CHAT The vaginal takeover of the veterinary industry

Broken Arrow

Heathen Pagan Witch
And you’ve been DAMN LUCKY. Try it with vets in their mid 20’s. Come back with a full report.
If they do the job and my animal lives, then yes, I am quite happy with the care they have rendered. If they dont live, then it's quite possible they would not no matter what the vet did. I am sure you are aware the I am a rancher and I have an extensive medical background in my own right. I've delt with dogs, cats, horses, cows, chickens, turkeys and sheep. There is good and bad in every profession. I really don't care the age, gender, or anything else as long as the vet listens to me, and renders excellent care. I said they are in their 30's, however, I have had vets younger and older than that, and guess what?? My animals lived, and for the most part, thrived, thru the experience. I have lost animals, but that is no fault of the vet, regardless of age or gender, but due to the fact that some animals will not survive no matter what you do to help them. So there is your "full report" in a nutshell. Have I been lucky? I don't know if you can call it that. I do know that per ALL the vets I've had dealings with over 30+ years, that every one of them has said that I pay more attention to my livestock (in all forms) than the average person does. Getting a jump on a problem saves many issues long-term. Take that however you wish. I know my experiences, and quite frankly, you do not.

You do what works for you, and if you hate female vets, for whatever reason you chose, then you hate them. Go find a male vet to do what you want.
 
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psychgirl

Has No Life - Lives on TB
Banfield offers low-cost rabies shot clinics periodically. At $15 - $20 vs. almost $120, guess which I'm going to pick? But as far as taking a sick kitty there, NO.
Yeah, maybe so.
But you also don’t hear and know what WE hear and know, about they’re “chain store, churn and burn mentality” organization either.

They’re awful, not only to their employees but also how they rig their prices and “exam packages” in such a way that you will never, ever, get your true moneys worth.

They are the epitome of corporate greed. I’m not 1000% positive of how much they actually care about animal welfare either, to be straight honest.
 

Cyclonemom

Veteran Member
As for the rapid pace of veterinary medicine, where they may not spend a lot of time in the room explaining things, that is due to shear volume of demand.

Our vets see about 2O appointments a day. Each.

We usually turn away requests for another 25-30 appointments every single day. If vets seem rushed, it is because they are trying to fit in as many sick animals as possible to get them help. This often means also not getting lunch, and staying 3-4 hours after close to finish charting. DAILY.

Now, THAT IS ABSOLUTELY NO EXCUSE FOR POOR SERVICE OR SCARING PETS, like what happened to Dennis' Hairy. Pets should never be bum-rushed like that, particularly the guardian breeds. That's just plain dumb.
 

changed

Preferred pronouns: dude/bro
Word on the Street is that the suicide rate amongst vets is higher than normal and the women lead. No comment as to why.

Lady I know spent $4,000 on her cat, another $1,600. Small animal practice is the way to go

Roomed with vet students way back when. Concluded they were on par with med students in difficulty of work.
Imagine you're doing surgery on a family pet and the pet doesn't recover from the anesthesia. You would feel like dog squeeze.
 
I just wanted to take a moment to rant about the expulsion of men from the veterinary industry. More and more, vet offices are staffed ENTIRELY by women. Even the doctors. And most all of them, staff and doctors, are under 30. I have zero faith in a 20-something vet, right out of school. I’m changing vets because of it.

I may have posted about this before, but needed to rant again.

Thanks!
Odd cuz my small town post office is all women now. The last man retired.
 

West

Senior
Don’t know what the workers make at the vet place but they charge enough for all of them to make a good living.
Just take into account, the actual take home for employees is usually 1/3 to 1/4 of what their billed out to.

IOW, if your bill shows that their labor rate is charged out at $100hr. The employees actual take home will be around $25 a hour or less.

Good rule of thumb.
 

WalknTrot

Veteran Member
All the large animal vets around here are women. They are forces of nature, and know their business well.
Nothing for them to be laying in the shit pulling a calf or stumbling around your barnyard at 0-dark-thirty tending to a colic.

It's what they wanted, what they schooled for, and what they do. Besides raising their kids, tending their husband and house, and 2 of the three, running a family beef operation.
 

MinnesotaSmith

TB Fanatic
All the large animal vets around here are women. They are forces of nature, and know their business well.
Nothing for them to be laying in the shit pulling a calf or stumbling around your barnyard at 0-dark-thirty tending to a colic.

