COMM Loup, what is "Nationwide LTD walkie-talkies?

ShadowMan

Designated Grumpy Old Fart
A friend sent me a text asking about Rapid Radios - Emergency Radio?

https://rapidradios.com/

Cyberattacks on the USA, and the uncertainty of WW3 you simply CAN NOT RELY on Cell Phones and Internet for Communications in the Future!​

  • These radios provide NATIONWIDE coverage, whereever you are located. With no monthly fees, no contracts, and no hassle!
  • Keep in touch with your friends, family, and more - wherever they are located. UNLIMITED Nationwide RANGE* with UNLIMITED use!
  • Talk for DAYS without losing battery charge!
  • Our PROFESSIONAL GRADE Radios are SELLING Fast, sold out MOST PLACES, and available for a limited time with FREE Shipping!
Advertising as "The Only Nationwide LTE Walkie-Talkie" with unlimited range and NO MONTHLY fee? Is this for real? Is it just some sort of cellphone deal or a scam. I don't see how it could be a GMRS, CB, SSB, HAM radio. What exactly is this?

Is this some sort of "cellphone" scam. Sounds too good to be true.
 
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night driver

ESFP adrift in INTJ sea
Smells like "Cellular radio". Bride worked for a construction company who get BIG into this about 15 years ago or so. OK 25 years ago.

This is the story on Independence Communications as they were bought by Bear Comm in 2014.

 
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LoupGarou

Ancient Fuzzball
When you see "LTE", think cellular data internet. These are one of the many data based RoIP radio systems that will use either cellular or even WiFi if available. If the internet is down in that area, or the cell towers are down, then these radios won't work. They will work better than an actual cellular voice call since they don't need to be realtime, but can be delayed a bit like text messages can, but they still need that connection.

More info:
https ://rapidradios.com/pages/faq

Here is the faq about the signal source
  • Will this work in an area with no cellular coverage?​

    • It will work better than a cell phone, that's for sure - we use ALL the carriers (not just 1, like a phone) plus it's a different technology than a phone call.. PLUS gets better signal - check out this video:
      View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qc9vN1yLCDs

Now, what makes this VERY SCARY is the fact that you are NOT buying in to your own account with a monthly fee, but you are being grouped into one large data path for all of these users that buy these radios. YOUR signals will be part of one large data path. That should give you a BAD feeling right off the bat.

  • Is there a monthly fee?​

    • Absolutely NOT! There is no monthly fees or contracts ever! We are the ONLY company in the USA to do this. Most of our competitors charge between $20-$30/mo per radio. We charge NOTHING! We have partnered with major data networks to provide us access to our infrastructure at an omnibus level - which allows us to make it so there is no monthly service fees for you - ever!
 

ShadowMan

Designated Grumpy Old Fart
Sooooo, if I understand you correctly, this "MAY BE" slightly better than having a regular cellphone in an emergency situation due to it's ability to lock on to different carriers and such....BUT, it's still relying on the cell phone system technology and if cell towers are down or disrupted you're still out of luck. Plus the "omnibus" aspect that a bunch of folks are communicating at the same time on the same carrier lines, thus jambing up the lines. Also, there's a question about privacy not to mention just getting on line. Is that sort of like the old telephone "Party Line" in a way?

Do you feel it's worth the investment as a "backup" comm? Would this be better than say getting a license for a Baofang or handheld HAM shortwave radio using repeaters to cover distance? Which is what I'm planning to do.
 

KFhunter

Veteran Member
I looked at these expensive options for hunting and outdoor activities

It would be nice if they had the option to send a gps coordinate data packet when you key a specific button, or just ptt speech, it would of course need a map on the display screen to see where your connected buddies are on your map.

Garmin rinos already do this, but they’re only a frs radio.

I wonder if Garmin will release a Nextel enabled rino?

That would be superior especially if you can toggle between frs or Nextel network to send your gps location packet, or to speak

Don’t say anything worthy of interception….
 

LoupGarou

Ancient Fuzzball
Sooooo, if I understand you correctly, this "MAY BE" slightly better than having a regular cellphone in an emergency situation due to it's ability to lock on to different carriers and such....BUT, it's still relying on the cell phone system technology and if cell towers are down or disrupted you're still out of luck. Plus the "omnibus" aspect that a bunch of folks are communicating at the same time on the same carrier lines, thus jambing up the lines. Also, there's a question about privacy not to mention just getting on line. Is that sort of like the old telephone "Party Line" in a way?
I don't think there will be a problem of you hearing everyone else, or everyone hearing you, but there are SERIOUS security issues with most RoIP systems. And while you won't overload the system if everyone starts talking at the same time, since it is store and forward packet systems (not demand realtime), just like text messages, it still could be a noticeable delay from when you talk to when the other person hears you if the system is bogged.

