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“The Decline And Fall Of The Western Empire”
By Chuck Baldwin

Chuck Baldwin Live

August 12, 2022


Almost everyone sees it, and almost no one wants to discuss it: America and Western Europe are spiraling out of control. And the speed of the descent is crescendoing rapidly.

It took a long time for the old Roman Empire to collapse. The seeds of its demise blossomed slowly, but the historically astute among the Romans saw the destructive nation-eating plants growing when they first began to appear, but no one would believe them. And when the end came, it came quickly—almost overnight.

The Roman Empire was so rich and prosperous and so militarily mighty that no one within the empire could even imagine that a collapse was possible. I’m sure that what I’ve heard hundreds of Americans say, “It can’t happen here,” also echoed throughout the old Roman Empire for generations.

From The Saker:

Sometime in the future a learned academic will be writing a weighty tome with the title The Decline and Fall of the Western Empire. Perhaps the Contents Page will include, among others, twelve chapters with titles something like this: World War One. World War Two. Korea. Vietnam. Palestine. Iran. Nicaragua. Afghanistan. Iraq. Syria. Ukraine. Taiwan.

Indeed, Karin Kneissel, the former Austrian Foreign Minister, is at present writing a book with the working title A Requiem for Europe. In an interview with Asia Times on 31 July she declared that ‘European countries are growing ever weaker on the international stage and their places are being taken by Asian countries’. She said that the Europe ‘where she was born and grew up and to which she was devoted no longer exists’. ‘European leaders, through ignorance and arrogance, are neglecting the existing geopolitical realities and basic principles of diplomacy and this has created a dangerous situation’.

She added: ‘This is connected with Eurocentrism. We believe that we are so great that nobody can do without us…It seems to me that Europe needs Russia more than Russia needs Europe. If I am right, then is it really in the interests of the Old World to treat Moscow as an enemy, inclining Moscow to Beijing? Today Europeans are more and more disillusioned and desperate and this may cause mass disorder and anti-government violence’.

Kneissel, who is from Central Europe, makes it sound as if Europe is living in the past, before 1914, when it was politically central to the world, instead of being a more or less irrelevant political backwater as it is in 2022. What is certain is that the physical fall of an empire is always preceded by its spiritual fall.

Spiritual fall always precedes the fall of the State. In the Ukraine many have noticed the satanic tattoos and pentagrams on the bodies of the Neo-Nazi thugs who formed the elite of the Kiev regime armed forces and many have seen videos showing their satanic rituals.

The extraordinary thing is the self-justification of the Western world for its own suicide and its refusal to admit that anything is wrong with it. On the contrary, only its ‘values’ of ‘freedom, democracy and human rights’ are correct and must therefore be spread throughout the ‘free world’. All who do not accept its ‘values’, which in fact are anti-values because they are destructive, not constructive like real values, must be mocked, slandered and, if necessary, bombed into submission. Today’s Western world is visibly coming to resemble medieval frescoes showing the torments of hell, which are what spiritual death is. The Western world has been demonised, the demons have been called up from the bowels of hell to occupy it and visibly and mockingly inflict its ‘Western values’.

Did you catch what he said? “Spiritual fall always precedes the fall of the State.” I have been saying this for over three decades. How many times have you heard me say that America’s primary problems are spiritual, not political?

My critics often call me a “political” pastor. If those same people had really listened to me for any significant period of time they would know that I am one of the most apolitical preachers in the country. While the pastors who call me “too political” are neck-deep it partisan politics, defining America’s problems in mostly political terms by promoting the Republican Party and refusing to oppose GOP politicians when they engage in destructive and anti-Freedom activities and policies for fear that doing so would “help the Democrats,” I spare no party or politician. I am not interested in what is good for the party; I am only interested in what is good for the country and what is RIGHT.

Party partisanship, compromise, personal agendas, arrogance, willful ignorance of the Constitution and the total void of the fear of God have turned the vast majority of our political leaders in both parties into dangerous demagogues who are facilitating our nation’s destruction. Truly, they are “blind leaders of the blind.”

If America’s primary problems are spiritual (which they certainly are, as The Saker astutely observes), then the solutions are primarily spiritual. And this reality puts the responsibility of providing these spiritual solutions squarely on the shoulders of America’s spiritual shepherds: the pastors.

But as you very well know, on the whole, America’s pastors are totally unmoved and uninterested in providing the courageous spiritual leadership that America so desperately needs.

