ECON Trillion-dollar Platinum Coin Could be Minted at the Last Minute (OP 10/21)

Doc1

Has No Life - Lives on TB
Why stop with one trillion? Zimbabwe did 100 trillion dollar notes.

Pikers.

ETA - and what kind of fool has any confidence in the FRN$ NOW?? It's still a means of exchange but that is all.

I visited Zimbabwe twice (on business) at the beginning of their hyperinflation. It was the same drill that occurs around the world during hyperinflations. First, the official, posted exchange rate bore no resemblance to reality. On the streets, you could easily get two to three times the official rate if you had hard(er) currencies, like the $US or South African Rand. You could do even better if you had gold to trade.

You could do better still if you bought goods in the local shops. I did this in a small scale way, buying nice clothes and a nice leather jacket. Customs never bothers trying to worry about where you bought your clothes.

These things will be slower to come in the US, because we only have two international borders and they are relatively far from most Americans. Still, you will see this type of small scale arbitrage in areas close to Canada and Mexico. It will all depend upon which currencies are significantly stronger at any given time. For decades Americans have bought leather goods and auto upholstery in Mexico because of the cheaper values. If the Peso tanks, the deals will be better for Americans, but if - as is more likely - the US Dollar tanks, all Mexican goods and labor will be more expensive. The same thing will happen relative to Canada.

In the lead up to serious (or hyper) inflation, such as we are seeing now in the US, most people will have to do a careful dance; you won't want to hold too much rapidly depreciating currency, but you will still need some for bills and purchases outside of barter. People will make these adjustments daily and then hourly.

There will be misdirection, too. Currencies do not go straight down over time and there will be temporary periods when the Dollar seems to be gaining strength. Be aware that these periods of Dollar strength will only be against other currencies. The value and purchasing power of the Dollar is in terminal decline.

Best
Doc
 

BadMedicine

Would *I* Lie???
No, it can’t.

No, they wouldn’t.


These people are beyond stupid.
The first one, yes. Because as soon as they deposit that one coin at the Federal Reserve the Federal Reserve deposit all of the ones and zeros in the central bank's. It's just like that. Most people just get paid in ones and zeros anyway.

The second one, yes they would have bought an increase, well not through Congress, Congress is going to have to pass this before they could do the coin, but you are correct no they haven't done it without flation. Massive massive massive massive International inflation. All of the world Reserve currency dollars coming home to roost at the same time. Money would have zero amount of value overnight. Straight barter system until we dug ourselves out, and it would be riots, international occupations, Warlords, and famines from then on out.
 

packyderms_wife

Neither here nor there.
Well golly, Wally! I guess then, that my little 1/10th oz collectible Platinum Eagle would make me a multi-billionaire! 'Scuse me while I go back to daydreaming.

Best
Doc

So would my platinum wedding band set! Had someone recently want to trade me some platinum sheet and wire for a piece of artwork I had created, maybe I should revisit her offer.
 

end game

Veteran Member
Not that Constitutional Law is followed but under Article 1, Section 8, Clause 5:

Congress shall have power to coin money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign coin, and fix the standard of weights and measures.

So, is congress going to set the value of platinum based upon the standard weight and measure at multi-trillions?
 

packyderms_wife

Neither here nor there.
Only if you trust the other party or have a way to authenticate the metal.

I trust the person, they discovered that platinum is difficult to work with and she has gone back to working with rose gold.

ETA plus I can always send it to Rio Grande Jewelry and for $50 have it authenticated.
 
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Hi-D

Membership Revoked
Why stop with one trillion? Zimbabwe did 100 trillion dollar notes.

Pikers.

ETA - and what kind of fool has any confidence in the FRN$ NOW?? It's still a means of exchange but that is all.

It makes the tally stick a lot easier to understand. But it was rather successful.

What tally sticks tell us about how money works - BBC News


What tally sticks tell us about how money works
By Tim Harford
BBC Radio World Service, 50 Things That Made the Modern Economy
Published10 July 2017
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Medieval tally sticks. circa 1299
IMAGE SOURCE,NATIONAL ARCHIVES

Image caption, Tally sticks, circa 1299, showing accounts of the bailiff of Ralph de Manton of Ufford Church, Northampton
Not far from where I live is Oxford's Ashmolean Museum, home to art and antiquities from around the world. I often find myself slipping down the stairs to the money gallery in its grand basement.