Do you feel it's worth the investment as a "backup" comm? Would this be better than say getting a license for a Baofang or handheld HAM shortwave radio using repeaters to cover distance? Which is what I'm planning to do.

As far as the whole system, no, I would not want it, or want to trust the security of it. Handheld radios (actual RF radios) are going to be short range, even with external "raised" antennas. 50 feet up on both ends could get you around 30 miles if everything else was good, but that is it. And it is not a power issue, as cranking it up to 1500 watts is still going to be under 40-50 miles and you are pretty much yelling at that point "Here I am!!!!!!!".

The best thing to do is start out by defining the "distance" factor that you want to overcome. Then go from there.
 

LoupGarou

Ancient Fuzzball
Always ask the experts. So I'm asking. What is recommended for more secure communications?
Depends on how secure you really want it (and whether it is pre- or post- shtf or wrol...)?

Anything that uses any public or private infrastructure I would not trust without some level of (nonstandard, because anything that is "public" or COTS is not truly secure) encryption on TOP of whatever carrier or data path you are using with your comms equipment.

You have to think outside the box sometimes (most of the time). CW, PSK or other data modes on things like AM or SSB CB radio (Europe is doing that a LOT right now), and then once TSHTF or WROL, roll out the OTP encryption.

Or, use COTS encryption with a filler of random characters here and there so that when the packets are sent, nobody knows for sure where the actual data starts and stops.

Then point is that everybody should be getting these systems and plans in place now (actually YEARS ago), and testing them often to make sure that once the shoe falls off the last foot, that you can still connect to who you need to. Having a pile of unprogrammed "Fengs" in the corner and plans to hit "the local repeater" may not cut it after the power has been out for a few days. Get out there and "Play" with what you have, NOW, while you can make changes or additions. Antenna upgrades, more coax, or even a repeater cable (to go from Feng to Feng in a waterproof box hung up in a tree) may be impossible to get once the stuff hits the air circulator. If you can't communicate NOW when times are (technically) good, don't expect it to all work groovy when the times are in the crapper.

That funny PACE plan comes into demand real quick when the "Spicy" knob is turned to 11. I would suggest anyone that wants comms to have at minimum a good GMRS or FRS/GMRS set of radios for local comms, a CB (SSB would be a major bonus), a good shortwave receiver (SSB capable again) and a Feng, and all the additional parts and pieces to go with them. The shortwave can monitor a almost all of the HF signals, the FENG can monitor most of the common VHF and lower UHF signals. The CB can pick up quite a bunch of local and not so local traffic, and they are everywhere. The FRS/GMRS will do for the local comms. But that could cover most of the Primary, Alternate, Contingency, and Emergency parts of the PACE plan. You will need options.

Don't rely on things that:
  • Need Infrastructure to work that you don't own or have any control over.
  • Use a communications path or circuit (including internet) that you don't control at all, or can guarantee isn't monitored
  • Use anything on a cell tower as anything that connects to them, gets tracked.
  • Use anything satellite based (same reason as cellular).

Yes, if you want real options for distance comms, you are going to need to get your amateur license now, practice and learn NOW, and then have the knowledge of things like NVIS and LPI data mode comms for later. Distance comms is either going to need higher power (bad) and lower frequency (good) and require a license, or you are going to have to use COTS equipment like SSB CBs, and digital modes that can keep your signal WELL below the noise floor like Olivia. With the right antenna, and digital modes, you don't need a 100+ watt radio, 10 watts or less will do just fine for hundreds or thousands of miles, you just have to know what bands to use and when to use them and have the receiving stations ready and on frequency at the right time (SCHEDS).

Even if all you have right now is a bubble pack of two FRS/GMRS radios and one CB (and you have a friend with another CB, get out and "play" with all of them to see what is possible during what times of the days, and during what other "variables" (Weather, sun activity, locations...). Log what you find so that you can share notes and work out with ALL of your team what works and what does not (and try multiple times during the day and even other days as things change). Hills are your friend, as long as you are on top of them, or better yet just slightly down the side of the hill that you want to transmit from (that way the rest of the hill above you blocks the signal in the direction you DON'T want your signal to go). Buildings can also be your friend if you can get up in them a few floors or more, OR can be your enemy if you have to transmit through them and then go a long distance after that. Forests are usually not your friend, especially on UHF, sometimes on VHF, and to a tiny degree on HF (think CB). Being mobile, even on foot or a bike is also a PLUS as you can find a "better spot" quicker, plus you are a moving target for anyone triangulating your signal.