Very quickly, let me tell you the reasons why this is happening. Being a veteran pastor of over 47 years qualifies me to provide both an educated and experiential analysis. All pastors will not fall under each category below, but taken together, the following categories encompass the vast majority of evangelical pastors, regardless of denomination.

1. Pastors are hirelings.

They serve at the pleasure of a church board or committee. They are not their own men. They are bought and sold by the denomination or the church governing councils.

2. Pastors are success-driven.

Pastors covet “success.” They know they need people to fill their buildings and fund their programs. They also know that if they preach “hard” truth too much, they will lose a significant percentage of their congregations and thus lose a sizable percentage of their income.

In order to “succeed,” therefore, they use gimmicks, music, theatrics, entertainment, recreation and SOFT PREACHING to bring in—and keep—the masses. Accordingly, many pastors are not shepherds and watchmen; they are motivational speakers, comics and entertainers.

In short, they are people-pleasers and not God-pleasers.

At this point, I cannot resist the urge to quote the Apostle Paul:

Do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ. (Galatians 1:10)

3. Pastors fear the government more than God.

The fear of God is not their uppermost concern; the fear of government occupies that position.

The genesis of this transfer of allegiance began in 1954 when then-Senator Lyndon Johnson spearheaded the law that brought churches under the authority of the Internal Revenue Service as 501(c)(3) non-profit corporations.

The possibility of violating an IRS “guideline” for non-profit organizations and, therefore, losing the “church’s” precious tax-exempt status is uppermost in their minds every time a pastor stands behind his pulpit.

Over time, this subservient spirit—bolstered by the convenient misinterpretation of Romans 13—has turned pastors into sheepish servants of the state.

4. Pastors are cowards.

They know that in times such as we live in today, taking bold positions on controversial and inconvenient truths WILL cost something—and it might cost a lot. This they are unwilling to do.

My pastoral journey includes being in the inner circles of the so-called Religious Right in the late 1970s through the early 2000s. I knew many of the “big name” evangelical preachers of that era. I knew them in public; I knew them in private.

I saw the “marriage vow” they took to the GOP. I heard their private admissions to how being accepted by the political establishment, aka “having a seat at the table,” was directly linked to their personal fortunes. I saw the spirit of covetousness for power, position, notoriety and money. I saw the jealousies and raw ambitions.

To be sure, the above indictments do not apply to all of them—THANK GOD! But the above applies to far, far too many of them.

It’s easy to “courageously” attack Democrats when your bread is buttered by Republicans. In fact, if you could see the donor lists of the major Republican politicians and the major evangelical leaders, you would learn that those lists match almost perfectly. That pretty much says it all.

5. Pastors are servants and spokesmen for Zionist Israel.

Call me anything you want, but I am telling the truth when I say that Israeli interests and ideologies dominate the vast majority of evangelical pastors. The false prophecy doctrines of Zionist-bought Cyrus Scofield (aka Prophetic Dispensationalism, Prophetic Futurism, Christian Zionism, etc.) dominate the vast majority of major evangelical colleges and seminaries, the vast majority of television evangelists, the vast majority of evangelical radio broadcasts, the vast majority of evangelical publishing companies and the vast majority of evangelical churches.

Commitment to Zionism keeps pastors in bondage. One cannot separate the “global elite,” the “Davos crowd,” the “one-percenters,” the promoters of the “New World Order,” the modern-day cabal of international “moneychangers” and the promoters of all things anti-Christian, anti-America and anti-Liberty from Zionist Israel. They are inseparable.

As long as pastors are held in bondage to Zionism, they are incapable of discerning evil, much less resisting it.

Quoting The Saker again: “Spiritual fall always precedes the fall of the State.”

When The Decline And Fall Of The Western Empire is eventually written, it will not be kind to the evangelical pastors and Protestant leaders of this generation. And that’s putting it mildly.

Reprinted with permission from Chuck Baldwin.
 

Samuel Adams

Has No Life - Lives on TB
And this reality puts the responsibility of providing these spiritual solutions squarely on the shoulders of America’s spiritual shepherds: the pastors.

I knew “we” were in trouble before.

As per the above declaration,
ALL hope is lost.

The country is gone.


Individual, how is your authentic walk with God ?


“America’s spiritual shepherds”


God must still be gasping for air after hearing/seeing that ludicrous concept in hysterity actually verbalized.
 

Catnip

Veteran Member

“The Decline And Fall Of The Western Empire”
By Chuck Baldwin

Chuck Baldwin Live

August 12, 2022


Almost everyone sees it, and almost no one wants to discuss it: America and Western Europe are spiraling out of control. And the speed of the descent is crescendoing rapidly.