It's what they wanted, what they schooled for, and what they do. Besides raising their kids, tending their husband and house, and 2 of the three, running a family beef operation.
Nowhere near enough hours in the week for them to do all of those halfway well, let alone superlatively. Which of those would you say those women are most commonly seriously neglecting? ("None" would be an insulting lie, so please don't waste my time by answering with some version of it.)
 

db cooper

Resident Secret Squirrel
I just wanted to take a moment to rant about the expulsion of men from the veterinary industry. More and more, vet offices are staffed ENTIRELY by women. Even the doctors. And most all of them, staff and doctors, are under 30. I have zero faith in a 20-something vet, right out of school. I’m changing vets because of it.

I may have posted about this before, but needed to rant again.

Thanks!
I've noticed that too. We live in the middle of nowhere. Our local vet is 9 miles away, the alternative is 90 miles away. The local vet came here right out of school and opened a shop about 15 years ago. She now has a huuuuuge operation where she does a lot of livestock. Her operation has a corral and stable area for the farm critters as well as the typical clinic for pets. And the staff is 100% female. I do not feel entirely comfortable that it has zero men employed, but we have been treated well.
 

Seeker22

Veteran Member
And you’ve been DAMN LUCKY. Try it with vets in their mid 20’s. Come back with a full report.
I actually did. My Vet was fresh hatched out of Texas A&M School of Veterinary Medicine. She worked with a local Vet for three years and left to found her own practice. At that time, she looked old enough to attend High School and was still in her twenties. She and I have never had a problem. This girl hit the ground running and her professionalism matches her devotion and tenderness.

I'll take luck, but Blessings are better.
 

WalknTrot

Veteran Member
Nowhere near enough hours in the week for them to do all of those halfway well, let alone superlatively. Which of those would you say those women are most commonly seriously neglecting? ("None" would be an insulting lie, so please don't waste my time by answering with some version of it.)
You need to get out more. ;)
Real Women are everywhere if you look in the right places and aren't blinded by pre-judgement.
 

Seeker22

Veteran Member
Imagine you're doing surgery on a family pet and the pet doesn't recover from the anesthesia. You would feel like dog squeeze.
Imagine a 95 pound Black Lab in for a Rattlesnake bite. You follow the directions and give the Antivenin like you have dozens of times. Only to watch his shoulder slough off in chunks in a few short hours later. And a dog strong enough to fight and make it, with every reason to want to- doesn't.

Is that Veterinary error, or product failure? Either way, you have some bad news to break. Some days, being a Vet sucks, no matter what sex you are. In this case, it was a male who has been in his own clinic for over 30 years.
 

summerthyme

Administrator
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Don’t know what the workers make at the vet place but they charge enough for all of them to make a good living.
Maybe.

The other factor in costs no one has mentioned is the insane increase in prices of *everything* they use. Anesthetic drugs have increased to the point where it costs MORE THAN what they charged for a spay or neuter 10 years ago... just for the anesthesia! Then you've got malpractice insurance (because when your 14 year old Pomeranian who you refused to spay for the last 8 years on the advice of your vet dies on the table as he's trying to save her from the severe toxic pyometra, it's obviously the vets fault!), all the disposables (syringes, needles, exam gloves...)

It is a very expensive service to provide.

I got into this discussion with a dentist once. He was shocked that I understood. He pointed to the glove dispenser on the wall (available from ULINE for @$30), and said "that cost me $279... because it has the caduceus printed on it".... but they are legally required to use the "official" items in their office.

They ain't making minimum wage, but most of them aren't doing as well as the school teachers.

Summerthyme
 

MinnesotaSmith

TB Fanatic
Real women can sniff out a F'd-up attitude from 30yds away.
Going by how Death Row inmates are swamped with biologically real women's attention, while the boring nice guys with good careers in my church group all got divorced by their kids' mothers (all of whom would undoubtedly bristle at the suggestion that they were not "real" women), that kind of attitude is apparently mostly an attractant.

I still want to know what in the lives of those "burn the candle and in the middle" fecundly married female veterinarians most commonly gets short shrift. I know for female regular M.D.s, they usually start refusing night and weekend work, eventually getting part-time positions with no call duties.
 
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Millwright

Knuckle Dragger
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Going by how Death Row inmates are swamped with biologically real women's attention, while the boring nice guys with good careers in my church group all got divorced by their kids' mother's, that kind of attitude is apparently mostly an attractant.
Being "biologically real does not mean they aren't F'd-up as a football bat.

You know what was being discussed when the term "real women" was being used.

Gals that are worth spending time with and other positives.

The type that will never associate with someone possessing your attitude about the opposite sex.

