[gvt]FBI Agents knew Elohim City/ARA involved OKC

Wise Owl

Deceased
Ok, and now you people are going to believe that our media(tv stuff) is not cooperating with the FBI and spreading false items? The FBI even tried to frame Nichols brother for the crime. They signed him into a motel in OK when he was in Mi and nowhere's near the city. There is a whole lot more to all of this than meets the eye. Two FBI agents from the Detroit area where seen in the basement of the Murrah building the day before the bombing with suspicious materials. Putty(platique) and electrical wire. These men were dressed as maintenance men.
More on this tonight when I get home from work.
 

bigwavedave

Deceased
CeeBee wrote - One possibility: the FBI had infiltrated the group, had the opportunity to prevent the bombing, bungled it (they were fooled), and did not want this to be revealed.

from what i have heard about McVeigh's sensibilities, this would be exactly the scenario he would love to exploit. yet, until recently, he insisted that his execution not be further delayed. why take the fall if he can leave the FBI dangling in the wind?

the group isn't concerned about their protection if the FBI knows about them already, so they would not advise McVeigh to take the fall.

martyrdom? would this group find great support with a martyr for their cause? that doesn't work unless they 'come out' after the execution. nobody is suddenly going to like these guys if that were to happen.

A darker possibility is that a rogue unit of the FBI that infiltrated the group are the ones that in effect pulled the strings that led to the bombing of their own federal building for whatever reason. The theory that the government is "in on" the bombing is a popular one in conspiracy circles, and has some limited credence. After all, a whole lot of federal agents conveniently failed to show up for work that day!

a patriotic, pro-constitution, rogue unit in the FBI was in on it? they were disgusted with Waco and Ruby Ridge and (the list goes on)? or what other type of rogues did you have in mind?

the group i just described would also be known as traitors as outlined by the Constitution.

not that his isn't how it went down. i'm tending to lean towards the 2nd theory myself.

i still have to wonder why McVeigh, who must know more than what he is saying if these theories are substantiated, is allowed to continue living? i would have arranged for some sort of accident or murder a long time ago.
 

CeeBee

Inactive
All I can say is that once the FBI decided that they wanted a lone gunman/patsy in McVeigh (and he conveniently cooperated, wanting the glory for himself and/or 'patriotically' refused to give up his comrades), they didn't want to look much further. True, they couldn't ignore McNichols, but they downplayed his role. Little dumbass McVeigh as the "mastermind." Yeah right.

Once they had their patsy, they shooed away anyone who tried to get close to any other leads, whether it was ARA/Elohim, bin laden, or Saddam Hussein.

Something very ugly went down that day that went far beyond a fertilizer/fuel oil bomb in a rental truck, I truly believe.
 

Gods1sheep

Deceased
I agree with all of you that there HAS to have been some sort of government involvement, whether in the execution of the deed, or the cover-up or both. How I wonder if we will ever get the truth!?

The other fellow (his name is in the articles about this)who substantiated a wider plot/group and was about to be interviewed suddenly "committed suicide" (?) in his cell by hanging by a bedsheet. You know...like Jack Ruby had a heart attack in his cell.
 

brkthr

Deceased
Along with the knowledgable people and crucial evidence that vanished in that crater ,
The perception of Patriots being evil was re-enforced ,in the minds of the public.

Plenty of foreign bad guys were mentioned,to ratchet up the fear factor.

The potential loss of Liberty that was gained, through the antiterrorist legislation and martial law/fema executive orders, made Thomas Jefferson roll in his grave.


I'd say that multipurpose event was a total success.
 

Hamilton Felix

Inactive
I do NOT for a moment believe it was all done with one ANFO bomb out in the street in a truck. And I don't think coincidence explains why NO FBI or BATF agents were there that morning.

But who did it is far less important that what it was used for. The parallel to the Reichstag fire is inescapable. I can believe Hitler knew about the Reichstag fire. I can believe Clinton knew about OKC. Or maybe they really didn't. Doesn't matter. How it was used matters. Clinton's success was slightly less than that of Hitler. If the Clinton/Gore regime had continued, we could be certain of more "events." I don't really trust the present crowd, though, so I won't be totally surprised if it happens again -- right down to the fed bulldozing evidence that is still warm... :mad:
 

Gods1sheep

Deceased
Accomplices known to FBI
Document provides evidence
tying white racists to McVeigh

By Jon Dougherty

© 2001 WorldNetDaily.com

A former FBI agent involved in the original Oklahoma City bombing investigation was given details of a relationship between convicted
bomber Timothy McVeigh and members of a white supremacist group that may have helped the Gulf War vet commit the April 19, 1995,
attack against the Alfred P. Murrah Building.

