Health pro-biotic jars

[Faroe]

I found a website called The Pro-biotic Jar. Worth looking up. Lots of inormation on lactic-acid fermentation. I have Sally Fallon's book, and Sandor Katz's (spell?) book on this, so I thought I was reasonably informed. I never got good results, and it seems techniques have radically changed.

This site seems to have the best information of any site I've found on this. Several things about fermenting vegetables and sourdough are controversial, and a few bloggers don't seem to know what they are talking about.

The Pro-biotic Jar site sets everything out very clearly, even to the specific brine concentrations (and why), for different ferments. There are several videos I haven't had a chance to get to. The site sells jars, but I'm not promoting that. I'm not buying jars. I'm using what I have to follow the principles involved, and get the same good results. Therefore, I'm using mason jars, the typical metal rings, and drilling Tatler lids. I fit the hole in the lid with aquarium tubing, and tape the tubing so it forms an upright circle that will hold a bit of water. This is the airlock.

So far so good.

 

[packyderms_wife]

Never heard of a probiotic jar before. I have been watching a show on HuluPlus the last couple of weeks called Taste of China and I see that they use special clay pots to ferment their soy, cabbage, and other vegetables in for long periods of time. I also noticed that they almost always cover the tops with cotton cloth of sorts, that looks like a printed cheesecloth, and then the clay lid. The soy sauce pots are stirred daily with a specialized wooden paddle.

So not much help other than it's a really cool show about the various types of foods eaten throughout china over the past four thousand or so years.

 

[Faroe]

Never heard of a probiotic jar before. I have been watching a show on HuluPlus the last couple of weeks called Taste of China and I see that they use special clay pots to ferment their soy, cabbage, and other vegetables in for long periods of time. I also noticed that they almost always cover the tops with cotton cloth of sorts, that looks like a printed cheesecloth, and then the clay lid. The soy sauce pots are stirred daily with a specialized wooden paddle.

So not much help other than it's a really cool show about the various types of foods eaten throughout china over the past four thousand or so years.

I haven't seen these traditional pots, but from what I've read, the clay lets out the carbon-dioxide, but keeps oxygen from entering. The Koreans supposedly achieved the same by burying the pot. The old methods made for an anerobic environment, which is desirable for lactic-acid fermentation. Since most Americans aren't going to bury the kaut in the back yard, we can use glass, air tight gasgets, and add airlocks to get the same results. The problem with the Katz and Fallon books, was that they did not provided a good way to keep the O2 out, while keeping the CO2 from getting overpressurized in the jar. Apparently too much of a concentration of dissolved CO2 is also harmfull to the desirable culture (and that is before the jar explodes).

Fallon's book suggests using whey to help the starter going but apparently there is no overlap for the lactic-acid bacteria that work on milk products, and the lactic-acid bacteria that work on veggies. They are entirely different sets of bacteria. Whey is now not recommended. IIRC, Katz says "salt to taste," but the optimum salt concentration in the brine is fairly low, if conditions are anerobic enough to inhibit molds. The Probiotic Jar suggests 2% salt concentration for most vegetables. This is by weight; one hundred grams of water would take 2 grams of salt. She has the brine mixed separately from the vegetables, and then poured over.

 

[packyderms_wife]

I haven't seen these traditional pots, but from what I've read, the clay lets out the carbon-dioxide, but keeps oxygen from entering. The Koreans supposedly achieved the same by burying the pot. The old methods made for an anerobic environment, which is desirable for lactic-acid fermentation. Since most Americans aren't going to bury the kaut in the back yard, we can use glass, air tight gasgets, and add airlocks to get the same results. The problem with the Katz and Fallon books, was that they did not provided a good way to keep the O2 out, while keeping the CO2 from getting overpressurized in the jar. Apparently too much of a concentration of dissolved CO2 is also harmfull to the desirable culture (and that is before the jar explodes).

Fallon's book suggests using whey to help the starter going but apparently there is no overlap for the lactic-acid bacteria that work on milk products, and the lactic-acid bacteria that work on veggies. They are entirely different sets of bacteria. Whey is now not recommended. IIRC, Katz says "salt to taste," but the optimum salt concentration in the brine is fairly low, if conditions are anerobic enough to inhibit molds. The Probiotic Jar suggests 2% salt concentration for most vegetables. This is by weight; one hundred grams of water would take 2 grams of salt. She has the brine mixed separately from the vegetables, and then poured over.

hmmm we have several asian grocery stores here in town, maybe its time to go looking for some kimchee pots?

 

[Faroe]

hmmm we have several asian grocery stores here in town, maybe its time to go looking for some kimchee pots?

No asian stores around here, but I did a quick check on Amazon. I was surprised to only find two. One very pretty one has not yet been reviewed, and is made in China (lead glaze??). The other is glass. One reviewer said it worked well, but the glass was much too thin, and the jar broke. That jar did not get a single good review for quality. These jars look like the traditional much bigger German-style Harsh type fermentatation crocks. The basic design is well of water around the outer edge of the lid. CO2 can bubble out, but O2 and contaminants are kept out.

