of thought. Frankly, I can think of a lot of scenarios where mortgage companies would be foreclosing mortgages at the height of a pandemic. They might delay actually taking possession of the property, but most of the process involves spitting papers out of a word processor. Even if they know it's the "height of a pandemic," they could probably manage to do this.

Also, I'm not worried so much about the height of the pandemic. At that point, it's quite possible that the government would intervene and place a moritorium on such actions. (We could argue all day about whether they could legally do so, but it is a possibility.)

But the main problem is that their business would continue during the early phases. If I'm expected to be at work, then I would suspect that the people at the mortgage company are also expected to be at work. If I decide to "lock the gate" the same day they do, great. But I doubt if it will work out that way.

I suspect that very few people (including many of those here who think they will) will actually go home and "lock the gate" in time. In my case, what I plan to do is watch the situation daily, and adapt my precautions to the level of risk. In doing so, I will not be able to isolate myself entirely from any risk. What I intend to do is _reduce_ the risk.

In other words, I can't guarantee that I'll not be exposed to the virus. But I can reduce the chances. Also, it seems to me that if I'm going to be exposed to the virus, it's better for me to inhale a hundred viri, as opposed to inhaling a million of them.

In my case, if I "locked the gate," I could probably get by for six months. For example, I could get cash advances from a credit card or cash in an IRA to pay the mortgage. (If the mortgage company is still operating, then chances are, so is the credit card company.) But if I guessed wrong, and there was no pandemic, I would be in a very bad position.

So instead, I intend to take some or all of these precautions. I think I would need to decide on a day-to-day basis which was appropriate.

--Adjust the hours I go out to minimize exposure. Instead of working 9 AM to 5 PM, I suspect the exposure would be considerably less if I worked 10 PM to 6 AM. I might need a non-pandemic related reason, although I'm sure I could come up with something.

--Do some or all work at home.

--Wear a mask, not to filter out every last virus, but something like a surgical mask to reduce exposure.

--Quarantine the rest of the family from the rest of the world

--Decontaminate (in other words, undress and shower) outside the house

--Quarantine the rest of the family from me. (In other words, live in the garage).

I think my first step would be adjusting my work schedule. Fortunately, that's possible for me to do.
 

night driver

ESFP adrift in INTJ sea
I think we can go back and use 1917 and 1918 as a model. If someone can back-stop me on this I'd be obliged, but my MEMORY is that there were at least two breakout attempts of the grippe in 1917 or 1916, before the huge breakout at the Army base where they incinerated al the dung.
At the same time there were breakouts in Europe and then it spread from the breakout points.

Given the accelerated pace of transportation, I SUSPECT we'll see prelim breakouts in several parts of the world this fall-winter and next spring WHUMP.

Now, we could ALREADY be seeing hte prelim breakouts in China and Russia, and get hammered this winter, but my Polly Hat sez late spring or next season, with prelim breakouts, which will be ruthlessly quashed, and everyone will pat themselves on the back for having saved the Universe.

My comment ojn Alan's scenario.

I REALLY think we're nearer Summer 1917 than Spring 1918.

And THAT prolly makes me a Polly.
 

Anjou

Inactive
Hansa44 said:
In order to prolong your life, I recommend "DO NOT GO TO ANY RESTAURANTS" !!!

This alone is a good reason to have food preps.

Also, something about prepping by accumulating vacation time, or negotiating for more now. There may come a point when you'd like to schedule some time off for prudence's sake, and it very well may be before most people start to think about similar, so you may be able to do so under 'vacation' time.

crawlingtoy said:
How did humans survive pandemics before? By being healthy? I would imagine a good exercise and diet routine would get you pretty far, but I don't know. It is survival of the fittest after all.

Something about bird flu wreaking havoc particularly with healthy immune systems, so survival of the fittest may not apply quite like expected here. Also, to answer your question, there's some theory that different blood types evolved that were more suited to urban situations - that is, more resistant to communicable disease - than other types.

By the way, has anyone seen a historical 'diary' someone kept during a flu pandemic? That might be interesting to read, a first person account of what happened when and who was thinking what.
 

vampire

Inactive
I for one will stock up on vitamins and food, ask my doctor buddy for a prescription of whatever antiviral prescription is recommended and some antibiotics for secondary infections, find the closest recovering flu victim, and give them a great big kiss on the nostrils...or something like that. I want to catch this from a person, preferably one that got the flu from another human and is recovering. Trying to avoid it for the next X amount of years seems impossible if not foolish especially with so many possible transmission vectors. If I die, then I die and probably would have in the coming weeks/months/years anyway, if not then I get on with my life and don't live out so many precious days in fear.



JC Refuge said:
So here are my questions, Alan--since the bird flu infects a number of wild animals, and is in fact an airborne virus that can carry a great distance (don't really know the limitations/definition on that), does a plan to withdraw and hole up somewhere do any good at all? And if in fact if it does help at least to some degree to try to isolate yourself--can you really expect to ride it out without exposure and come out on the other side and hope that the virus isn't still there in the environment?