It took a long time for the old Roman Empire to collapse. The seeds of its demise blossomed slowly, but the historically astute among the Romans saw the destructive nation-eating plants growing when they first began to appear, but no one would believe them. And when the end came, it came quickly—almost overnight.

The Roman Empire was so rich and prosperous and so militarily mighty that no one within the empire could even imagine that a collapse was possible. I’m sure that what I’ve heard hundreds of Americans say, “It can’t happen here,” also echoed throughout the old Roman Empire for generations.

From The Saker:

Sometime in the future a learned academic will be writing a weighty tome with the title The Decline and Fall of the Western Empire. Perhaps the Contents Page will include, among others, twelve chapters with titles something like this: World War One. World War Two. Korea. Vietnam. Palestine. Iran. Nicaragua. Afghanistan. Iraq. Syria. Ukraine. Taiwan.

Indeed, Karin Kneissel, the former Austrian Foreign Minister, is at present writing a book with the working title A Requiem for Europe. In an interview with Asia Times on 31 July she declared that ‘European countries are growing ever weaker on the international stage and their places are being taken by Asian countries’. She said that the Europe ‘where she was born and grew up and to which she was devoted no longer exists’. ‘European leaders, through ignorance and arrogance, are neglecting the existing geopolitical realities and basic principles of diplomacy and this has created a dangerous situation’.

She added: ‘This is connected with Eurocentrism. We believe that we are so great that nobody can do without us…It seems to me that Europe needs Russia more than Russia needs Europe. If I am right, then is it really in the interests of the Old World to treat Moscow as an enemy, inclining Moscow to Beijing? Today Europeans are more and more disillusioned and desperate and this may cause mass disorder and anti-government violence’.

Kneissel, who is from Central Europe, makes it sound as if Europe is living in the past, before 1914, when it was politically central to the world, instead of being a more or less irrelevant political backwater as it is in 2022. What is certain is that the physical fall of an empire is always preceded by its spiritual fall.

Spiritual fall always precedes the fall of the State. In the Ukraine many have noticed the satanic tattoos and pentagrams on the bodies of the Neo-Nazi thugs who formed the elite of the Kiev regime armed forces and many have seen videos showing their satanic rituals.

The extraordinary thing is the self-justification of the Western world for its own suicide and its refusal to admit that anything is wrong with it. On the contrary, only its ‘values’ of ‘freedom, democracy and human rights’ are correct and must therefore be spread throughout the ‘free world’. All who do not accept its ‘values’, which in fact are anti-values because they are destructive, not constructive like real values, must be mocked, slandered and, if necessary, bombed into submission. Today’s Western world is visibly coming to resemble medieval frescoes showing the torments of hell, which are what spiritual death is. The Western world has been demonised, the demons have been called up from the bowels of hell to occupy it and visibly and mockingly inflict its ‘Western values’.

Did you catch what he said? “Spiritual fall always precedes the fall of the State.” I have been saying this for over three decades. How many times have you heard me say that America’s primary problems are spiritual, not political?

My critics often call me a “political” pastor. If those same people had really listened to me for any significant period of time they would know that I am one of the most apolitical preachers in the country. While the pastors who call me “too political” are neck-deep it partisan politics, defining America’s problems in mostly political terms by promoting the Republican Party and refusing to oppose GOP politicians when they engage in destructive and anti-Freedom activities and policies for fear that doing so would “help the Democrats,” I spare no party or politician. I am not interested in what is good for the party; I am only interested in what is good for the country and what is RIGHT.

Party partisanship, compromise, personal agendas, arrogance, willful ignorance of the Constitution and the total void of the fear of God have turned the vast majority of our political leaders in both parties into dangerous demagogues who are facilitating our nation’s destruction. Truly, they are “blind leaders of the blind.”

If America’s primary problems are spiritual (which they certainly are, as The Saker astutely observes), then the solutions are primarily spiritual. And this reality puts the responsibility of providing these spiritual solutions squarely on the shoulders of America’s spiritual shepherds: the pastors.

But as you very well know, on the whole, America’s pastors are totally unmoved and uninterested in providing the courageous spiritual leadership that America so desperately needs.

Very quickly, let me tell you the reasons why this is happening. Being a veteran pastor of over 47 years qualifies me to provide both an educated and experiential analysis. All pastors will not fall under each category below, but taken together, the following categories encompass the vast majority of evangelical pastors, regardless of denomination.

1. Pastors are hirelings.

They serve at the pleasure of a church board or committee. They are not their own men. They are bought and sold by the denomination or the church governing councils.