I like the simplicity of that design, and never could figure out why the Harsh types had to be so big, and so absurdely expensive. Doesn't look like such a hard thing to cast in pottery or glass....

I'll keep an eye on Amazon for a nice one. Knowing Amazon, there just may be a dozen good kimchee pots them next month.

 

[TerriHaute]

I came across a similar system last summer that was featured in one of the seed catalogs called the Perfect Pickler: http://www.perfectpickler.com/vegetable-fermenting-kit/ I got this kit to go on a canning jar, and then was able to get the components to make clones very cheaply. There was a bumper crop of cabbage in the garden last year, so I wanted a way to make sauerkraut simply, and this worked really well. I ordered one for my step-daughter too, as she is a holistic practitioner and ferments a lot of her food, and she loved it. All you need really, are a widemouth canning jar, an s-airlock like winemakers use, a rubber jar ring, and a rubber grommet to hold the airlock on the plastic lid. I found all at reasonable prices on Amazon. And the sauerkraut turned out great, we have been eating it all winter.

 

[Faroe]

I came across a similar system last summer that was featured in one of the seed catalogs called the Perfect Pickler: http://www.perfectpickler.com/vegetable-fermenting-kit/ I got this kit to go on a canning jar, and then was able to get the components to make clones very cheaply. There was a bumper crop of cabbage in the garden last year, so I wanted a way to make sauerkraut simply, and this worked really well. I ordered one for my step-daughter too, as she is a holistic practitioner and ferments a lot of her food, and she loved it. All you need really, are a widemouth canning jar, an s-airlock like winemakers use, a rubber jar ring, and a rubber grommet to hold the airlock on the plastic lid. I found all at reasonable prices on Amazon. And the sauerkraut turned out great, we have been eating it all winter.

Yup. I have all that layed out in my "cart" too.
Hoping to afford a few of the components for a small Feburary order. I wish Amazon would stock them in their warehouse, because right now, the components are mostly from outside venders, and the shipping adds up.

Little by little.

 

[packyderms_wife]

No asian stores around here, but I did a quick check on Amazon. I was surprised to only find two. One very pretty one has not yet been reviewed, and is made in China (lead glaze??). The other is glass. One reviewer said it worked well, but the glass was much too thin, and the jar broke. That jar did not get a single good review for quality. These jars look like the traditional much bigger German-style Harsh type fermentatation crocks. The basic design is well of water around the outer edge of the lid. CO2 can bubble out, but O2 and contaminants are kept out.

I like the simplicity of that design, and never could figure out why the Harsh types had to be so big, and so absurdely expensive. Doesn't look like such a hard thing to cast in pottery or glass....

I'll keep an eye on Amazon for a nice one. Knowing Amazon, there just may be a dozen good kimchee pots them next month.

The clay pots are not glazed, they are fired twice but with no glaze, the clay is a specialized volcanic clay that is black.

 

[packyderms_wife]

I came across a similar system last summer that was featured in one of the seed catalogs called the Perfect Pickler: http://www.perfectpickler.com/vegetable-fermenting-kit/ I got this kit to go on a canning jar, and then was able to get the components to make clones very cheaply. There was a bumper crop of cabbage in the garden last year, so I wanted a way to make sauerkraut simply, and this worked really well. I ordered one for my step-daughter too, as she is a holistic practitioner and ferments a lot of her food, and she loved it. All you need really, are a widemouth canning jar, an s-airlock like winemakers use, a rubber jar ring, and a rubber grommet to hold the airlock on the plastic lid. I found all at reasonable prices on Amazon. And the sauerkraut turned out great, we have been eating it all winter.

I have this in my amazon cart, just need to get the rest of my order put together.

 

[ReneeT]

Hmm... the perfectpickler is pretty much what my Hubby put together to make small batches of wine, except he uses half gallon canning jars, wide mouth plastic Ball lid with hole drilled in center, airlock, and rubber ring.

Care to share your saurkraut recipe, TerriHaute? And do you water bath can it when it's finished fermenting?

 

[packyderms_wife]

Hmm... the perfectpickler is pretty much what my Hubby put together to make small batches of wine, except he uses half gallon canning jars, wide mouth plastic Ball lid with hole drilled in center, airlock, and rubber ring.

Care to share your saurkraut recipe, TerriHaute? And do you water bath can it when it's finished fermenting?

where did he buy the airlocks? I have the plastic lids for the wide mouth jars and I do have half gallon jars on hand.

 

[Faroe]

The clay pots are not glazed, they are fired twice but with no glaze, the clay is a specialized volcanic clay that is black.

Well, now, I want one.
Would look pretty on an indigo dyed dish towel.