These flu epidemics/pandemics for given flu variants tend to be pretty long-lived and sometimes take years to run their course in human beings. I'm wondering if they just continue to be present as a "factor" till everyone is exposed and either gets sick or doesn't but develops the antibodies to it so that developed immunities eventually make the bad boy of the moment peter out into a non-factor in the human population.

An epidemiologist I am not ... but Michael Osterholm is, and a rather famous one at that. Months ago he was quoted nationally as saying something to the effect of, "... you couldn't even escape the virus if you planned to spend weeks in a bunker."

If this is indeed mostly true, then it seems the only real prep you can do is to try to get ahold of some Tamiflu ... but it would seem that even relying on that is tricky ... to have to determine when to take it since I believe you are supposed to take it within two days of being exposed to the flu. How do you know that for sure?
 

Synap

Deceased
Given that H5N1 is not quite the same thing thing as your ordinary flu, but perhaps it's good to keep a bit of influenza victims numbers perspective in mind when considering a pandemics effect on economies. IMO, the greater danger is PANIC! when your local herd hears of someone turning black and bleeding from all orifaces. Their stampede may kill more numbers than the virus.

Anyway...
Every year in the United States , on average:
5% to 20% of the population gets the flu;
more than 200,000 people are hospitalized from flu complications, and;
about 36,000 people die from flu.

http://www.cdc.gov/flu/keyfacts.htm
 

connie

Veteran Member
I have a book on the flu epidemic of 1918. You may need to rethink your timeline.IIRC, there were a few cases and then it quickly went to hundreds. Everyone should be prepared to move quickly.

Most people will play it down.My family is spread out and it is worrisome My husband will work as long as he can - he is fairly isolated. If we have enough preps, we can just "stay in".
 

Seabird

Veteran Member
Wow, you've covered this from many perspectives. My biggest concern out of all of the views is the scenario of our own local worlds being expected to go on as if nothing was wrong. Do you defy? Or go on, having faith?

I believe that the reasons the US has not been hit with a cyclical epidemic is because we are healthier, stronger, and more aware. Did we get lucky with SARS (there were two strains--one deadlier than the other, and maybe the more dangerous strain didn't get here...which seems unlikely) or did the deadly strain come here and didn't have the power against the health oriented, vitamin taking, exercising, well vaccinated Americans?

How the situation plays out for each of us is going to be gut instinct. If you have little ones, or health-impaired members of your immediate family, you are more likely going to make decisions differently than if you don't.

Bottom line, this is very scary.

Seabird
 

old bear

Deceased
PANIC !

In 1918 we did not have the news or communication systems that we do today. IMHO a lot of the people in 1918 never knew how deadly or wide spread the flu really was. Otherwise healthy people continued to go to work while having the flu, and died. Apparently a good many of the people that stayed home in bed with the same flu did not die, which is kind of logical.
Anyway IMHO with our news today, I expect a panic to hit at some point and the sheeple to stampeed.
Of course TPTB will try not to let this happen, but they are caught between trying to limit the flu pandemic and not panicing the sheeple.

Assuming there were a panic, what would the outcome be?

Maybe runs on grocery stores as sheeple decided to suddenly stock up?

Gas prices going out of sight at least in the short term as the sheep rush to have their tanks full and maybe some gas stored at home?

I think it would be almost impossible to tell where the sheeple might stampeed in advance, but the odds are pretty good that they WILL stampeed.

SO, if we think this may be coming..................NOW is the time to be prepping for the bird flu.
DON'T listen to the nay sayers.

As my hero Bert Gumner says ....."Do what you can with what you've got.".

By starting now, the cost of prepping can be spread over several months, and you will have time to rethink things as you go along.
You also won't in the stampeed with the sheeple and that has to make things easier.

IMHO the bird flu is NOT "air borne" in the sence that it will drift down equally all over the world.

"Air borne" means that it can be passed by a cough, instead of having to have a infected person touching you.

Air borne means it is bad news for people on a plane with a infected person, but IMHO it does not mean that the flu wil come drifting out of a city and kill off people all over the countryside.

Of course anyone anyway connected with TPTB will tell people not to "Humker in a bunker", because they want people out doing what they do even if it kills them.
The gubbernut is not going to want people to "lock the gate", and will say and do anything to prevent it.

The bird flu may vary well be a long term problem. We may have it with us from now on, but people will build up immunities to it, just like we have to all the other's.

Eventually a vaccinte against this form of the bird flu will be developed.

The bird flu will mutate and another vaccine will have to be created, but it will be done.

If you think it is coming, start preparing now. Do the best you can. Learn everything that you can.
Don't let anybody convince you that preparing is useless, or that the situation is hopeless. Just because they want to give up, don't let them drag you down with them.