(shrug)

Your situation is entirely of your own making.
 

dawgofwar10

Veteran Member
I would take a female Vet over a Male Vet in a heartbeat, The same with Doctors, I find Female Doctors care more about you then thier male counterparts. As a matter of fact my last two Doctors are Female..
 

MinnesotaSmith

TB Fanatic
I would take a female Vet over a Male Vet in a heartbeat, The same with Doctors, I find Female Doctors care more about you then thier male counterparts. As a matter of fact my last two Doctors are Female..
Why? The females got admitted in part due to affirmative action in many cases, so did not have to have grades/scores/smarts quite on the level as did the men. Now, it's usually nowhere as severe as the discrimination in favor of blacks, no question. But, it's still a measurable difference. You are still safest when you are choosing a professional to go for the white male; leaving aside the rare legacy admits, you KNOW he didn't get admitted by AA.
 

dawgofwar10

Veteran Member
I am speaking from personal experience, I have probably seen more Doctors & Surgeons then most people, as a Surgeon I would select whomever has the most experience in that specialty which is generally a Male Doctor. As a G.P. I find most Female Doctors will spend much more time with you and explain why they are doing what they are doing, where I feel the Male Doctor acts like he is on the clock.. IMHO
 

dioptase

Veteran Member
Some individuals on this forum have really got to get off this "women are bad" kick, just by virtue of their gender.

My family doctor is a woman, and I admit that she is so-so. But she knows when to send you to a specialist, she knows which specialist(s) to steer you to (and which to stay away from), she has warned me about the problems with (many) orthopedic practitioners wrt female patients (and how to deal with that), and I think that's really about all you can ask from a family practitioner.

My oncologist was excellent (she no longer sees me as she says I am "too healthy"). She has a certificate on her wall for teaching (for a while) at Stanford (but I guess that's not good enough for you), she went the extra mile for me (I'm sure she does the same for all her patients), but sadly she is retiring soon.

Our dentist is excellent; again, I believe that she also taught at Stanford for a while. We have been her patients for four decades now. She has scaled back her practice somewhat so she no longer does difficult procedures, but we have been generally happy with the specialists (males) that she has sent us to.

I highly doubt that these last two (the first a graduate of Harvard Medical School) got their college admissions by AA.
 

Dennis Olson

Chief Curmudgeon
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In my own case, I just find it a bit disturbing that an entire industry is effectively driving men OUT. Are you saying that’s a good thing dioptase? That being said, women, particularly the younger ones, are generally miserable b*tches toward men. To the women on this thread saying they’ve had no problem with their female vets, my response is, that’s to be expected. Like women complain about how male mechanics routinely talk down to them or treat them badly, the reverse is true for men dealing with female “professionals.” Further, women, particularly younger ones, tend to cover up when they don’t know something.

These are the issues I have with women vets. And I stand behind every word of it.
 

dioptase

Veteran Member
In my own case, I just find it a bit disturbing that an entire industry is effectively driving men OUT. Are you saying that’s a good thing dioptase? That being said, women, particularly the younger ones, are generally miserable b*tches toward men. To the women on this thread saying they’ve had no problem with their female vets, my response is, that’s to be expected. Like women complain about how male mechanics routinely talk down to them or treat them badly, the reverse is true for men dealing with female “professionals.” Further, women, particularly younger ones, tend to cover up when they don’t know something.

These are the issues I have with women vets. And I stand behind every word of it.
My problem (with you), I guess, it that it seems to me as though you think there is some vast conspiracy to force men out of the profession.

While I agree that at some point in time there was probably some degree of AA wrt getting into certain STEM professions, I don't think that's the case recently. (I have no proof of that, but such bending-over backward doesn't seem likely to me, certainly not to the extend of deliberately turning down, en masse, qualified male applicants.)

Consider instead, that the seeming proliferation of women in certain professions has more to do with changes in the college application/admission process over the past decade or so. Changes which may not consciously, intentionally have been favoring females/disfavoring males, but which might have ended up with a similar result regardless.

When DD was applying for college (more than a decade ago), I was astonished/concerned at the college application process. To get into the highest tier school that you might conceivably qualify for, good grades aren't enough anymore. Good SAT/ACT scores aren't enough anymore. No. Apart from filling their own "diversity" (such as students from every state and every kind of background) and "institutional need" (such as players for their sports teams, musicians for their bands/orchestras, writers for the school newspaper and the like) niches, colleges want "well rounded individuals", which means that you have to show some consistent interest/participation in an activity over time. (Exceptions can be made for that, as in the case of someone who has to work to help support their family or afford tuition.)