Investigative journalist J. D. Cash and his employer, Bruce Willingham, editor of the McCurtain Daily Gazette newspaper, told WND they
provided their information to former FBI Special Agent Ricardo "Rick" J. W. Ojeda in 1997 – including details that allegedly link McVeigh
and members of the Aryan Republican Army to Elohim City, a white supremacist haunt in northeastern Oklahoma.

In an April 14, 1997, meeting at the newspaper's offices with Ojeda and Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigation Special Agent Chris Dill,
some of the evidence laid out by Cash and Willingham was not yet known to FBI investigators, both men told WND.

Details of that meeting, which included evidence tying McVeigh and ARA members to Elohim City, were documented by Ojeda on a
standard FBI Form "302" – the form used by agents to transcribe the contents of meetings, witness statements and other evidence gathered
during investigations. A copy of a portion of that 302 was provided to WorldNetDaily.

Separately, the newspaper also gave the FBI a copy of a surveillance videotape it had obtained, showing a female employee of a Tulsa,
Okla., "gentleman's club" telling co-workers that some of her customers had mentioned an "event" that was to occur on "April 19, 1995,"
that would make her customers famous.

The new details come on the heels of complaints made by Ojeda to CBS News' "60 Minutes II" program on Tuesday, when he said that
evidence he obtained during the OKC investigation that may have aided McVeigh's and convicted co-conspirator Terry Nichols' defense
was either ignored or not properly documented by the FBI.

Ojeda has since been fired by the FBI over what he claims was retaliation for charges of racism he leveled at FBI managers. Prior to his
firing, Ojeda had received a commendation from the FBI for his work on the case.

It was not known whether the 302 obtained by WND was a document that Ojeda claims may have never been turned over to senior FBI
officials. And WND could not confirm that the original 302 is part of the more than 4,000 documents the FBI claimed it had failed to turn
over to McVeigh's original defense team earlier this month.

Descriptions fit McVeigh, ARA members

According to Cash and Willingham, the original surveillance tape came from a Tulsa night spot called "Lady Godiva's." The owner of the
club, Floyd Ratliff, made the paper aware of the contents of the tape, Cash told WorldNetDaily.

The female employee's comments were recorded April 8, 1995 – which was a Saturday night just 11 days before the bombing – at around 9
p.m., according to a clock on the wall captured on the video.

After the paper received the tape, Cash said he went to the club to show the female employee and others who were working that night
pictures of McVeigh and others he may have associated with.

"She is heard in the tape telling other women in the room that one of her customers told her she would never forget him 'come April 19,'"
Cash told WND. "When we showed her some pictures, she identified McVeigh, [Michael] Brescia, and [Andreas] Strassmeir."

Brescia, WND reported earlier this week, was listed in a federal grand jury indictment for bank robbery in 1997 as
being a member of the Aryan Republican Army. Strassmeir, a former German army officer, has extensive ties to
Elohim City, according to government documents.

"That night, the female employee told us Brescia was paying for the drinks," Cash said,
adding that an investigator from NBC – whom he did not name – accompanied him to
Lady Godiva's to do the interviews.

Willingham, who confirmed Cash's statements to WND, also noted that during the
course of interviewing witnesses at the club, the "head of security" – or bouncer –
reported noticing an older Ryder rental truck parked in the club's lot.

According to evidence presented by the defense during Nichols' 1997 trial in Denver,
Colo., "it was two days later when the sightings of another Ryder truck began [to
circulate] in Kansas," Cash said, adding that the Ryder truck actually used to bomb the
Murrah building was "much newer."

McVeigh, trial transcripts show, wasn't spotted in Junction City, Kan., until April 14.
The same transcripts say that he rented the Ryder truck used in the bombing April 17.

'John Doe 2' identified

According to Ojeda's report, another man - Dennis Mahon - who was known to frequent Elohim City, was identified to Cash first by a
reporter from CBS and then by one from The New York Times that Mahon "was involved in the bombing of the Murrah Building in
Oklahoma City. …"

"During some interviews with some Aryan Nations people," Cash said, "the CBS guy said during one of his interviews, off the record, said
that Mahon in Tulsa was believed to be involved in it."