2. Pastors are success-driven.

Pastors covet “success.” They know they need people to fill their buildings and fund their programs. They also know that if they preach “hard” truth too much, they will lose a significant percentage of their congregations and thus lose a sizable percentage of their income.

In order to “succeed,” therefore, they use gimmicks, music, theatrics, entertainment, recreation and SOFT PREACHING to bring in—and keep—the masses. Accordingly, many pastors are not shepherds and watchmen; they are motivational speakers, comics and entertainers.

In short, they are people-pleasers and not God-pleasers.

At this point, I cannot resist the urge to quote the Apostle Paul:

Do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ. (Galatians 1:10)

3. Pastors fear the government more than God.

The fear of God is not their uppermost concern; the fear of government occupies that position.

The genesis of this transfer of allegiance began in 1954 when then-Senator Lyndon Johnson spearheaded the law that brought churches under the authority of the Internal Revenue Service as 501(c)(3) non-profit corporations.

The possibility of violating an IRS “guideline” for non-profit organizations and, therefore, losing the “church’s” precious tax-exempt status is uppermost in their minds every time a pastor stands behind his pulpit.

Over time, this subservient spirit—bolstered by the convenient misinterpretation of Romans 13—has turned pastors into sheepish servants of the state.

4. Pastors are cowards.

They know that in times such as we live in today, taking bold positions on controversial and inconvenient truths WILL cost something—and it might cost a lot. This they are unwilling to do.

My pastoral journey includes being in the inner circles of the so-called Religious Right in the late 1970s through the early 2000s. I knew many of the “big name” evangelical preachers of that era. I knew them in public; I knew them in private.

I saw the “marriage vow” they took to the GOP. I heard their private admissions to how being accepted by the political establishment, aka “having a seat at the table,” was directly linked to their personal fortunes. I saw the spirit of covetousness for power, position, notoriety and money. I saw the jealousies and raw ambitions.

To be sure, the above indictments do not apply to all of them—THANK GOD! But the above applies to far, far too many of them.

It’s easy to “courageously” attack Democrats when your bread is buttered by Republicans. In fact, if you could see the donor lists of the major Republican politicians and the major evangelical leaders, you would learn that those lists match almost perfectly. That pretty much says it all.

5. Pastors are servants and spokesmen for Zionist Israel.

Call me anything you want, but I am telling the truth when I say that Israeli interests and ideologies dominate the vast majority of evangelical pastors. The false prophecy doctrines of Zionist-bought Cyrus Scofield (aka Prophetic Dispensationalism, Prophetic Futurism, Christian Zionism, etc.) dominate the vast majority of major evangelical colleges and seminaries, the vast majority of television evangelists, the vast majority of evangelical radio broadcasts, the vast majority of evangelical publishing companies and the vast majority of evangelical churches.

Commitment to Zionism keeps pastors in bondage. One cannot separate the “global elite,” the “Davos crowd,” the “one-percenters,” the promoters of the “New World Order,” the modern-day cabal of international “moneychangers” and the promoters of all things anti-Christian, anti-America and anti-Liberty from Zionist Israel. They are inseparable.

As long as pastors are held in bondage to Zionism, they are incapable of discerning evil, much less resisting it.

Quoting The Saker again: “Spiritual fall always precedes the fall of the State.”

When The Decline And Fall Of The Western Empire is eventually written, it will not be kind to the evangelical pastors and Protestant leaders of this generation. And that’s putting it mildly.

Reprinted with permission from Chuck Baldwin.
I would add reincarnation to the mix. It might be that the Romans in charge of Rome when it fell, have reincarnated and are now in charge of the U.S., which currently teeters on the edge of its own destruction due to leftist politics.
 

Samuel Adams

Has No Life - Lives on TB
I would add reincarnation to the mix. It might be that the Romans in charge of Rome when it fell, have reincarnated and are now in charge of the U.S., which currently teeters on the edge of its own destruction due to leftist politics.

If not the souls, certainly the spirit of the Roman civil “ law”, has slowly replaced our original constitutional republic.

William Blackstone and John Locke do not mince words when comparing the two and how they impact the life of the “common man”.
 

PghPanther

Has No Life - Lives on TB
Christianity is about realizing you are a sinner and need salvation through Christ to become one with the creator again...........and then to pick up one's cross to follow Christ on his great commission in spreading the Gospel.

Civilization...........and Western consumer civilization specifically has become the "society of self" defined by material success and social media fame which is the complete anthesis to the Christian life.