Humans did not claw their way to the top of the food chain by being wimps.
We as a species, are so bad that when we can't find any life forms mean enough to be a challenge, we fight each other.
This "bird flu" may kill some of us, but humans will survive, and those who prepared will be the most likely to be amoung the survivors.
 

LilRose8

Veteran Member
Crawlingtoy said:
I am NOT very smart about this stuff, but it seems like there would be NOTHING you could really do about this. Would you really want to be sheltered in a safe room for months or even years? I don't want to live like that.

How did humans survive pandemics before? By being healthy? I would imagine a good exercise and diet routine would get you pretty far, but I don't know. It is survival of the fittest after all.
No Crawlingtoy. Unfortunately, the youngest and strongest FREQUENTLY are the first to be affected and the first to die. It is due to a cytokine storm ( do a google ). So, saying that being in good health will save you is very misleading. Sorry to scare you. It is simply the way these things go. :shk:
 

LeViolinist

Veteran Member

Begin drinking 4-5 cups of this yummy stuff, now.
Lv

Antiviral properties of prodelphinidin B-2 3'-O-gallate from green tea leaf.


Graduate Institute of Pharmaceutical Science, College of Pharmacy, Kaohsiung Medical University, Kaohsiung, Taiwan, Republic of China.

Prodelphinidin B-2 3-O-gallate, a proanthocyanidin gallate isolated from green tea leaf, was investigated for its anti-herpes simplex virus type 2 properties in vitro. Prodelphinidin B-2 3'-O-gallate exhibited antiviral activity with IC50 of 5.0 +/-1.0 microM and 1.6 +/-0.3 pM for XTT and plaque reduction (PRA) assays, respectively. Cytotoxicity assay had shown that prodelphinidin B-2 3'-O-gallate possessed cytotoxic effect toward Vero cell at concentration higher than its IC50. The 50% cytotoxic concentration for cell growth (CC50) was 33.3 +/- 3.7 microM. Thus, the selectivity index (SI) (ratio of IC50 to CC50) for XTT assay and PRA was 6.7 and 20.8, respectively. Prodelphinidin B-2 3'-O-gallate significantly reduced viral infectivity at concentrations 10 microM or more. Result of time-of-addition studies suggested that prodelphinidin B-2 3'-O-gallate affected the late stage of HSV-2 infection. In addition, it was also shown to inhibit the virus from attaching and penetrating into the cell. Thus, prodelphinidin B-2 3'-O-gallate was concluded to possess antiviral activity with mechanism of inhibiting viral attachment and penetration, and disturbing the late stage of viral infection.

PMID: 12495210 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Antiviral properties of prodelphinidin B-2 3'-O-gallate from green ...
Prodelphinidin B-2 3-O-gallate, a proanthocyanidin gallate isolated from green
tea leaf, was investi...
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=12495210&dopt=Abstract
Cheng HY, Lin CC, Lin TC.
 

Stephen

Inactive
My Dad remembers folks talking about the flu epidemic (he was 4 years old at the time), and they were on a small farm in the hills of Alabama. On the other hand, unlike many in that situation, my grandfather was really big on reading and they always managed to have a newspaper in the house - even if it was several weeks old. A newspaper and Progressive Farmer magazine.

Point is, that even back then, people knew what was going on.
 

prudentwatcher

Veteran Member
Well, they knew something was going on , but they didn't know what. I just finished that chapter in my book on the flu epidemic. You have to remember it was wartime and the economy and press and everything was under the control of the government. Papers were told to print only good news and generic info. The government thought that giving specific info out would aid the Germans in the war effort. The info on what to do was minimal and somewhat misleading (breathe deeply of good air for example). And there was the problem for a long time that they simply did not know what was going on and what they needed to do. At the height of epidemics in different cities there were quotes from the Health Department that things were getting better, few people were dying, the government had found a cure, etc. That was the problem: people knew there was something wrong but they weren't getting the information, but they could see what was going on, so they panicked and were fearful and that led to it's own problems.
 

Fuzzychick

Membership Revoked
The point is folks...it's coming...we don't know when but we continue to get info out of China, my biggest concern is if it indeed include to have pigs in the mix...JMHO...BRB...
 

Fuzzychick

Membership Revoked
Back, sorry kids first...the Bird Flu is coming, I still continue to state it and again I will for any and all interested in learning about it...again I am not representing a forum only wishing to help those interested...curevents.com....go to the flu thread...Dennis, I'm not taking away anyone here, only trying to help all those interested prepare...you and D'Anne included...Love Fuzzy
 

lafrteacher

Inactive
The new "swine flu" deaths in China have me worried. What if the bird flu has combined with strep suis bacteria? Many viruses piggyback bacteria for transmission and infection. Those chinese farmers shouldn't have been susceptable to a pig bacteria that they've been exposed to their entire lives. 10-hours from infection to death time doesn't sound right, either.
 
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