Later on, in November 1995, Ojeda's report said, a New York Times correspondent told Cash that Mahon "was someone capable of
violence."

"I was told one of the most dangerous guys in the country is right there in Tulsa, so those were some of the early hints" that Mahon may
have played a role, Cash told WND.

According to Ojeda's report, Cash said once Mahon was identified as a suspect in connection with Elohim City, he began to hold a series of
interviews with him. During the course of those interviews, Mahon told Cash that "Mike Brescia was John Doe #2 and that the only good
sketch of him was the sketch depicting the side view of John Doe #2."

Mahon also made references to another known ARA member, Mark W. Thomas, Cash told the FBI.

According to Ojeda's report, Mahon said that "Thomas 'is in this up to his ass,'" and that "if Thomas goes down, I'm going down too."

Thomas, along with Brescia and Peter K. Langan, Scott A. Stedeford, Kevin W. McCarthy and Richard Guthrie (now deceased) were
indicted by a federal grand jury in Pennsylvania Jan. 30, 1997, for bank robbery.

Mahon, Cash said, was a former Imperial Dragon for the Ku Klux Klan for Kansas, Oklahoma and Missouri, as well as a "national and
international white racist figure." At the time Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms opened up investigation of Mahon and Elohim
City, "he was No. 2 guy in White Aryan Resistance – W.A.R.," Cash told WND.

Elohim City key to bombing?

Throughout the course of his more than six-year investigation into the bombing, Cash and others say any time evidence of alleged
conspirators has pointed to Elohim City, the investigation appears to "just die."

"Detail after detail of evidence implicated Elohim City, Strassmeir, Mahon, the ARA and McVeigh to the bombing," Cash said, discussing
the contents of his and Willingham's 1997 meeting with Ojeda. "That's part of what [federal officials] did not cough up" years ago, prior to
McVeigh's federal trial in Denver later that same year, he believes.

"I never dreamed it might not be getting to FBI investigators," he added.

Cash said he could not disclose who helped him infiltrate the white supremacist movement in order to learn so much about Elohim City
and those who frequented the community in the time leading up to the bombing.

But, he did say that "Ojeda is a good cop," and that the former special agent, "on more than one occasion during [our] interview …
slammed his fist down on the table and looked at the other agent and said, 'This is the key. This is the key. This is the key to the whole
thing.'"

"And he added, 'Strassmeir is central to all of this.' But he was completely frustrated" by the FBI's lack of progress or misdirection.

"He really wanted to solve this case," Cash said.

Yesterday, Attorney General John Ashcroft said the Justice Department would continue to oppose another stay in McVeigh's execution.

"No document in this case creates any doubt about McVeigh's guilt or establishes his innocence. To overturn the jury's verdict or to force a
new trial, McVeigh must prove that the documents establish his innocence," Ashcroft said in a statement.

"Based on overwhelming evidence and McVeigh's own repeated admissions, we know that he is responsible for this crime, and we will
continue to pursue justice by seeking to carry out the sentence that was determined by a jury," the statement said.

Nevertheless, McVeigh, now 33, authorized his attorneys yesterday to seek a delay to his June 11 execution, accusing the U.S. government
of fraud for failing to turn over evidence it had collected before his trial.

"He is convinced ... that the Department of Justice and the FBI will not otherwise be held to account unless he takes this action," Rob Nigh,
one of McVeigh's attorneys, told reporters Thursday.

Nigh and another McVeigh attorney, Richard Burr, said they would file a 40-page application for a stay of execution along with 300 pages
of back-up material with Judge Richard Matsch of the U.S. District Court in Denver, Reuters reported.

One source, who asked not to be identified, said some of Cash's findings – perhaps even Ojeda's 302 – could be part of a stash of new
documents being gathered by McVeigh's attorneys.

"There are other agents besides Ojeda that will confirm McVeigh's links to Elohim City," Cash said. "They turned all of this stuff over to
their superiors, but did not show up either" in the documents given to Jones, McVeigh's original attorney.

"I want to see these agents step forward now," Cash said. "I talked to those agents who turned this stuff in – but where is it?"