In addition to THAT, you also have to write some number of essays in a manner pleasing/engaging to the admissions officers. Good luck with that, if you have any kind of problems writing essays, especially if you can't find it within yourself to write about yourself or your experiences. (DD wrote one general essay that was sent to all the colleges/universities that she applied to, as part of a common application form, BUT she also had to write additional essays for most of the individual schools. I frankly despaired of her getting those essays done, because she is/was a private but not introspective person, and those essays were difficult for her to write, and what she came up with frankly wasn't inspiring to me!)

Now, all of that is just for admission to an undergraduate school. Consider what it must take to get accepted into a medical or veterinary school. Some years ago, out of curiosity, I looked at an application form to study to get a vet tech degree - this is a lowly tech, not a veterinarian, mind you. It appeared that the admissions officers in that situation wanted some several-years-long demonstration of interest/commitment to animal care, such as volunteering at shelters, vet offices, rescue groups, and the like.

Now, step back and ask yourself...

Which gender may have better language/writing skills (at a young adult age) and so be better able to write an enticing essay on an application?

Which gender, from a young-ish age, might be more apt to be involved with animals in such a way? (I'd guess 50/50 for those with a farming/rural background, but for those with an urban background? My gut feeling (and I could be wrong) is that more females than males would have such experiences.)

All of this is my feeling... which you might think is "sexist". Fine, whatever. I think you'd have to actually ask a veterinary school admissions officer for what it is that they are looking for - but I don't think that it's "we want all women".

The rest of your response, I can see and understand your viewpoint, because (as you suggested) it also works the other way. I've been told by more than one (female) medical person that the orthopedic surgeons (at that time, and possibly still, predominately male) have ingrained biases/beliefs about their female patients - effectively that they don't really want to, or need to, be physically active (especially if they are older, heavier women like I am), and that a little PT will solve their problems (or at least satisfy them enough to shut them up), and if it doesn't, then maybe they just aren't working hard enough. (Part of the solution to that is to be really aggressive with them, stand your ground, make them do the damned MRI or whatever so that they are forced to acknowledge that yes, there really is a problem where something surgical has to be done to fix it. But the problems extend beyond that, including but not limited to giving you false expectations as to the extent of recovery possible and the timeframe to get there.)

As to "young" female veterinarians being problematic... well, as I wrote earlier, "young" (in this case, male) doctors can be problematic too. That rant I mentioned earlier about "young doctors" wanted to operate at the drop of a hat, whether it made sense or not? The rant was by an older, experienced (male) orthopedic surgeon, directed at younger surgeons in his specialty - the vast majority (maybe ALL of them) in this particular large foundation, being male.

So gender plays a role in some situations, I will grant you that, with each of our genders having some issues with professionals of the other gender, but I stand by my contention that experience and personality also have a large part to play there.

So sorry, I don't believe in a deliberate, vast, anti-male conspiracy, at least not wrt excluding men from the veterinarian (or human medical) professions.
 

MinnesotaSmith

TB Fanatic
My oncologist was excellent (she no longer sees me as she says I am "too healthy"). She has a certificate on her wall for teaching (for a while) at Stanford (but I guess that's not good enough for you), she went the extra mile for me (I'm sure she does the same for all her patients), but sadly she is retiring soon.

Our dentist is excellent; again, I believe that she also taught at Stanford for a while. We have been her patients for four decades now. She has scaled back her practice somewhat so she no longer does difficult procedures, but we have been generally happy with the specialists (males) that she has sent us to.

I highly doubt that these last two (the first a graduate of Harvard Medical School) got their college admissions by AA.
You really don't think that Stanford and Harvard engage in affirmative action in favor of women (and thus at the expense of more-qualified men)? You should try to keep up better.

.stanford.edu/equity-affirmative-action

Stanford
Diversity and Access Office


Equity & Affirmative Action

"The President and Provost have delegated responsibilities for the implementation of equal employment opportunity, and affirmative action programs and activities at Stanford University, to the director of the Diversity and Access Office. The director is responsible for developing the University's Affirmative Action Plan (AAP) for women and minorities. Likewise, the director is responsible for developing the University's AAP for veterans and individuals with disabilities.

Affirmative Action Program

The Diversity & Access Office develops annual affirmative action reports and plans in accordance with federal regulations. The reports and plans assist with assessing the effectiveness of diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI) efforts and includes policies, procedures, and practices that further the University's commitment to equal employment opportunities. The reports include Stanford's workforce summaries by school and unit, providing detailed demographic information. Furthermore, analysis of each job group is conducted to identify where Stanford is underrepresented with regard to women, minorities, veterans, and individuals with disabilities. This determines the affirmative action goals and the action-oriented plans to be implemented for the following year."