Packy, Amazon sells the air locks too. You can also pick them up at any brew store. For your area, it may just be easier to find them locally. They are not expensive. However, unless you silicone it down (maybe parafin/bees' wax would work too?), you will need a small grommet for a good fit. Amazon sells the little silicone gromets that are sized to fit the airlocks, and since the lids don't create a very air tight seal alone, the use of gasgets under the lid is also recommended. IIRC, the hole for the grommet will require a 5/8th inch drill bit (but, check that to be sure).

I was in a hurry, and just drilled some Tatler's which come with gasgets. I did without the little grommets for the air-lock since all I had for an air-lock was some left-over flexible aquarium tubing, and that fit very snugly with a 3/8ths inch hole drilled into the Tattler.

 

[Faroe]

Google Images shows several photos of covered pots that are apparently kimchee pots in Korea. I like the rustic look - similar to raku Japanese style pottery. They look large, however, maybe two feet tall or so.

Just so no one wastes time trying to do what I did; making a loop with aquarium tubing doesn't seem to work well. The bubbles push out all the water. The tubing would work if a longer length of it was cut with one end set in a separatejar of water. I don't have enough tubeing for that, and I know from the experience of trying to use a sipon setup for "self watering" planters that I don't care for that sort of setup. I found it cumbersome.

I'm placing a small Amazon order for just airlocks and grommets today.

 

[ReneeT]

Packyderms Wife ~ we picked up the airlocks at a local brewing store. They also had rubber, angled plugs with a hole through the center available; Hubby puts those in the hole of the lid, then the airlock goes through the hole in the center. I'm going to pop by Amazon and take a look at the airlocks and grommets Faroe is talking about; wonder if my delightful SIL, who has Prime, would like to order those for me?

 

[Faroe]

I ordered airlocks and small silicone grommets to fit.

Several ferments are currently bubbling away with just aquarium tubing snugly fitted into a drilled Tattler (for better or worse). I have to wonder however: since the Tattler lid won't rust from the acid and salt, and is designed to release extra pressure in the canner, isn't the usual "finger tip" tight twist on the rings used for canning, *good enough* for most ferments?

I did want some airlocks for brewing, but after some thought, I suspect I spent some money I probably didn't need to.

 

[Faroe]

The airlocks and grommets finally came in this afternoon. I drilled a hole in a couple of Tattlers for the grommets. That required an X-acto knife as well as a drill, because of course, for all the drill bits we have, there was no 5/8" bit. Worked out fine, however. I tried first to punch a 5/8ths into the regular metal lids, but the results were poor. Metal lids will of course rust anyway in that enviroment.

There is a big to-do on some of the fermentation sites about the toxicity of Tattlers, due to formaldahyde. I've decided to ignore it. Would love to go all glass, but Weck and Fido glass lidded jars are expensive. Also, a glass diamond head drill bit for cutting a 5/8ths hole in glass runs, apparently, $25. The one website that gives directions for drilling the glass lids is emphatic about needing a drill press (I only have a hand held drill). Someone through Amazon sells the predrilled Fido lids, but they are $11.99 each. I would me more inclined to experiment if I had a relatively inexpensive source for undrilled Fido lids. Unlike the gasgets and wire bales, the glass lids don't seem to be sold as a "replacement part."

At this point, I have about a dozen plus jars of various fermenting veggies. There is NO room!! They were previously kept in two large coolers (good for keeping jars in the dark, containing any foaming mess, and possible explosions), but today I needed one of the coolers for our weekly yogart making, and realized I hadn't thought the project through. I stuffed some jars in a lower cabinet, and must now remember to burp them daily with the others, untill I can get airlocks on everything. I need to order more airlocks.

Untill recently, the one good kraut I ever made was a forgotten jar - it never got burped, and I'm lucky it didn't blow. Found a couple of months later - excellent flavor.

 

[summerthyme]

One solution to buying airlocks for every jar would be to simply buy 20 feet or so of winemaking tubing (food grade). Do the same hole drilling as you're doing for the airlocks, but match the hole size to the tubing outside diameter.

Cut the tubing in lengths that will work depending on your configuration. 1-2 feet for each length is usually plenty.

Insert one end of the tubing through the lid on the fermenting jar. Fill a quart jar with water, and put the other ends of the tubing under the water. You can cluster a dozen jars around a quart jar (possibly needing something with a wider mouth if you're going to do that many)... sort of a "multi-use" airlock.

Summerthyme

 

[Faroe]

Some food grade tubing that fits the grommets would be handy. I found the aquarium tubing to be a bit too narrow.

According to the recipes, the kimchee I made was ready yesterday, and I also had a beets-and-other-stuff jar that was ready to eat.

Tasty!

These ferments will help with otherwise uninspired dinners. I like to prepare food, I like to bake bread, but I HATE having to make dinner. Hate it, Hate it, Hate it!!

So, anything already prepared, that I can just dump into a bowl is appreciated.