As a result, organized denominations within the Christian faith are in turmoil over the survival of their fiscal requirements since they must now preach on serving two Gods.....

.....aka the God of Abraham through a life dedicated in Christ................and the false God of success..........or as Joel Olsten likes to say, "Living your best life now".

Good luck with that pastors..................the devil sits in the first row of the pew laughing at you.

Me?.......I'm not a person of faith these days but as a former believer I see very clearly the dilemma at hand.
 
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CaryC

Has No Life - Lives on TB
I copied the part about how nearly all church pastors were corrupted now, to print out and place in my children's time capsule.

I have long believed that if a man is getting a paycheck for his preaching, his words will reflect concern about his pay more than they will reflect God's will.
Heard that directly from a preacher's mouth. If he preached a hard sermon, people didn't give. So he didn't and they did.

He was a name and claim it preacher as well. Say it with your mouth, was said a lot there. He said it with his mouth. So it was in his heart,.......money.
 

Blacknarwhal

Let's Go Brandon!
I copied the part about how nearly all church pastors were corrupted now, to print out and place in my children's time capsule.

I have long believed that if a man is getting a paycheck for his preaching, his words will reflect concern about his pay more than they will reflect God's will.

Even pastors gotta eat. It would be nice if they could all go down to the river and pull out a fish with enough gold in its mouth to cover costs for the week, but still.
 

Blacknarwhal

Let's Go Brandon!
Yeah, "prosperity gospel” if you give FIAT to God threw Joel Olsten you will be rewarded by double, triple, etc...in life.

What a scam.

It's not completely out of line. Galatians 6:7 offers some insight therein, and it's far from the only one. Try out Isaiah 58:10 while you're at it. Giving in this world tends to come back in this world as well as in the next.
 

naegling62

Veteran Member
I believe John 14:6, and since The Christ spoke those words He cemented the concept that two Gods answer prayer. Be ye mindful of which God you serve.
 

CaryC

Has No Life - Lives on TB
Even pastors gotta eat. It would be nice if they could all go down to the river and pull out a fish with enough gold in its mouth to cover costs for the week, but still.
And while that is true, it should not be the motivating factor in what and how you preach.

Even Paul made tents so as to not be a burden to the flock.

Secondary, giving to get, is also a wrong motivation. Your heart is lusting after the getting, money, power, etc. Maybe some time should be spent, and I'm pointing at pastors, not you, in the sermon on the mount, where Jesus talks about "You have heard it said....... But I tell you......" That sermon points to the motivation of what you are doing.

And giving to get is a worldly view. You'll give the prostitute money to get..... You'll pay your political dues to get support in a move for moving up the ladder.

And the reason to give, is because God told, or moved you to, not what you may get in return. And you will be glad to do it. Of note on that are those in Corinth who gave so much, it was costing them, and Paul told them to stop (ever heard a preacher tell his flock to stop giving?) And second when they came out of Israel, they gave for the construction of the Tabernacle. They too, were told to stop they gave so much.

When one gives because God told them to, as they understand it, then thy don't look for a return on their investment.
 

CaryC

Has No Life - Lives on TB
It's not completely out of line. Galatians 6:7 offers some insight therein, and it's far from the only one. Try out Isaiah 58:10 while you're at it. Giving in this world tends to come back in this world as well as in the next.
Good verses but be careful with simply quoting a verse for backup, note Isa 58:11

Isa 58:11 And the LORD shall guide thee continually, and satisfy thy soul in drought, and make fat thy bones: and thou shalt be like a watered garden, and like a spring of water, whose waters fail not.

And Gal. 6:8

Gal 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

Those who give to get, sow to the flesh.
 

West

Senior
It's not completely out of line. Galatians 6:7 offers some insight therein, and it's far from the only one. Try out Isaiah 58:10 while you're at it. Giving in this world tends to come back in this world as well as in the next.

I checked those verses out. Is Joel redistributing 99.8% of the FIAT he gets from people who believe their giving to God, who in return will be paid back three fold?
 

Walrus Whisperer

Hope in chains...
I would add reincarnation to the mix. It might be that the Romans in charge of Rome when it fell, have reincarnated and are now in charge of the U.S., which currently teeters on the edge of its own destruction due to leftist politics.
THAT is exactly what I call "the spirit of the age".
 

Blacknarwhal

Let's Go Brandon!
And while that is true, it should not be the motivating factor in what and how you preach.

Even Paul made tents so as to not be a burden to the flock.