You can see coins from Rome, the Vikings, the Abbasid Caliphate and, closer to home, from medieval Oxfordshire and Somerset.

But while it seems obvious that the money gallery would be full of coins, most money isn't in the form of coins at all.
The trouble is, as Felix Martin points out in his book, Money: The Unauthorised Biography, that most of our monetary history hasn't survived in a form that could grace a museum.
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Programme image for 50 Things That Made the Modern Economy

50 Things That Made the Modern Economy highlights the inventions, ideas and innovations which have helped create the economic world in which we live.

It is broadcast on the BBC World Service. You can find more information about the programme's sources and listen online or subscribe to the programme podcast.

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In fact, in 1834, the British government decided to destroy 600 years of precious monetary artefacts. It was a decision that was to have unfortunate consequences in more ways than one.


The artefacts in question were humble sticks of willow, about eight inches (20cm) long, called Exchequer tallies. The willow was harvested along the banks of the Thames, not far from the Palace of Westminster in central London.

Foils and stocks
Tallies were a way of recording debts with a system that was sublimely simple and effective.

The stick would contain a record of the debt, for example: "£9 4s 4d from Fulk Basset for the farm of Wycombe". Fulk Basset was a Bishop of London in the 13th Century. He owed his debt to King Henry III.
Now comes the elegant part.

The stick would be split in half, down its length from one end to the other. The debtor would retain half, called the "foil". The creditor would retain the other half, called the "stock" - even today, British bankers use the word "stocks" to refer to debts of the British government.

Because willow has a natural and distinctive grain, the two halves would match only each other.
Some of the old wooden tally sticks used by the UK Exchequer until 1826
IMAGE SOURCE,ALAMY
Image caption,Some of the old wooden tally sticks used by the UK Exchequer until 1826
Of course, the Treasury could simply have kept a record of these transactions in a ledger somewhere. But the tally stick system enabled something radical to occur.

If you had a tally stock showing that Bishop Basset owed you £5, then unless you worried that he wasn't good for the money, the tally stock itself was worth close to £5 in its own right.

If you wanted to buy something, you might well find that the seller would be pleased to accept the tally stock as a safe and convenient form of payment.

So the tally sticks themselves became a kind of money, a particular sort of debt that could be traded freely, circulating from person to person until it utterly separated from Bishop Basset and a farm in Wycombe.

The Irish experience
We don't have a good sense of whether tally sticks were in fact widely traded or not, for reasons that will become clear. But we know that similar debts were, some surprisingly recently.

On Monday 4 May 1970, the Irish Independent, Ireland's leading newspaper, published a matter-of-fact notice with a straightforward title: Closure of banks.

Every major bank in Ireland was closed and would remain closed until further notice. The banks were in dispute with their own employees, who had voted to strike, and it seemed likely that the whole business would drag on for weeks or even months.

You might think that such news - in what was one of the world's more advanced economies - would inspire utter panic, but the Irish remained calm. They'd been expecting trouble, so had been stockpiling reserves of cash, but what kept the Irish economy going was something else.

The Irish wrote each other cheques.
Two men in a 1950s Irish pub
IMAGE SOURCE,GETTY IMAGES
Image caption,People used cheques to cover expenses like bar bills, and publicans reused them to pay their suppliers
Now, at first sight this makes no sense.

Cheques are paper-based instructions to transfer money from one bank account to another. But if both banks are closed, then the instruction to transfer money can't be carried out - not until the banks open, anyway. But everyone in Ireland knew that might not happen for months.

Nevertheless, people wrote each other cheques, and they circulated. Patrick would write a cheque for £20 to clear his tab at the local pub. The publican might then use that cheque to pay his staff, or his suppliers.

Patrick's cheque would circulate around and around, a promise to pay £20 that couldn't be fulfilled until the banks reopened and started clearing the backlog.

