What YOU can do to get better stories

A.T.Hagan

Inactive
To the readers:

Would you like to improve the quality of the stories that are available here in the Members Stories forum?

If you would then here's what you gotta do.

As an author of several stories here in this forum and having read similar comments from other authors here I can tell you one of the most difficult things for a story author to get is meaningful feedback about a given story that has been written.

It's always nice to hear that you liked a story but I do not believe that any of us here think we've written the perfect story. There is nearly always room for improvement so post a note in the commentary thread for a given story and tell us where we need to improve!

Now, I'm not talking about critiquing grammar and spelling but rather these kinds of things:

Did we botch a name somewhere? Start out calling a character one thing then call them something else later in the story?

Maybe a character has appendicitis and I put the appendix in the wrong place?

How about character development? Does a given character seem real to you? Wooden? Two dimensional?

How about interactions? If I'm writing about a female character and you see something that you think a female would be unlikely to say or do then speak up! Maybe I'll think you are right or I may explain why I did what I did.

Plot development can be a real chore to smooth out. Does a given story plot work for you? Seen implausible? Tell us what you think.

How about semiautomatic revolvers? Technical glitches about all kinds of things creep in and sometimes don't get noticed.

Time travel happens a lot in stories too. Sometimes we just get the dates and/or times messed up and don't see it, but you might.

I hope you are getting the drift of what I and the other story authors are looking for. None of us think we got it perfectly right the first time. Many of these stories are written on the fly so to speak in that you often get to see a story post just minutes after it was written! Very easy for mistakes to creep in and it's pretty common not to find them until long afterwards, sometimes so long afterwards that it's not possible to correct them without major rewrites to smooth everything out again.

It's always nice to get positive feedback about how well you liked a story, but what authors really need is meaningful feedback. If you like it then please do say so, but at the same time tell us where we could improve too. The more we here from you the better the stories will gradually become.

.....Alan.
 

Christian for Israel

Knight of Jerusalem
amen alan, meaningful comments also show that people are really reading the story. anyone can say 'thanks, great job', but only those who really get into the story catch mistakes.
 

Fleataxi

Deceased
Alan: the only thing I could add is if your comment is REALLY negative - please PM the author instead of posting your reply. :eek:

We really live for comments here. It's how our stories get better, and it's one of our few motivations to write stories for free.

Thanks to all the readers!

Fleataxi
 

Infoscout

The Dude Abides
What would help me tremendously would be that people use the comments thread for comments. I may want to go back and read my story, before posting the next one, in hopes of keeping things strait. Now in my story, Downgrade, I have readers comments in between chapters. If I answer the comments, it looks like I have posted a chapter. I am extremely flattered that people read and take the time to post an atta boy, but please use the comments section for the "where is the next chapter" comments.



Thanks!
 

RiJoRi

Inactive
>> What would help me tremendously would be that people use the comments thread for comments.

Is it possible to move single notes to another thread?

--Rich
 

A.T.Hagan

Inactive
Yes, if you have comments in one of your story threads that you would like moved into a commentary thread I can do it for you. Send me a PM with the specific URLS of the posts you would like to have moved. They'll show up in the comments thread in the chronological order they were posted to the board. If you look at the comments thread for my <i>Forever After</i> story you'll see what I mean.

It may take me a few days to get to them as it's something of a tedious process.

.....Alan.
 

fruit loop

Inactive
A few common mistakes

Bad grammar and poor punctuation CAN kill a good story.

Use of passive tense. Has, had been, was..... I feel like I'm hearing about something that's already happened. Lots of "hads" and "Thats" can and should be eliminated. Before you use those words, re-read the sentence....you may be able to delete it entirely.

ACTION, ACTION, ACTION. Use exciting words. Get a thesaurus or The Synonym Finder and find something more descriptive that says the same thing.
Instead of: John ran down the hall
USE: Choking on his fear, John sprinted through the building desperately searching.....

Show, don't tell. Make us feel what the characters are feeling...horrible pain, euphoric joy. Describe the setting....the alley smells horrible from rotting trash.

HAVE FUN. If you don't, we won't either.
 

A.T.Hagan

Inactive
Very good, Fruit Loop!

Now, can you give some specific examples in the relevant story commentary threads?

.....Alan.
 

fruit loop

Inactive
Don't want to criticize individual works

I'll refrain from pointing out any specific examples on this board out of respect for fellow writers who have EXCELLENT story ideas. Some folks should brush up on craft a bit, but we all need to do that. It's a never-ending process.

Wish me luck and say prayers, everybody. I have two manuscripts at Dorchester Publishing and another at Avon (division of Random House).
 

