Do you have Back To Eden Garden disorder?

[Kathy in FL]

You didn't watch the Back to Eden movie did you? I find it amazing that most complaints that people are voicing are actually covered in the movie.

For those that watched, remember that he had chickens? Remember when he took the chicken waste and spread it out on his garden?

He also pointed out that what was being dumped wasn't just wood. It included leaves and needles. He specifically says in the film that plain wood wouldn't work as well. You need the natural mix.

People, please watch the film before you start complaining. It's really annoying.

Back to Eden really couldn't be used for large scale agriculture. But anything that cuts back on weeding and watering is worth a try for our personal garden. Especially if and when the day comes that watering won't be possible.

I did watch the vid actually. Chickens and/or geese do NOT keep down fire ants, invasive roach species, or termites especially if they are subterranean rather than dry wood species. If birds were able to deal with those pets we would have no problems with them here in Florida as we have year round populations as well as cold weather visitors that more than double the population. In my yard alone i have a nest of red tailed hawks, several different nesting families of song birds, every day the blue herons and cow birds come check out the lawn for goodies. I also have a healthy population of owls and bats that live in the swamp year round as well.

The chickens in the vid did not go into the planted ares or they would have scratched away the chips that the plants were in ... The top was too loose as you could tell how he was barely raking and the weeds came out.

I am sure that the method works for some gardeners and in some environments.however in my environment it does not and for the reasons I stated.

 

[ainitfunny]

You actually make your garden soil WORSE by putting undecomposed wood chips into the soil.
I have been told WOOD keeps STRIPPING THE NITROGEN FROM THE SOIL AS IT DECOMPOSES, killing plants for lack of nitrogen.

 

[tm1439m]

Naturallysweet I think you are the one who needs to quit complaining and read before you quote some one. You either have no clue what you read or never read it. Barry made himself very clear and was very helpful in his post. I do not see one complaint by him in the entire post, only very experienced advise which is greatly appreciated by most here at TB2K. He agrees with the system but added he does a similar but slightly different method with good results. Thanks Barry.

You didn't watch the Back to Eden movie did you? I find it amazing that most complaints that people are voicing are actually covered in the movie.

For those that watched, remember that he had chickens? Remember when he took the chicken waste and spread it out on his garden?

He also pointed out that what was being dumped wasn't just wood. It included leaves and needles. He specifically says in the film that plain wood wouldn't work as well. You need the natural mix.

People, please watch the film before you start complaining. It's really annoying.

Back to Eden really couldn't be used for large scale agriculture. But anything that cuts back on weeding and watering is worth a try for our personal garden. Especially if and when the day comes that watering won't be possible.

I included a copy of his post so you would not have to look for it.

I do something similar to Back to Eden, but I use a three part mix of 1/3 fresh grass clippings, 1/3 chopped autumn leaves and only 1/3 small, broken branches or twigs.


One reason I try to avoid use of wood chips is because it is harder to see if they are infested with termites than if I pick up the pruned tree branches that folks put on the side of the road in late winter or after a major storm.


I go around picking up people's prunings, and then in the late afternoon when my wife, daughter and I are sitting around watching the chickens play (great entertainment, I might add), we just take pruners and we cut or break the small twigs into 6 inch pieces. It is very relaxing work -- but it also allows us to identify any wood that is diseased or has termites or other pests on it. If we find that kind of stuff, we toss it -- very carefully, of course.


But also, I look over the pruned stuff pretty good while it is still on the side of the road. If I see any insect infestation, or disease -- I just move on. Way too many tree prunings available in the late winter/early spring for me to waste my time and effort on insect ridden or diseased wood.


Thing is, if you are ONLY using small branches or wood chips in your garden, you need so much of the stuff that you will have a hard time policing what you bring on to your property. The volume of stuff you have to import itself will cause you to be less than 100% vigilant.


By using a mixture of fresh grass, chopped autumn leaves AND wood to build the garden, you reduce your need of wood by 2/3rds, and it is now much easier to carefully police the 1/3 wood product that you do import.


Just another reason why I recommend modifying the Back to Eden method to using the organic mulch mix rather than 100% woody product....