Taken on trust
The system was fragile. It was clearly open to abuse by people who wrote cheques they knew would eventually bounce.
As May dragged past, then June, then July, there was always the risk that people lost track of their own finances and started unknowingly writing cheques they couldn't afford and wouldn't be able to honour.
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More from Tim Harford
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Perhaps the biggest risk of all was that trust would start to fray, that people would simply start refusing to accept cheques as payment.

Yet the Irish kept writing each other cheques. It must have helped that so much Irish business was small and local.
People knew their customers. They knew who was good for the money. Word would get around about people who cheated.

And the pubs and corner shops were able to vouch for the creditworthiness of their customers, which meant that cheques could keep moving.

Private money
When the dispute was resolved and the banks reopened in November, more than six months after they had closed, the Irish economy was still in one piece. The only problem: the backlog of £5bn worth of cheques would take another three months to clear.

Nor is the Irish case the only one in which cheques were passed around without ever being cashed.

In the 1950s, British soldiers stationed in Hong Kong would pay their bills with cheques on accounts back in England. The local merchants would circulate the cheques, vouching for them with their own signatures, without any great hurry to cash them in.
British soldiers in Hong Kong bound for Korea in August 1950
IMAGE SOURCE,GETTY IMAGES
Image caption,Some British soldiers stationed in Hong Kong during the 1950s - like these troops bound for Korea - used cheques drawn on their home banks

Effectively, the Hong Kong cheques - like the Irish cheques, like the Tally sticks - had become a form of private money.
If money is simply tradable debt, then tally sticks and uncashed Irish cheques weren't some weird form of quasi-money. They were simply money in a particularly unvarnished form.

Unfortunate end
Like an engine running with the cover off, or a building with the scaffolding still up, they're money with the underlying mechanism laid bare.

Of course, we still naturally think of money as those discs of metal in the Ashmolean Museum. After all it's the metal that survives, not the cheques or the tally sticks.

Those tally sticks, by the way, met an unfortunate end. The system was finally abolished and replaced by paper ledgers in 1834 after decades of attempts to modernise.
The Palace of Westminster pictured during the fire which largely destroyed it in October 1834
IMAGE SOURCE,ALAMY
Image caption,A decision to burn the obsolete tally sticks in 1834 nearly destroyed the Palace of Westminster
To celebrate, it was decided to burn the sticks - six centuries of irreplaceable monetary records - in a coal-fired stove in the House of Lords, rather than letting parliamentary staff take them home for firewood.

Burning a cartload or two of tally sticks in a coal-fired stove is a wonderful way to start a raging chimney fire.
So it was that the House of Lords, then the House of Commons, and almost the entire Palace of Westminster - a building as old as the tally stick system itself - was burned to the ground.

Perhaps the patron saints of monetary historians were having their revenge.

Tim Harford writes the Financial Times's Undercover Economist column. 50 Things That Made the Modern Economy is broadcast on the BBC World Service. You can find more information about the programme's sources and listen online or subscribe to the programme podcast.
 

Line Doggie

Contributing Member
Yesterday I heard a couple minutes of someone interviewing Miss Ocasio-Cortez. In her fake-serious voice she said "I understand math, so I know that 97 votes is more than 9 votes", referring to some intra-party squabble.
Cracked me up. Other than calculating who's a good tipper and who isn't, I'd imaging that that's all the math you know.
Maybe someone could try dividing 6.5 trillion dollars by 140 million productive citizens.
 

Dobbin

Faithful Steed
Maybe someone could try dividing 6.5 trillion dollars by 140 million productive citizens.
6.5E12 / 140E6 = $46,428

Due next year if you don't want to carry this forward and pay additional interest.

Bannon says deferred carrying cost about 1 trillion a year. (15 percent per annum)

Truly saddling your children. Bondage to the Chinese hegemony.

Dobbin
 

Dennis Olson

Chief Curmudgeon
_______________
The first one, yes. Because as soon as they deposit that one coin at the Federal Reserve the Federal Reserve deposit all of the ones and zeros in the central bank's. It's just like that.
Uh, no, it’s not. This proposed coin is nothing more than the emperor’s new clothes. You cant just drop the equivalent of a silver dollar stamped with a bunch of zeroes into a bank someplace and expect a trillion dollars to magically appear. That is NOT rational. I’m frankly shocked that you buy into that bullshit. I thought you were smarter than that.
 