Christian for Israel

Knight of Jerusalem
fruit loop, i specifically give you permission to point out specific examples in my work (i already know it could use some help). in fact, i'd appreciate it immensely. and even if a comment is severely critical i still want to see it here on the board.
 

Jmurman

Veteran Member
I certainly appreciate comments and am always trying to hone my craft.

As a novice writer, I personally am spurred on by the comments that lead me to believe that my story can make you think, or feel emotion. That to me is the greatest compliment.
 

Cardinal

Chickministrator
_______________
fruit loop said:
I'll refrain from pointing out any specific examples on this board out of respect for fellow writers who have EXCELLENT story ideas. Some folks should brush up on craft a bit, but we all need to do that. It's a never-ending process.

Wish me luck and say prayers, everybody. I have two manuscripts at Dorchester Publishing and another at Avon (division of Random House).

So let us know how it turns out for you. G'luck.
 

Tessa Blue

Veteran Member
fruit loop said:
I'll refrain from pointing out any specific examples on this board out of respect for fellow writers who have EXCELLENT story ideas. Some folks should brush up on craft a bit, but we all need to do that. It's a never-ending process.

Wish me luck and say prayers, everybody. I have two manuscripts at Dorchester Publishing and another at Avon (division of Random House).
fruit loop - that's wonderful! What's your genre?
 

fruit loop

Inactive
On writing

Thanks, everyone. I write historicals, romance, and fantasy. No novels published yet although I HAVE published short stories, poetry, and nonfiction articles. I cross genres....the one at Avon is a Historical/American Indian/Western/Romance. I have high hopes for that one because I got advice from the Comanche Language and Cultural Preservation Committe and they edited it for me. I told them if they hated it or found anything offensive I'd fix it or trash the novel entirely. They asked for a very few changes and said did NOT object to it.

Okay, I'll go back over the stories and post some suggestions. Keep in mind that NO writer is really an expert and you're just getting opinions. Every writer's style is different and, in the words of Frederik Pohl, "Nothing is so wonderful that somebody, somewhere, won't hate it."

Remember that every major studio turned down "Star Wars" at first. Margaret Mitchell sat on "Gone With the Wind" and only let a publisher see it at her husband's insistence.

NEVER STOP WRITING and NEVER GIVE UP.
 

A.T.Hagan

Inactive
Opinions are what we want!

We may or may not use what anyone says, but it's ALWAYS good to have feedback. As you know when you're the one doing the writing sometimes you're just too close to the story to really see it clearly.

.....Alan.
 

fruit loop

Inactive
Okay, you asked for it.....

Christian for Israel, you've got a great story. The only thing I see is the way it's worded....you use a lot of HADs and WASes (I can related to this habit - I have to de-had and de-that my manuscripts!!!). This makes it sound like you're describing something that's already happened, and gives me, the reader, like something big happened and I missed it.

I suggest making it more active....make the reader part of the story. Paint a vivid picture of the feelings, smells, sounds.

For instance, you begin like this:

Chapter 1
Jack Mitchell was a thirty-eight year-old recent divorcee, who was considered by most to be rather odd. That was probably fairly accurate. Jack believed in being prepared, something most people thought unnecessary. It was more than an idea to Jack, it was his life. He had spent most of his life, and a considerable amount of his parent's money on getting ready. Ready for what? Well, ready for anything. Jack didn't have a specific event to prepare for, as far as he was concerned, there were many things that could happen. As a result, his preparations covered a broad spectrum.

And now it seemed that Jack had had the last laugh, if anyone could laugh at recent events. No one knew where the plague had come from, but before anyone knew it, it had swept the globe. Now Jack was headed for his shelter home, returning from a trip to visit friends. The plague had come upon the world quickly, and Jack had decided to hunker down where he was, at first just to avoid other people, then later to care for his friends as they caught the bug and eventually died of it. The miracle of it all was that Jack seemed to be immune to it, whatever it was.

Jack was driving his "bug out" vehicle, a 1967 Uni-mog. The 'mog' was an ugly beast of a truck, a 4WD built in Europe as a general purpose farm and utility vehicle. It had a 90 hp 'multi-fuel' diesel engine, power take-off winches front and rear, and 17 inches of clearance underneath. It could just about go anywhere.

Driving home, he had decided from the start to avoid the major roads, and in keeping with his preparedness mindset, had an alternate route all laid out. The route would take him through the "blank" national forest for at least half of his journey, which should help him to avoid people problems.

HOW ABOUT SOMETHING LIKE THIS? Seems a bit more personal.