Secondary, giving to get, is also a wrong motivation. Your heart is lusting after the getting, money, power, etc. Maybe some time should be spent, and I'm pointing at pastors, not you, in the sermon on the mount, where Jesus talks about "You have heard it said....... But I tell you......" That sermon points to the motivation of what you are doing.

And giving to get is a worldly view. You'll give the prostitute money to get..... You'll pay your political dues to get support in a move for moving up the ladder.

And the reason to give, is because God told, or moved you to, not what you may get in return. And you will be glad to do it. Of note on that are those in Corinth who gave so much, it was costing them, and Paul told them to stop (ever heard a preacher tell his flock to stop giving?) And second when they came out of Israel, they gave for the construction of the Tabernacle. They too, were told to stop they gave so much.

When one gives because God told them to, as they understand it, then thy don't look for a return on their investment.

You're more than right about Paul making tents. But I do think you're off a bit on not looking for return. God PROMISED return. Like I said previously, Galatians 6:7. Be not deceived. God is not mocked. Whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

When I was a kid one of the UHF-stations that focused on televangelists, prayer and what it aspired to be God-centered content actually managed to make that whole verse a song. Still can sing it to this day.

And if Paul's letter isn't enough, consider Christ's own words in Luke 6:38. Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom .

Was Paul "worldly"? Was CHRIST??

Looking for God to keep His promises isn't "worldly."

edit: However, and I probably should have said this sooner, the return isn't solely worldly. There is the whole notion of treasure in heaven, where thief cannot take and moth cannot destroy. Still, again, pastors gotta eat, so expecting some measure of earthly return isn't out of line.

I admit I've always wondered about treasure in heaven. Will we need it? If we don't, what's the point? Why would Christ encourage us to send treasure where it would do no good? Just for the sake of it?
 
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Blacknarwhal

Let's Go Brandon!
I checked those verses out. Is Joel redistributing 99.8% of the FIAT he gets from people who believe their giving to God, who in return will be paid back three fold?

Probably not. But that's more on Joel than it is the person giving.
 

CaryC

Has No Life - Lives on TB
He lost me with point number 5, his anti-Israel rant. Yahweh loves Israel, always has, always will.
Chuck has always been an anti-Israel preacher, and while a lot of what he says is true, his first points, it just seems he never seems to fail to go on an anti-Israel rant. Point being does his point 5 discount the others? Or will you buy into the 5th point because the other 4 are right?
 

inskanoot

Veteran Member
He lost me with point number 5, his anti-Israel rant. Yahweh loves Israel, always has, always will.
I got stuck on that one, too. Israel puzzles me, and I won’t go “there” unless I need to. There’s plenty of stuff we can all agree on.

Re the decline and fall type stuff, I think of what Catherine (CAF) mentioned in a recent video (probably her most recent Dark Journalist), about a group of people in the Bible, who struggled through their own collapse. They fought with one hand and built with the other. We are each capable of rising to the challenge of building something amazing.
 
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CaryC

Has No Life - Lives on TB
You're more than right about Paul making tents. But I do think you're off a bit on not looking for return. God PROMISED return. Like I said previously, Galatians 6:7. Be not deceived. God is not mocked. Whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

When I was a kid one of the UHF-stations that focused on televangelists, prayer and what it aspired to be God-centered content actually managed to make that whole verse a song. Still can sing it to this day.

And if Paul's letter isn't enough, consider Christ's own words in Luke 6:38. Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom .

Was Paul "worldly"? Was CHRIST??

Looking for God to keep His promises isn't "worldly."
Yep no doubt that is true. However motivation is a factor.

We give because the Father tells us to. Period. So we are pleasing to the Father, note Enoch. (did Enoch do what was pleasing to God so he would be translated?) In return, for obeying God/Him he will give to us. That is a promise of return, and not a motivation to give. It's basically a relationship between the Father and His children. We give based on Isa 58:11 His guidance, and as a child when your mom told you not to go into the street and play, you did it. Did you expect to receive anything in return? Probably not, but you got food, clothing, care, maybe a cookie, in return. And to me, that is the same thing that is going on with giving and reaping and sowing. We give as directed and then God as any father would do, He will not give us a stone instead of bread.

IMHO

Job 13:15 Though he slay me, yet will I trust in him: but I will maintain mine own ways before him.

Should be our motivation.

Secondary to that it is noted in Hebrews 11, about reaping in faith. It is also in the same vein as being obedient, and the promise that God gave when you were told to be obedient, is what any father would do. He won't renege, and give you something that would hurt you. Stating that is simply reaffirming that He is our Father and won't mistreat us. And the flip side is he will discipline us, when we don't obey. Just like your mom did, when she caught you in the road playing when she told you not to, ALL the way home, with every step.