Just things to think about....
 

Weps

Veteran Member
Depends on how secure you really want it (and whether it is pre- or post- shtf or wrol...)?

Anything that uses any public or private infrastructure I would not trust without some level of (nonstandard, because anything that is "public" or COTS is not truly secure) encryption on TOP of whatever carrier or data path you are using with your comms equipment.

You have to think outside the box sometimes (most of the time). CW, PSK or other data modes on things like AM or SSB CB radio (Europe is doing that a LOT right now), and then once TSHTF or WROL, roll out the OTP encryption.

Or, use COTS encryption with a filler of random characters here and there so that when the packets are sent, nobody knows for sure where the actual data starts and stops.

Then point is that everybody should be getting these systems and plans in place now (actually YEARS ago), and testing them often to make sure that once the shoe falls off the last foot, that you can still connect to who you need to. Having a pile of unprogrammed "Fengs" in the corner and plans to hit "the local repeater" may not cut it after the power has been out for a few days. Get out there and "Play" with what you have, NOW, while you can make changes or additions. Antenna upgrades, more coax, or even a repeater cable (to go from Feng to Feng in a waterproof box hung up in a tree) may be impossible to get once the stuff hits the air circulator. If you can't communicate NOW when times are (technically) good, don't expect it to all work groovy when the times are in the crapper.

That funny PACE plan comes into demand real quick when the "Spicy" knob is turned to 11. I would suggest anyone that wants comms to have at minimum a good GMRS or FRS/GMRS set of radios for local comms, a CB (SSB would be a major bonus), a good shortwave receiver (SSB capable again) and a Feng, and all the additional parts and pieces to go with them. The shortwave can monitor a almost all of the HF signals, the FENG can monitor most of the common VHF and lower UHF signals. The CB can pick up quite a bunch of local and not so local traffic, and they are everywhere. The FRS/GMRS will do for the local comms. But that could cover most of the Primary, Alternate, Contingency, and Emergency parts of the PACE plan. You will need options.

Don't rely on things that:
  • Need Infrastructure to work that you don't own or have any control over.
  • Use a communications path or circuit (including internet) that you don't control at all, or can guarantee isn't monitored
  • Use anything on a cell tower as anything that connects to them, gets tracked.
  • Use anything satellite based (same reason as cellular).

Yes, if you want real options for distance comms, you are going to need to get your amateur license now, practice and learn NOW, and then have the knowledge of things like NVIS and LPI data mode comms for later. Distance comms is either going to need higher power (bad) and lower frequency (good) and require a license, or you are going to have to use COTS equipment like SSB CBs, and digital modes that can keep your signal WELL below the noise floor like Olivia. With the right antenna, and digital modes, you don't need a 100+ watt radio, 10 watts or less will do just fine for hundreds or thousands of miles, you just have to know what bands to use and when to use them and have the receiving stations ready and on frequency at the right time (SCHEDS).

Even if all you have right now is a bubble pack of two FRS/GMRS radios and one CB (and you have a friend with another CB, get out and "play" with all of them to see what is possible during what times of the days, and during what other "variables" (Weather, sun activity, locations...). Log what you find so that you can share notes and work out with ALL of your team what works and what does not (and try multiple times during the day and even other days as things change). Hills are your friend, as long as you are on top of them, or better yet just slightly down the side of the hill that you want to transmit from (that way the rest of the hill above you blocks the signal in the direction you DON'T want your signal to go). Buildings can also be your friend if you can get up in them a few floors or more, OR can be your enemy if you have to transmit through them and then go a long distance after that. Forests are usually not your friend, especially on UHF, sometimes on VHF, and to a tiny degree on HF (think CB). Being mobile, even on foot or a bike is also a PLUS as you can find a "better spot" quicker, plus you are a moving target for anyone triangulating your signal.

Just things to think about....

What bands would you recommend using Olivia on?

I've seen Fldigi use MFSK64 to transmit data bursts, but never caught what band was being used.

EDIT:
What are your thoughts on an HT like the UV-9G? https://www.amazon.com/BAOFENG-Wate...5&psc=1&mcid=4964707074c23a7c9993fb8c14da36e1
 
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LoupGarou

Ancient Fuzzball
What bands would you recommend using Olivia on?

I've seen Fldigi use MFSK64 to transmit data bursts, but never caught what band was being used.