 

[plantman]

You actually make your garden soil WORSE by putting undecomposed wood chips into the soil.
I have been told WOOD keeps STRIPPING THE NITROGEN FROM THE SOIL AS IT DECOMPOSES, killing plants for lack of nitrogen.

Perfect example of someone who didn't watch the movie. Congratulations ainitfunny, you just won the internet!

 

[Kathy in FL]

Perfect example of someone who didn't watch the movie. Congratulations ainitfunny, you just won the internet!

He was referring to the people that didn't realize that the woodchips stay on the surface ... others had spoken of tilling them in like the man in the vid had. Y'all need to relax a little on the sacred cows before they wind up all diseased and sickly. The method while successful for some, isn't a panacea nor a miracle.

 

[plantman]

He was referring to the people that didn't realize that the woodchips stay on the surface ... others had spoken of tilling them in like the man in the vid had. Y'all need to relax a little on the sacred cows before they wind up all diseased and sickly. The method while successful for some, isn't a panacea nor a miracle.

No biggie, I didn't get that from what aint said, but its ok.

Also, this isn't any sacred cow, its just a method and a fantastic one. I'm hard pressed to find anything wrong with it.

 

[Kathy in FL]

No biggie, I didn't get that from what aint said, but its ok.

Also, this isn't any sacred cow, its just a method and a fantastic one. I'm hard pressed to find anything wrong with it.

It is a successful method ... for some folks. I was certainly impressed enough to sink my hard earned money into it and give it a try. But like I've found more than once, what works for some won't necessarily work for others. Environment, humidity, yearly precipitation, etc. will force adjustments. My biscuits certainly aren't burned because the method didn't pan out for me ... I just got irritated at the necessity of destroying a small garden plot with chemicals due to pest population explosion; I don't use chemicals at all when I can get away with it as I have a pond and swamp right behind the house that I am trying to turn into a safe food source.

 

[Countrymouse]

Ok--have I messed up here? Need advice...

First, I've never watched "Back to Eden".

I just know that good compost builds good soil.

We have VERY sandy soil--it may as well be a sponge--and in drought years, I can barely water enough to keep the plants alive, much less producing. The water just goes right in and on down to the water table, and the ground is as dry and fine as talcum powder. It's only got red clay further down, and that is hardpan and no good for growing things. The topsoil is a light brown, and turns grayish-white when dried out in the sun.

now.

I knew it needed compost, but the yard clippings and leaves never seemed to be enough.

I had been considering buying several truckloads of compost, when last fall the electric company kindly solved the problem for me by INSISTING on cutting down an over-one-hundred-year-old pine tree at the edge of the road (they said it was too close to the wires, but they have a ridiculous new policy where they're clear-cutting everything--even bushes--within a certain distance of the lines).

Anyway, they came in and cut down the tree, and chopped it up, and gave me the clippings---which made a pile about 10 feet high and 20 feet in diameter out next to my field. My hubby and sons and I spread it all out over our garden one day in December (the center of the pile had already begun decomposing into a nice black mulch, though the outside chips were still hard and intact). The pile covered our entire garden area to a depth of about 6 inches. We then added on top of that piles and piles of oak leaves from the yard, and some grass clippings. Late in December, we finally got a man to come over with his tractor and turn it all under with his harrows, and he did a great job of doing that.

Now I hear that, instead of building up my poor sandy soil, I may have depleted it of all its nitrogen?

So...........what do I do now?

 

[WalknTrot]

Countrymouse,

It's hard to say. If the wood isn't breaking down real fast, you may be OK. With pure sand like you describe, you are between a rock and a hard place anyway. You need something in the dirt to hold water.

If I were you, I'd try planting something early as possible this spring that is a real nitrogen feeder...maybe like onions. If they do well, you should be OK.

I'm not one who minds using commercial fertilizer, so I'd personally salt it heavy with cheap lawn fertilizer (it's all nitrogen) but that's just me. And don't forget...you can always take soil samples to your County Extension Office and have them analyzed. It's reasonably priced.