When Abraham was told to offer Isaac, was there a promise of return? 100 fold? In directly there was some 30+ years earlier with the promise "...in Isaac shall thy seed....". But not at the asking for Isaac's life.
 

Bax333

Contributing Member
Chuck has always been an anti-Israel preacher, and while a lot of what he says is true, his first points, it just seems he never seems to fail to go on an anti-Israel rant. Point being does his point 5 discount the others? Or will you buy into the 5th point because the other 4 are right?

In the Bible God says he will bless those who bless Israel. No country or people have blessed the modern anti-Christ nation which calls itself Israel more than America and Americans. We are under God's judgement as we speak. We are on the cusp of the Great Tribulation.

WHERE ARE THE BLESSINGS?

Does God lie?

If you know He doesn't lie then how do you reconcile this? Is it possible Satan has deceived you? It should take you about five minutes of research on google to realize that the Star of David is not mentioned anywhere in the Bible however the Star of David bears a striking resemblance to the Star of Remphan which was condemned in the BIble. The flag of Israel is a 6 pointed star with 6 triangles and contains a 6 sided hexagon.

Satan has so deceived the world that he has people who claim to be Christians doing his bidding for him.
 

Blacknarwhal

Let's Go Brandon!
Yep no doubt that is true. However motivation is a factor.

We give because the Father tells us to. Period. So we are pleasing to the Father, note Enoch. (did Enoch do what was pleasing to God so he would be translated?) In return, for obeying God/Him he will give to us. That is a promise of return, and not a motivation to give. It's basically a relationship between the Father and His children. We give based on Isa 58:11 His guidance, and as a child when your mom told you not to go into the street and play, you did it. Did you expect to receive anything in return? Probably not, but you got food, clothing, care, maybe a cookie, in return. And to me, that is the same thing that is going on with giving and reaping and sowing. We give as directed and then God as any father would do, He will not give us a stone instead of bread.

IMHO

Job 13:15 Though he slay me, yet will I trust in him: but I will maintain mine own ways before him.

Should be our motivation.

Secondary to that it is noted in Hebrews 11, about reaping in faith. It is also in the same vein as being obedient, and the promise that God gave when you were told to be obedient, is what any father would do. He won't renege, and give you something that would hurt you. Stating that is simply reaffirming that He is our Father and won't mistreat us. And the flip side is he will discipline us, when we don't obey. Just like your mom did, when she caught you in the road playing when she told you not to, ALL the way home, with every step.

When Abraham was told to offer Isaac, was there a promise of return? 100 fold? In directly there was some 30+ years earlier with the promise "...in Isaac shall thy seed....". But not at the asking for Isaac's life.

You're raising excellent points. We're not even all that far off.

But it's also worth noting that if you give expecting return, and that is your main motivation, you're still being obedient.

Those who give expecting return are giving because they trust God and His promises. That in itself is obedience; we were commanded to trust, after all. If the expectation of return is their main motivation, then they must believe what God said to be true. If they didn't, they wouldn't give in the first place.

Perhaps the real separation is from WHERE they expect the return. If they give expecting people to repay, then they're worldly. If they give expecting GOD to repay, then that's different. Remember the parable of the guests; when you give a banquet, invite those who can't repay you. Then God will repay you Himself. Though the parable of the guests does clarify that that repayment comes due at the resurrection of the righteous.
 

Jake Grey

Veteran Member
I have a hard time listening to/trusting preachers who left low paying jobs to essentially get rich in ministry. I know of a few who left very high paying occupations and are now struggling to get by because they are serving small churches or serving as missionaries in very poor countries or places in the U.S. They are doing what they were called to do instead of climbing the mega church corporate ladder. Money and fame are temptations to many of those in ministry.
 

Blacknarwhal

Let's Go Brandon!
How about they get JOBS, like everyone else has to do?//

Well, that's a possibility. But is it the best move?

That I don't know. A volunteer-only pastor doesn't sound terrible. But you'd lose a lot of the other services. Visiting the old folks in the hospital, people in jail and whatnot, taking communion out to the shut-ins...can't do that when you're punching a time clock down at Spacely Sprockets.
 

Sacajawea

Has No Life - Lives on TB
The church was the first institution to lose trust from the people, during LBJ's Great Society crap. That's going on 40 years now. Until there is a change in the church in what they're teaching/preaching there won't be a lot of people seeking spirituality in that tradition again.
 