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.harvard.edu/c-non-discrimination-and-affirmative-action

"The affirmative action plan adopted by the University requires the Faculty to take appropriate steps to identify diverse candidates, including women, minorities, individuals with disabilities, and protected veterans, for most positions. The responsibility for compliance with affirmative action procedures resides in the first instance with the officer making the appointment recommendation. The following structures are in place to enhance the recruitment of diverse faculty members:

a. The chairs of departments and the chairs of search committees are responsible for actively pursuing opportunities to appoint diverse individuals, including women and minorities, to positions at all levels."

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"Students admitted to the Class of 2026... Women comprise 54 percent of the admitted class."

==============================================================

Given this:


"Dr Paul Irwing: 'There are twice as many men as women with an IQ of 120-plus'"

There is clearly major bias against men in favor of women in admissions at Harvard.

The point remains: just as when you have a choice between blacks and whites/north Asians, pick the latter if possible. Often when you have a choice between a woman and a man for a skilled job, the man will be the smarter/more qualified one, because he did not have a thumb on the scales in his favor.
 
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Dennis Olson

Chief Curmudgeon
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My problem (with you), I guess, it that it seems to me as though you think there is some vast conspiracy to force men out of the profession.
I’m not a conspiracy theorist; the fact that you think I am just shows how little you know me.
Consider instead, that the seeming proliferation of women in certain professions has more to do with changes in the college application/admission process over the past decade or so. Changes which may not consciously, intentionally have been favoring females/disfavoring males, but which might have ended up with a similar result regardless.
Bull. There have been hundreds of threads posted over the past few years about how colleges are DELIBERATELY cherry-picking to exclude males and whites, and white males in particular. That’s not a conspiracy theory, that’s evidence-supported fact. I see that you’ve only been here two years, thus it’s likely that you haven’t seen those threads. I’m betting other members can dig them up for you.
 

dioptase

Veteran Member
MinnesotaSmith, given that my oncologist is ready to retire, she has been practicing for (I guess) at least 3 decades. If you can prove that Harvard medical school was deliberately gaming admissions at that time in favor of women (I grant that such might have been a possibility), then I might listen.

I concede that you may have a point wrt Stanford/Harvard hiring practices, at this current point in time.

However, that does not automatically, 100%, say that certain individual women, such as my oncologist and dentist, are/were not deserving of either their admissions into their respective professional schools, or their stints as instructors, regardless of whatever IQ bell curve or "College X admissions biased in favor of women" article you might produce. It definitely does not prove lesser-than-male competency on the part of either of them.

Dennis, I was aware, at the time (I was a long time lurker) of the white-males-discriminated-against-in-college-applications thing. I had forgotten about that. (As I recall, it wasn't only white males, though, but also Asians of both genders.)

I did my own digging, and it appears that in the past 30-odd years that the gender proportion of students in veterinary schools (not just in this country, but also in Canada/UK), has been slanting increasingly female. https://www.aavmc.org/assets/Site_18/files/Data/2017 AAVMC Public Data- Final 10.18 (ID 95283).pdf See page 13 for the point of crossover, about 1987.

According to this article, the current gender proportion of practicing "veterinarians" is 62.9/37.1 female/male. Veterinarian Demographics and Statistics [2022]: Number Of Veterinarians In The US (It's not clear to me if they are including vet techs in that "veterinarian" total, though, as only 32% or so of the vets referred to in that article have a doctorate degree.)

So you are correct in the assertion that the veterinary profession is increasingly dominated by women. (Note I say "women"... "vaginal takeover" is frankly offensive.)

I still have to question the cause for it, though. I can't believe that it's the undergraduate white-males (and Asians) are-discriminated-against thing, because the gender ratios in undergraduate admissions aren't as badly slanted as seems to be the case for veterinary schools. I can't believe it's "woke". So just what is going on?

Give me a reasonable hypothesis.
 

Rizzo gal

Senior Member
In the process of looking for a new vet. Last one was a man and to be honest I have no problem with a woman vet if she has more compassion than the last asshole male vet. My fur baby wasn’t feeling well couple weeks before Xmas, I think it was his ear again. The vet said, well, how much money do you want to spend. You wanna find out what’s wrong or do you wanna buy touchy-feely Xmas presents. I said with tears well, he means the world to me, let’s try to stay under 500 to start. He said well we could spend all kinda money and never figure it out. The more I thought about it the more it pissed me off. What I spend thousands so HE can give touchy feely Xmas presents? I don’t care what sex the vet is if they are knowledgeable and have some damn compassion. There’s my rant. Lol.
 
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