 

[Belties]

When I was first introduced to this method of gardening I couldn't wait to try it. In theory I think it would work great. However, last year in my part of the world in rained and rained and seemed to never stop. I had a layer of wood chips and then straw on top of those. They only held the water in an already heavily saturated area and all my plants rotted. Cabbage, tomatoes, eggplants. I replanted twice and finally removed the mulch and planted a third time. This is an area where drainage has never been a problem before. In a normal year, the mulch would probably work well, last year was a distaster.

 

[Timber]

He was getting his mulch from a tub grinder contractor. If you look closely, it looks like there is more organic matter than wood chips matter. Tub grinders are used primarily for grinding treetops, and stumps pulled from the ground. There’s going to be soil in the mix also.

If you have moles then add this ideal earthworm bedding you’ll have full-blown mole problem.

 

[Kathy in FL]

Countrymouse ... my parents have a bunch of sand like that and my father puts lime on it to, in his words, "Sweeten the soil." At our BOL we have some sugar sand in places that won't grow a weed it is so bad. I keep piling on the organic matter to try and build it up but even after five years it has only improved slightly.

We have a pure gray sand here where I am at now. We lived at our old house for fifteen years and I had it built up wonderfully well ... except for one narrow strip where I simply dug it out and replaced it with dirt I had hauled in. Here at the new house I have a long way to go to get to what I used to have even though they kept horses on the property for years. It isn't just organic matter than sand needs but minerals as well.

To see how much organic matter you have in your sand take some and put it in a jar with a lid then add water so that it covers the sand by several inches. Put the lid on the jar and then shake it up well. Let the resulting mess settle and you should have an layer of floating organic stuff at the top of the water. The less you have floating the more organic stuff you need to add. A few inches on top every season isn't going to do it if you are starting with nothing. And even after you start you'll likely still need to top dress certain plants to make sure they get the nutrients they need.

Before we moved I kept a bucket of lime, a bucket of bone meal, a bucket of blood meal, and bags of dedicated amendments for various plants. I also had to watch what I mulched with. Some plants like the acid added by pine straw and it would kill other plants. Some plants, like strawberries, thrive with black mulch paper but it would fry other plants.

For liquid fertilizer the best I've found is manure tea but again, watch the strength you use or you'll burn your plants up ... but on the plus side it is purely organic so run off problems would be minimal as long as you don't get silly and dump it straight into the pond or stream.

Fish guts will add nitrogen but the smell can be overpowering and the racoons, along with feral cats and dogs, can be next to impossible to keep out of the garden if you use it directly prior to composting.

 

[Barry Natchitoches]

First, I've never watched "Back to Eden".

I just know that good compost builds good soil.

We have VERY sandy soil--it may as well be a sponge--and in drought years, I can barely water enough to keep the plants alive, much less producing. The water just goes right in and on down to the water table, and the ground is as dry and fine as talcum powder. It's only got red clay further down, and that is hardpan and no good for growing things. The topsoil is a light brown, and turns grayish-white when dried out in the sun.

now.

I knew it needed compost, but the yard clippings and leaves never seemed to be enough.

I had been considering buying several truckloads of compost, when last fall the electric company kindly solved the problem for me by INSISTING on cutting down an over-one-hundred-year-old pine tree at the edge of the road (they said it was too close to the wires, but they have a ridiculous new policy where they're clear-cutting everything--even bushes--within a certain distance of the lines).

Anyway, they came in and cut down the tree, and chopped it up, and gave me the clippings---which made a pile about 10 feet high and 20 feet in diameter out next to my field. My hubby and sons and I spread it all out over our garden one day in December (the center of the pile had already begun decomposing into a nice black mulch, though the outside chips were still hard and intact). The pile covered our entire garden area to a depth of about 6 inches. We then added on top of that piles and piles of oak leaves from the yard, and some grass clippings. Late in December, we finally got a man to come over with his tractor and turn it all under with his harrows, and he did a great job of doing that.

Now I hear that, instead of building up my poor sandy soil, I may have depleted it of all its nitrogen?

So...........what do I do now?

Sand does not hold nutrient very well. Just the nature of the soil type.