Chapter 1
Most people considered Jack Mitchell rather odd...a fairly accurate assessment. His belief in always being prepared, which most people thought unnecessary, was more than a belief....it was his life. He had spent most of his thirty-eight years, and a considerable amount of his parents' money, on getting ready. Ready for what? Well, anything, except maybe his recent divorce. Jack didn't need a specific event to prepare for; as far as he was concerned, "anything can happen. " As a result, his preparations covered a broad spectrum.

"Now it seems I've had the last laugh, if anyone can laugh at recent events," he muttered grimly as he drove. "Now I'm headed for my shelter instead of enjoying a leisurely, restful trip home from visiting my friends!" Grief stung again. He'd hunkered down to care for his friends, only to watch them die. His apparent immunity to whatever-it-was mixed relief with survivor guilt and tremendous loss.

He slowed his "bug out" vehicle, a 1967 Uni-mog, to scope out the terrain. "Thank goodness I saw beneath your skin, my ugly friend." The 4WD, built in Europe as a general purpose farm and utility vehicle, was his smartest purchase to date. Its 90 hp 'multi-fuel' diesel engine, power take-off winches front and rear, and 17 inches of clearance underneath, plus its ability to go just about anywhere, made it one gorgeous babe in Jack's book.

Driving home, he decided from the start to avoid the major roads, and in keeping with his preparedness mindset, had an alternate route all laid out. The route would take him through the "blank" national forest for at least half of his journey, which should help him avoid people problems such as looters, thieves, and those folks who thrived on other folks' misfortunes.

In the second part, you use dialogue very well to move things along. Suggest dropping some of the dialogue tags "he said" "the girl said." There are only two people talking and we know who they are. You also keep calling her "the girl." Suggest using her name or "she" more often. We know she's female.

Use the "Show don't tell" rule a bit more. You sometimes drag people out of the action in order to explain things, like Jack being divorced. Drop them in unobstrusively, or tell back story in dialogue.

I really like your story! Keep at it!
 
The only thing I can add to this thread, is a hearty "Thank You" to Fruit Loop.

She seems to be very well "typed " and seems to know of which she speaks.

That she deems fit to contribute to this forum is, in my opinion, a huge benefit
 

fruit loop

Inactive
No, thank YOU, Ultraconservative....

....for making me welcome here. I enjoy the great company and fabulous entertainment.

Just spent four hours hunched over my keyboard and wrote exactly two paragraphs. My current WIP is making me sweat blood......

Off to enjoy some more great doomer fiction!
 
fruit loop said:
....for making me welcome here. I enjoy the great company and fabulous entertainment.

Just spent four hours hunched over my keyboard and wrote exactly two paragraphs. My current WIP is making me sweat blood......

Off to enjoy some more great doomer fiction!


Damn, 2 paragraphs in four hours. That's some amazing production.


If I knew how to write, I would tell ya'll stories of how long some of my long tortured paragraphs took to massacre(sp? Laurane where are you?). :dvl1:
 

tsherry

Inactive
fruit loop said:
....for making me welcome here. I enjoy the great company and fabulous entertainment.

Just spent four hours hunched over my keyboard and wrote exactly two paragraphs. My current WIP is making me sweat blood......

Off to enjoy some more great doomer fiction!

Aaaahhh, but there are the days where you can smack out six thousand words in a sitting! Those days are worth it!

(Speaking now of course, as someone who's bludgeoned out three paragraphs in the last two hours....and who may toss said paragraphs in disgust).

Tom S.
Spokane ;)
 

Jmurman

Veteran Member
fruit loop said:
....for making me welcome here. I enjoy the great company and fabulous entertainment.

Just spent four hours hunched over my keyboard and wrote exactly two paragraphs. My current WIP is making me sweat blood......

Off to enjoy some more great doomer fiction!

I know exactly how that feels...
 
--Avoid adverbs as much as possible. The old saying is "show, don't tell". Adverbs "tell" the story. By eliminating adverbs, you are forced to "show" what's going on.

--Don't get fancy with dialogue tags, especially adverbs.

Okay: "Get outta here," Alan said.

Better: Alan spat on the floor. "Get outta here."

Bad: "Get outta here," Alan sneered, spitting on the floor. (how do you talk, sneer and spit all at the same time?)

Really bad: "Get outta here," Alan sneered derisively, spitting a juicy wad of phlegm on the floor.

Ewww: "Get outta here!" Alan exploded. (mop and bucket, anyone?)

By the time you write the phrase "get outta here", your reader should already know Alan's attitude.

--Don't use dialogue tags at all when it's obvious who's saying what.

"Get outta here, BK."

"Make me."

Alan spat on the floor. "Get outta here."