TammyinWI

Talk is cheap
Yellen Rejects $1T Coin
October 5, 2021
1633483806302.png

(Associated Press) U.S. Treasury Secretary Janet Yellen said Tuesday that Oct. 18 remains the date she is likely to run out of resources to stave off an unprecedented default on the nation’s debt without congressional action to raise the debt limit. She rejected the idea of minting a $1 trillion coin to avoid a default.

Appearing on CNBC Yellen said that if a default were to occur “I fully expect it would cause a recession as well” along with preventing the government from paying benefits to 50 million Social Security recipients and meeting the government’s other bills.

She said it would be “catastrophic” if the government did not have the resources to pay its bills.

Yellen flatly rejected a novel idea that has been put forward to mint a $1 trillion coin and use that to avoid a default on the debt.

“I am opposed to it and I don’t be believe we should consider it seriously,” she said.

“The platinum coin is the equivalent of asking the Fed to mint money to cover the debt,” she said. She said what needs to be done is for Congress and the administration to show they can be trusted to pay the country’s bills.

On Monday, President Joe Biden said he could not guarantee that the U.S. government will not default on the debt as he sought to put more pressure on Republicans to stop blocking a Democratic effort to raise the debt ceiling.

Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer, D-N.Y., has said he will try to get legislation passed to raise the debt limit before the deadline but will need Republicans in the Senate to agree not to block the effort through a filibuster.

 

TammyinWI

Talk is cheap
Trade Deficit Hits Record $73.3 Billion in August

October 5, 2021

(Associated Press) The U.S. trade deficit increased to a record $73.3 billion in August as a small gain in exports was swamped by a much larger increase in imports.

The Commerce Department reported Tuesday that the monthly trade deficit increased 4.2% in August, rising to an all-time high, surpassing the previous record of $73.2 billion set in June. The trade deficit represents the gap between what the country exports to the rest of the world and the imports it purchases from other countries.

In August, exports rose 0.5% to $$213.7 billion, reflecting revived overseas demand. But imports, even with all the supply chain problems at ports, were up an even stronger 1.4% to $287 billion.

The politically sensitive goods deficit with China surged 10.8% to $31.7 billion in August. This year’s deficit with China through eight months totals $218.9 billion, up 13.7% from the same period a year ago.

The total deficit so far this year $558.1 billion, 33.7% higher than last year when pandemic-related shutdowns curbed Americans’ appetite for foreign goods.

Analysts said they expect the deficit surge will start to lessen now that other economies are beginning to revive and purchase more exports. However, some cautioned that the global supply chain problems could hurt both exports and imports in coming months.

“The shutdown of a significant chunk of the global auto industry last month suggests that the sharp falls in auto exports and import in August has further to run,” said Andrew Hunter, senior U.S. economist at Capital Economics. The auto industry has been particularly hard-hit by the supply chain problems involving computer chips.

Katherine Tai, the Biden administration’s top trade negotiator, announced Monday that the United States plans to launch new trade talks with China but will maintain the Trump-era tariffs as it pushes to get China to fulfill pledges it has made to buy more U.S. goods and services.

The Biden administration has spent months since coming into office reviewing the economic relationship with China, the world’s second largest economy.

 

cyberiot

Rimtas žmogus
No wonder I've been getting "nudged" to convert FRNs into gardening tools--I might actually need a broadfork in the not-so-distant future.
 

rob0126

Veteran Member
...She said what needs to be done is for Congress and the administration to show they can be trusted to pay the country’s bills.

The federal reserve debt can never be paid back.

When the first federal reserve note was made, there was a fee put upon it.(interest)

That interest can never be paid because to pay the debt back, you have to give back the dollar plus the interest payment on that created dollar, which btw does not exist.

(only a dollar was created, not the dollar plus interest.)

So it was always to be perpetual debt slavery. The end result is what is happening right now.

The federal reserve private share holders have robbed multiple generations of americans of their labor wealth.