But as far as what you did, it would HAVE to improve the sandy soil in time. Just not right now. Right now, yeah -- you are probably depleting the soil of nitrogen. By next year -- well, probably a half a year from now -- your sandy soil will be improved.


Why don't you add some organic form of nitrogen to the soil, to help out at least the top two or three inches of soil (personally, I would NOT deep till it into your soil)?


Do you drink coffee? Work at an office that fixes coffee each morning? Live near a restaurant that will give you used coffee grounds if you ask for them?


Used coffee grounds are a great source of nitrogen for the soil -- and BTW, they are NOT too acidic to do the job. Most of the acid seems to get washed out of the grounds when the coffee water runs through the grounds. Starbucks actually paid an independent lab to analyze their used grounds, and the lab found used coffee grounds to be very beneficial for organic gardens. I use LOTS of used coffee grounds in my garden, along with fresh grass clippings, to add nitrogen to my garden.


Other forms of nitrogen you could use: fresh vegetable clippings from the kitchen, corn meal, bone meal, blood meal, alfalfa meal, cottonseed meal, soybean meal, ground up beans or peas, aged manure from barnyard animals (including cows, chickens, sheep, lambs, goats, and turkeys. Horse manure USED to be a good source of nitrogen, but since about 2006, horse manure is showing up with undigested herbicides that will kill alot of plants in the garden, so you need to test horse manure before you use it in the garden. Mother Earth News has a really good online article about this on their website.) NEVER USE dog, cat or human manure in your food garden.


But again: you really didn't harm your soil. There are just better ways that you could have used the materials you had available to you. No big deal. If I had a nickel for every mistake I made in my garden over the years....

 

[Barry Natchitoches]

I noticed somebody writing about "sweetening the soil", ie, administering lime to the soil.


People swear that all soil in my area must be limed once a year, every fall.


If you take a class with the extension service -- even the more indepth training that master gardeners get -- they will go to great length to explain to you about how to do soil tests, and how to administer lime as a result of those soil tests. Never do they even remotely consider the possibility that one might be able to set up a garden bed that did not need yearly liming.



Well, I send in my soil tests each year, and they NEVER come back saying I need to lime.


The reason?


The organic mulch that I recommend: 1/3 fresh grass clippings, 1/3 chopped autumn leaves and 1/3 small, broken branches or twigs works to feed a WIDE VARIETY of different beneficial soil micro-organisms.


The fresh grass clippings feed the soil bacteria, and the earthworms.


The chopped autumn leaves feed the soil's fungi, and the earthworms.


Since both grass clippings and chopped leaves have a tendency to matt up when on the surface of the soil for very long, the small, broken branches mixed in to the grass clippings and chopped leaves keep the rest of the mix from matting up, thus insuring that air and moisture -- both vital for both the soil microorganisms and our plant roots -- will be able to get through. Also, the branches will compost, but they will be slower to compost than the leaves, so they tend to feed the soil fungi over the longer term (a year or more).


Now, the fact that you are feeding BOTH the beneficial soil bacteria AND the beneficial soil fungi has a direct effect on the soil's pH.


You see, bacteria secrete a slimy substance that is alkaline in pH. Have you ever left something in your fridge too long, and ended up with a slimy mess? THAT is the result of bacteria working on the food in your fridge. The bacteria created that slime as they were working on that food. And if you use litmus paper to test the pH of that slime, you will find it is very alkaline.


Meantime, soil fungi secrete a substance that is acidic in nature.


IF YOU FEED BOTH THE SOIL BACTERIA AND THE SOIL FUNGI ON A REGULAR BASIS, THEN the alkaline nature of the bacteria's slime will mitigate the acidic nature of the fungi's acidic secretions -- and the result is a soil that has a pH of around 6.2 to 6.4 -- PERFECT pH for most garden plants.


Nobody can understand how I do not lime, yet every year come up with soil that has a perfect pH for growing food.


I tell them how I do it, but alot of them are so entrenched in the chemical way of doing things coupled with the mandatory liming that chemical gardens require, that they just can't wrap their heads around the fact that it is actually possible to get soil with the proper pH just by cultivating and feeding the proper ratio of bacteria to fungi in the garden soil.