"I'll leave when I feel like it."

--Avoid exclamation points! They're not only annoying, they also "tell" rather than "show"!

--Don't switch tenses, as in switching from first person to third person, or from past tense to present tense. It interupts the flow and jars the reader. Be very careful writing in present tense--it's easy to lose your way.

--Be very careful with POV shifts. Don't shift from one character's point of view to another character's POV in the same section. Never shift from a limited POV to an omnicient POV.
 

fruit loop

Inactive
I disagree on the POV thing....

This is hot debate among some romance writers, who preach about "this is like a camera constantly switching from one person to another and confuses the reader..." One writer even goes around doing paid seminars on this because that's the way she writes and says openly she thinks it should be a "rule" for writers. (I hate her books, by the way)

Surveys among readers show the opposite, as do the seller charts. Read a "Star Trek" novel sometime....you get the POVs of the entire crew.

Most editors say they also ignore it, as long as clarity is not compromised.

This is a writer thing, not a reader thing, and remember that we write for the readers.

Writers, in their quest to be better writers, sometimes get hung up on things like this. Don't. Just write. Then go back and read it....if something's unclear, you'll catch it.
 
I don't object to multiple POVs in a novel--just not all in the same scene at the same time. As a reader, I find it disorienting.
 

Fleataxi

Deceased
Fruitloop: I've read this thread with interest. and really appreciate your advice. I find myself doing several things you've mentioned here as being no-no's or cliche's. Guess I've got some re-writing to do!

Fleataxi
 

FourDeuce

Inactive
Do your research, but do it for YOU

One of my pet peeves is an author who REALLY does a LOT of research for a story, then feels he did all that research, so he has to put too much of it into the story. I think you need to do enough research to understand the subject well(grok it):D , but that doesn't mean you have to actually have one of your characters in your story doing research on what YOU did research on for the story.:shk:
I haven't seen too many stories like that, but there are a few. I know it seems like a shame to let all that work go to waste, but there is such a thing as wasting story time giving too much background information. There's a time for background and there's a time for action.:siren:
 

Marine

Inactive
Hey fruit loop!

If you are interested in editing, I'd like you to take a look at my story. I need to revise and expand it. I've edited it myself several times, but after reading my own story repeatedly, I don't see anything wrong anymore and I know theres a ton of stuff that needs to be done to it.

Anyway, if your interested, PM me.

Marine
 

fruit loop

Inactive
Marine, I'd be honored

Your technique is real good. Story's a bit violent for me, but then that's just me...and you're a guy....there is a BIG market for your kind of fiction.

Also sending via PM.
 

Kathy in FL

Administrator
_______________
Reminding all of us writers out there that this is a good thread to read over. I know I'm guilty of about 90% of the flub-a-dubs mentioned here but then again my goal has never been to be a professional writer. My goal IS to have fun and to make something I write enjoyable for someone else to read. With that in mind I'm always up for some improvement.

Yes I make mistakes. I don't glory in them but I'm not going to let them destroy my psyche either. LOL! On the other hand, improvement never killed anyone so here's to watching out for the stereotypical flub-a-dubs so that folks can have a good time reading and letting off some stress rather than getting more bent out of shape because I've spewed out a piece of cankered tin foil for them to chew on.
 

RCSAR

Veteran Member
Being the selfish person I am.
I want to know how to make them write faster short of mailing them massive doses of ritalin.
 

SuElPo

Veteran Member
On writing

Thanks, everyone. I write historicals, romance, and fantasy. No novels published yet although I HAVE published short stories, poetry, and nonfiction articles. I cross genres....the one at Avon is a Historical/American Indian/Western/Romance. I have high hopes for that one because I got advice from the Comanche Language and Cultural Preservation Committe and they edited it for me. I told them if they hated it or found anything offensive I'd fix it or trash the novel entirely. They asked for a very few changes and said did NOT object to it.

Okay, I'll go back over the stories and post some suggestions. Keep in mind that NO writer is really an expert and you're just getting opinions. Every writer's style is different and, in the words of Frederik Pohl, "Nothing is so wonderful that somebody, somewhere, won't hate it."

Remember that every major studio turned down "Star Wars" at first. Margaret Mitchell sat on "Gone With the Wind" and only let a publisher see it at her husband's insistence.

NEVER STOP WRITING and NEVER GIVE UP.

This is my problem. I quickly give up, and then I don't write again until something very passionate stirs me. What does this say about me?
Susan
 

Cardinal

Chickministrator
_______________
This is my problem. I quickly give up, and then I don't write again until something very passionate stirs me. What does this say about me?
Susan
Nothing bad SuElPo. I have been writing a novel off and on for 3 years. Mostly off. I stopped when I left my writer's group. Now I don't have to submit a chapter every 2 weeks and I forget about it.
I would rejoin the group but I don't have time. I'm taking writing courses. Ironic, isn't it?
 