Racist, Elohim City connection substantiated

"Ojeda probably does have some bad feelings" with the FBI because of his firing, Willingham told WND. "But the other side of that is that
at the time the [night club surveillance] tape was revealed to him … he said he was surprised that [the FBI] wasn't taking more interest in
it."

"That stuck in my mind, because you normally don't hear a federal agent say something like that," Willingham added. "After we gave him
the tape, I was kind of curious what the FBI's reaction to it was."

Mark Hamm, an Indiana State University criminologist who is writing a book about the white supremacist connection to the OKC
bombing, substantiated much of what Cash has discovered regarding Elohim City, McVeigh, and the ARA.

"Based on the FBI 302 from one Richard Guthrie [an ARA member] and his unpublished memoir before he killed himself in jail," Hamm
told WND, "as well as some interviews I've done with other surviving members of the ARA and a death-row inmate in contact with
McVeigh, I've been able to put McVeigh and the ARA together starting as early as October 1993, around the Elohim City/Fort Smith
[Arkansas]."

Hamm said both McVeigh and Aryan Republican Army members were in "about a half dozen different geographical locations at the same
time, where bank robberies or armored car robberies are either being carried out or planned."

The criminologist said McVeigh and the other ARA members operated under the concept of "leaderless resistance," whereby "one cell did
not know about other cells," and "of those cell members who were known, perhaps they were only known by their first name or code
names."

"The theory I'm working on is this," Hamm said. "If you take those half dozen meetings surrounding the robberies … beginning as early as
October 1993, extending up until February or March of 1995, if you believe that - that there was a conspiracy going on between these guys
during that time – then I don't think it is an enormous leap of faith to assume that there was something going between April 5 and April 19,
1995, surrounding the bombing."

Hamm said his research has shown that McVeigh and other ARA members were in close proximity in the days leading up to the actual
bombing.

"They were either in Kansas, Oklahoma or Elohim City," he said. "Evidence does show they are switching cars, buying cars under false
identification. And I'm convinced they got a hold of a second Ryder truck … which has been confirmed" in newly released FBI 302s, he
claimed.

"The government claims that McVeigh and Nichols built the truck bomb at Geary Lake, near Junction City, Kansas," Hamm said. "Other
evidence" from witnesses indicates that more than one Ryder truck "and a number of vehicles and people are seen in and around Geary
Lake in the days leading up to the bombing," he added.

"I believe it's some kind of elaborate shell game," Hamm said. "The ARA operated under decoys, ruses and deceptions, garnered from
examples" learned from tactics used by the Irish Republican Army.

FBI evidence logs obtained by WND earlier this week show that IRA-related books, as well as Irish media and newspapers, were
discovered in the possession of ARA members when they were arrested in January 1997.

"We had been providing information, as we found it out, to the FBI for some time," McCurtain Gazette editor Willingham told WND.
"Some of it they knew about, but some of it they clearly did not know."

Willingham said the FBI contacted him and "asked for a meeting" with reporter Cash once they discovered he may have evidence they
didn't have.

McVeigh's attorneys indicated yesterday that they could be in possession of some of this evidence.

"We are confident that if the evidence comes out as we believe it is there, that there will be some credible evidence that other people were
involved," McVeigh attorney Richard Burr said.


(Edited to add a category :) )

[ 06-01-2001: Message edited by: Vipper ]
 

bigwavedave

Deceased
let's say McVeigh is deeply involved with a white supremacy group. let's say this group directed the OKC incident.

now, why is it the FBI would not want to prosecute these guys?
 

CeeBee

Inactive
Originally posted by bigwavedave:
<STRONG>let's say McVeigh is deeply involved with a white supremacy group. let's say this group directed the OKC incident.

now, why is it the FBI would not want to prosecute these guys?</STRONG>

One possibility: the FBI had infiltrated the group, had the opportunity to prevent the bombing, bungled it (they were fooled), and did not want this to be revealed.

A darker possibility is that a rogue unit of the FBI that infiltrated the group are the ones that in effect pulled the strings that led to the bombing of their own federal building for whatever reason. The theory that the government is "in on" the bombing is a popular one in conspiracy circles, and has some limited credence. After all, a whole lot of federal agents conveniently failed to show up for work that day!
 

brkthr

Deceased
What we are dealing with here is the NWO/ Fourth Reich.
Many objectives were satisfied when those bombs went off ,they are all patsies.
Remember the Reichstag!
 
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