CaryC

Has No Life - Lives on TB
Well, that's a possibility. But is it the best move?

That I don't know. A volunteer-only pastor doesn't sound terrible. But you'd lose a lot of the other services. Visiting the old folks in the hospital, people in jail and whatnot, taking communion out to the shut-ins...can't do that when you're punching a time clock down at Spacely Sprockets.
Just for informational purposes:

There is an off shoot "Baptist" denomination, maybe Free Will, or the snake handlers, where it is mandatory doctrinally that the pastor works in a secular job (making tents so to speak). I don't remember which one exactly. Of course there are restrictions on those jobs, like working days, and no weekends.

Just as a side note there is nothing Biblically about programs in general, and speaking about going to jails, it should be noted that the verses that pertain to that, is directed towards unbelievers. As in the unbelievers/CINO's didn't visit Christ in prison, or feed Him. As you did or did not do it to one of these (children of God, you did it to me.

Notice who did what to whom:

Mat 25:42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
Mat 25:43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
Mat 25:44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
Mat 25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

Notice also this is the same stand that Jesus took with Saul on the road to Damascus.

Just pointing this out, not saying that churches shouldn't have a mission to prisons. We would do well to remember that being a Christian in the first century could well cost you your life, and they had no programs to "reach the world" but did. It was their lives that counted.
 

West

Senior
Probably not. But that's more on Joel than it is the person giving.

I think it has to be more personal to give charity or a hand up, to receive three times the blessings.

Giving to Joel probably discounts the good blessings, heh, heh...
 

Samuel Adams

Has No Life - Lives on TB
“Minister” is an action verb.

It is how a man ministers to the hungry, the infirm, widows, orphans and the poor in spirit, etc. that it is determined whether or not he is worthy and /or competent to be respected as one who might actually convey God’s intention by voice.

A license from the STATE, to preach, is cosmic-grade proof that your sermons are not sourced from The Creator of all things.


change my mind
 

PghPanther

Has No Life - Lives on TB
Yeah, "prosperity gospel” if you give FIAT to God threw Joel Olsten you will be rewarded by double, triple, etc...in life.

What a scam.

As wealthy as people like Olsten and here in my area Steve Furtick have become from their pulpit playground.......if they lost this vehicle to drive wealth they are SOL.....

.....the best thing their skill sets would apply to is something selling used cars or one of those "certified life coaches"......

....good luck there.
 

Blacknarwhal

Let's Go Brandon!
Just for informational purposes:

There is an off shoot "Baptist" denomination, maybe Free Will, or the snake handlers, where it is mandatory doctrinally that the pastor works in a secular job (making tents so to speak). I don't remember which one exactly. Of course there are restrictions on those jobs, like working days, and no weekends.

Just as a side note there is nothing Biblically about programs in general, and speaking about going to jails, it should be noted that the verses that pertain to that, is directed towards unbelievers. As in the unbelievers/CINO's didn't visit Christ in prison, or feed Him. As you did or did not do it to one of these (children of God, you did it to me.

Notice who did what to whom:

Mat 25:42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
Mat 25:43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
Mat 25:44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
Mat 25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

Notice also this is the same stand that Jesus took with Saul on the road to Damascus.

Just pointing this out, not saying that churches shouldn't have a mission to prisons. We would do well to remember that being a Christian in the first century could well cost you your life, and they had no programs to "reach the world" but did. It was their lives that counted.

No no, that's just fine. I was just pointing out that you WOULD lose those services not having a paid full-time pastor. Good information, though.
 

Blacknarwhal

Let's Go Brandon!
I think it has to be more personal to give charity or a hand up, to receive three times the blessings.

Giving to Joel probably discounts the good blessings, heh, heh...

I'm going to disagree, actually. If you give a homeless person charity and they use it to buy a bottle of cheap plonk that sends their liver to the graveyard, and them with it, you're not guilty of murder. Nor is your charity void. What people do with your charity is on THEM, not you.
 

West

Senior
I'm going to disagree, actually. If you give a homeless person charity and they use it to buy a bottle of cheap plonk that sends their liver to the graveyard, and them with it, you're not guilty of murder. Nor is your charity void. What people do with your charity is on THEM, not you.

I only give to family, friends and old folks on S.S. anymore. And directly. Homeless persons maybe if I know of them.

The last homeless people I knew had a apartment paid for by government and the male stood out on street corners with their kids begging for money and card board sign saying homeless, while the mother worked the other corner as a prostitute.

The safety nets enables this conduct often and promotes it even.

Thinking Joel is just as bad as the two above, I mention.
 
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