EDIT:
What are your thoughts on an HT like the UV-9G? https://www.amazon.com/BAOFENG-Wate...5&psc=1&mcid=4964707074c23a7c9993fb8c14da36e1
"Officially":
I would check a few of these lists.

This is what you are looking for on the waterfall:
olivia_flav.jpg
Taken from one of the links above....

Now, "Unofficially", especially after TSHTF, I would think about getting "creative" (even to the point of holding the radio's mic to the PC's speaker). Open bands? Find a busy spot or two that you have "pre-scheduled" and hide in plain sight deep underneath the other signals. Just like with the other digital modes (and CW), you won't need to run full wattage to get the distance you want like you would with SSB voice. When band conditions almost force you to use 100 watts on SSB voice, then with PSK31 and Olivia can usually use 10-20 watts or less to get the same distance. And if you switch to WSPR, FT8 or it's derivatives, or some of the other newer ones, you can drop it down to 5 watts or less. If the band conditions are great, then you are looking at 3-5 watts on PSK31 and Olivia, and less than a watt on WSPR, FT8(XX) and the rest. On the receiving end, as long as you know the frequency and "offset" you don't have to be able to hear or see the incoming signal on the waterfall, the receiver and digital mode demodulator will be able to pick it out of the weeds.
 

LoupGarou

Ancient Fuzzball
As far as the Baofeng, I don't own one, but I have seen a few and played with one. There "supposedly" are a few "mods" for that model that may make the little GMRS radio more amateur radio usable, at the expense of blowing the GMRS certification when active...

Personally, my favorite handhelds are the Radioddity GM-30 for GMRS that way the rest of my family can have a GMRS radio that will receive almost anything else and keep legal, and the Kenwood TH-F6A for Amateur (and everything else since it has receive almost form DC to 1.3GHz with SSB).
 

Tundra Gypsy

Veteran Member
Could your radio signal help the bad guys track you down and do you harm? (Chinese? I guess I've read too many books by A. American.
 

LoupGarou

Ancient Fuzzball
One other little note on the Baofengs and other chinese radios: Most of them, including many of the GMRS radios, have an OTA (Over The Air) Stun, Kill, Revive (and others) feature that can be remotely used against your radio if they know the frequency that you are using to receive on, and they know some of the other settings in your radio (radio ID, Group codes...). I'm not sure if the UV-9G has this built in, but you may want to research the "Stun, Kill, Revive" (SKR) features that are on these radios and how they work so in case someone sends a bulk Kill or bulk Stun sequence (OTA brute force attack), you can revive your radio and get back on the air.

The guys over in ukraine found out all to quickly the hard way that most of the chinese radios have this "feature" (put in there in china as they are usually used as business band radios over there for rent, and this lets them remotely "kill" the radio till the person brings it back). The russians figured out real quick that they could send a stream of DTMF codes out as a sequence and cover the majority of the SKR pin codes in a matter of a few minutes. The ukranians learned to roll their radio IDs to something other than factory, and to cut off their radios as soon as they hear a boatload of DTMF on their frequency so that the radios don't get "killed", and they become a target.

I did mention "and other" functions as some of the chinese radios have the ability to send a SKR type of sequence, and get your radio to either send back a short no-audio transmit, OR send back a GPS coord if the radio has one, OR (and this one is golden...) LOCK the transmit on with the MIC live so not only are you now a beacon for your team to be targeted by, you are also transmitting local audio back out. If the radio is in your hand, you may notice it doing this (the red transmit light DOES still turn on when this happens), and it nails the battery quickly, but you are a freakin' beacon for those 10-20 minutes. And ,just like Stun and Kill, these other functions don't reset back if you turn off the radio, or pull the battery. Once you turn it back on, or put the battery back in and turn it back on, it goes back to transmitting...
 

LoupGarou

Ancient Fuzzball
Could your radio signal help the bad guys track you down and do you harm? (Chinese? I guess I've read too many books by A. American.
That is almost always a concern if you are transmitting. There are ways to make that a lot safer for you, and more complicated for the enemy, but there are always risks when transmitting.

If you really want to see what is possible, research "Hawkeye360"...
That is just ONE of the satellite based systems out there, and there are hundreds that can be quickly deployed on land as well, like WOLFPACK.

Again, if you know what you are doing, you can make their day miserable, which is why everyone should have at least ONE person in their group that is at MINIMUM an amateur radio person that practices often, and if that is not possible, have one or two take some serious training on both SIGINT and ElectroMagentic (EM) warfare, and learn the secrets of how to "stay below the noise floor" and other tricks.
 
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