Those plunderers owe us everything.
 

Sentinel

Veteran Member
I made my two youngest sons billionaires last Christmas. Yep, the Zimbabwe dollar. I rarely use the "Z" word as I refuse to acknowledge anything but Rhodesia, but I do want Zimbabwe to get credit for what they did (or did to the economy.)
 

BadMedicine

Would *I* Lie???
6.5E12 / 140E6 = $46,428
Truly saddling your children. Bondage to the Chinese hegemony.
Dobbin
No fiat debt has EVER been repaid in history. louder for those in the back

NO FIAT DEBT HAS EVER BEEN REPAID THROUGHOUT HISTORY.

so war it'll be. They've got to 'wag the dog' and keep us in crisis to stay in power as long as possible... but fiat is toast, and so is the usa now. fiat is absolutely toast.
 

tanstaafl

Has No Life - Lives on TB
For those that don't know, this isn't the first time the "trillion dollar" coin idea has come up. It was first floated back in (I think) 2011 when they were having an earlier national debt angst attack. For what it's worth, the picture is the OP is not quite right. When they talk about how they already have the coin and only need to change the denomination, they're almost certainly talking about the Platinum Eagle design. I bought a novelty "coin" after that earlier moronicity and you can see the only thing they changed for the novelty coin was the denomination and removing the part about the platinum content. See below for what I'm talking about.

By the way, pretty much every Secretary of the Treasury who has lasted more than a couple of months has had printed what I call their "vanity money." That is, circulating U.S. currency with their name as the Treasury Secretary. So I wondered if Janet Yellen had hers out yet and did a search. Turns out not yet but her signature has been submitted for a new 2021 series of currency. Currency isn't released with the year it's printed, like coins, but rather with the year it was authorized. As far as I know they're still printing and releasing bills with the 2017A series year (I think the last authorized series), but that apparently will change sometime in the next few months with Yellen's newer 2021 series.

Just a little numismatic trivia for TGIF ...

US trillion dollar novelty coin (platinum eagle vs novelty coin).jpg
 

West

Senior
She says...

Quote...

"
In an interview with The Wall Street Journal, Yellen said that the Federal Reserve is unlikely to agree to such a plan, calling the scheme a "gimmick."

"It truly is not by any means to be taken as a given that the Fed would do it, and I think especially with something that's a gimmick," she said in an interview published Sunday. "The Fed is not required to accept it, there's no requirement on the part of the Fed. It's up to them what to do."

Well, well, well....

:D
 

alchemike

Veteran Member
"Voila, we'd have bought ourselves the equivalent of a trillion-dollar increase in the debt limit, without any impact on inflation," says Diehl.

The level of stupidity is stunning.
 

Dennis Olson

Chief Curmudgeon
_______________
One cannot “use” such a coin in any manner until someone buys it. Who’s going to buy it?

Until there is some “monetary velocity,” such a coin would be nothing more than a paperweight.
 

Donghe Surfer

Veteran Member
she worked at the Fed, does she not know if/whether it can?
what stupid people we have in government...... oh... par for the course
 

West

Senior
One cannot “use” such a coin in any manner until someone buys it. Who’s going to buy it?

Until there is some “monetary velocity,” such a coin would be nothing more than a paperweight.
And why not?

I'll buy it.... say would you please co-sign for me on this ? I'm good for it!
 

Dobbin

Faithful Steed
Create about a dozen of them and pass them around to the industry titans. The elite poker games would be more interesting.
Goes to the theory that if all the money were "evened out" between humans, give it time and eventually ALL the money will be in the hand of one.

Caesar missed a bet - he should have invested 1 cent at 5 percent annual interest. Rumor is today there is not enough value extant to cover Caesar on a withdrawal.

Dobbin
 

jed turtle

a brother in the Lord
No fiat debt has EVER been repaid in history. louder for those in the back

NO FIAT DEBT HAS EVER BEEN REPAID THROUGHOUT HISTORY.

so war it'll be. They've got to 'wag the dog' and keep us in crisis to stay in power as long as possible... but fiat is toast, and so is the usa now. fiat is absolutely toast.
The reason for Ukraine right now.
 
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