SuElPo

Veteran Member
Nothing bad SuElPo. I have been writing a novel off and on for 3 years. Mostly off. I stopped when I left my writer's group. Now I don't have to submit a chapter every 2 weeks and I forget about it.
I would rejoin the group but I don't have time. I'm taking writing courses. Ironic, isn't it?
I think it's great you are taking writing courses. Enjoy!
Susan
 

ComCamGuy

Remote Paramedical pain in the ass
Part of the thing I have tried to break a few of the bad habits we all see the writers do like laundry lists of stuff.
“Bill filled his pockets with a xyz brand pocket knife, an xyz flashlight, 17 extra batteries, 3 pieces of bubblegum, 2 bobby-pins, two sets of car keys for the xyz truck, 37 dollars in loose change, two pieces of jerky, a pair of reading glasses, two sets of latex gloves, and a copper fountain pen.”

Another issue that goes with the earlier mentioned research for you, but don’t dump it all in the story at once. I fight that urge. I try to only reveal what is needed for the character or the story at the time. It’s a struggle to not put a bunch of extraneous stuff that doesn’t develop the character for the reader. I might know that character x doesn’t like the color red, or bananas, but unless it’s shown up in a story, like they are choosing between two objects and choose the blue one because they hate red, or the only thing in the house was some banana pudding, so bla bla bla.

Other than that, I relish the feedback I have been getting, but as a writer on here, I like the engaging conversations about what is going on in the story. For example, I had several people confused about a characters intended use for paper grocery bags.

The most important thing for writers to do is write, then go back through and mercilessly and viciously edit your work. Most of the time I am working back through my stuff to catch continuity errors I create in later chapters.
 

Cardinal

Chickministrator
_______________
Part of the thing I have tried to break a few of the bad habits we all see the writers do like laundry lists of stuff.
“Bill filled his pockets with a xyz brand pocket knife, an xyz flashlight, 17 extra batteries, 3 pieces of bubblegum, 2 bobby-pins, two sets of car keys for the xyz truck, 37 dollars in loose change, two pieces of jerky, a pair of reading glasses, two sets of latex gloves, and a copper fountain pen.”

Another issue that goes with the earlier mentioned research for you, but don’t dump it all in the story at once. I fight that urge. I try to only reveal what is needed for the character or the story at the time. It’s a struggle to not put a bunch of extraneous stuff that doesn’t develop the character for the reader. I might know that character x doesn’t like the color red, or bananas, but unless it’s shown up in a story, like they are choosing between two objects and choose the blue one because they hate red, or the only thing in the house was some banana pudding, so bla bla bla.

Other than that, I relish the feedback I have been getting, but as a writer on here, I like the engaging conversations about what is going on in the story. For example, I had several people confused about a characters intended use for paper grocery bags.

The most important thing for writers to do is write, then go back through and mercilessly and viciously edit your work. Most of the time I am working back through my stuff to catch continuity errors I create in later chapters.
I listen to a lot of audio books and am kind of amazed at the incredibly bad writing that even successful authors are guilty of, and it really pops out when you are listening.
For instance Lee Child does a series called Jack Reacher and he is pretty well known, but his writing borders on abominable at times.
"Are you leaving?" she said.
Reacher said nothing.
"Will you be back?"
Reacher said nothing.
"How will I find you?"
Reacher said nothing.

and on and on and he does this at least once in each book.
 

Kathy in FL

Administrator
_______________
Homonyms, present/past tense, and run on sentences are my bane. As many as I catch, I still miss more than I should during editing.
 

Lone_Hawk

Resident Spook
Outside of school, I didn't write very often. My mother was a prolific writer of mystery novels and poems.

Later in life I did a lot of technical writing that had to be submitted to the technical review editors. I got called into the head of that group's office one day. "Lone, I hate your writing, because you write like you speak. On the plus side of that, your writing is very easy to read. But you break a lot of the rules of English and technical writing norms. So I want you to do one thing for me." as she handed me the three inch thick document she had been editing. "Be consistent. If you do things the same way every time, you will be ok."

All of the editors hated me after that and grumbled every time. But there were very few edits to my documents.
 
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223shootersc

Veteran Member
I was writing a lot for a while and it seemed that I was just not doing any good work. Stopped to do a little editing on my three completed attempts at books. Now I just can't get back into the groove. Any suggestions from this group of great writers?
 
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