As long as people insist on using chemicals in the soil, they will have to lime (ie, "sweeten the soil") each year -- at least if they live east of the Mississippi River.


Change over to an organic mix that feeds BOTH the beneficial soil bacteria AND the beneficial soil fungi, and within twelve to eighteen months after using this method and no chemical at all, you will find your soil tests come out in the 6.2 to 6.4 pH range.


Don't believe me?


Try it for yourself, and find out.

 

[big kumara]

Other forms of nitrogen you could use: fresh vegetable clippings from the kitchen, corn meal, bone meal, blood meal, alfalfa meal, cottonseed meal, soybean meal, ground up beans or peas,

Bone meal has no (or just trace amounts of) nitrogen.

Corn meal has only trace amounts of nitrogen. Corn gluten meal (totally different product) is about 10% nitrogen.

The rest is good.

 

[Countrymouse]

Thanks, I'll give it some thought.

But for a half-acre field, that sure would have to be a LOT of coffee-drinkin'! (smile)

 

[plantman]

Bone meal has no (or just trace amounts of) nitrogen.

Corn meal has only trace amounts of nitrogen. Corn gluten meal (totally different product) is about 10% nitrogen.

The rest is good.

That's right bone meal is good source of phosphorous, great for tomatoes. Corn meal is great for killing fungus.

 

[Barry Natchitoches]

Bone meal has no (or just trace amounts of) nitrogen.

Corn meal has only trace amounts of nitrogen. Corn gluten meal (totally different product) is about 10% nitrogen.

The rest is good.

Good points, Kumara.


Some folks have access to this stuff, so I mention it, but you are right about them not having a whole lot of nitrogen compared to other organic sources.


Thanks for clarifying the point for folks.

 

[Barry Natchitoches]

Thanks, I'll give it some thought.

But for a half-acre field, that sure would have to be a LOT of coffee-drinkin'! (smile)

Half of an acre?


You would be best trying to plant a nitrogen producing cover crop on that much acreage. Something like clover, or hairy vetch, or rye, or buckwheat, etc.


I'm not sure what cover crops would work best for your area -- but your local agricultural extension agent can tell you.


Just don't let him brainwash you into believing that you need to add chemical to the soil to get it productive.


That is patently false, but that IS how the extension agents have all been trained -- and it is very rare to find an extension agent who will give you good advice on how to improve your soil without them trying to sell you on chemicals as an instant gratification form of nitrogen.

 

[WalknTrot]

Barry has a good point about planting alfalfa or clover. If you want to make a garden crop out of it, plant it with beans and peas. They will add nitrogen, too. But with a half-acre, you may be selling at the farmer's markets!

Have to say, had the BEST luck busting up and processing newly amended soil by planting squash and pumpkin. Plant them in hills mixed at least half with rotted manure to give the plants a good start. The roots grow so vigorously and relentlessly that they break up anything in their way. Downside is that they will require a lot of watering.

In a few years, you should have good soil.

 

[naturallysweet]

Naturallysweet I think you are the one who needs to quit complaining and read before you quote some one. You either have no clue what you read or never read it. Barry made himself very clear and was very helpful in his post. I do not see one complaint by him in the entire post, only very experienced advise which is greatly appreciated by most here at TB2K. He agrees with the system but added he does a similar but slightly different method with good results. Thanks Barry.



I included a copy of his post so you would not have to look for it.

I actually wasn't referring the the problem with bugs with wood products. But since THE MOVIE offered alternatives to wood products, then that shouldn't be a problem. Alternatives such as compost, straw, even stones were talked about.

THE MOVIE also pointed out that wood chips that compost on top of the soil don't rob the soil of nitrogen. He had soil samples done that proved this. Yet there are several postings about how wood robs the soil of nitrogen.

These are complaints to me. I really hate seeing pages of people who are talking negatively about something, who have done zero research. Then they post their ignorance for all to see by bashing something that they know nothing about. If this seems petty to you, deal with it. Or better yet, research before you post.

I click on these threads to learn. Learning about bug infestations in the wood is important. That was a valuable post, and allows the rest of us to learn from others failure and to suggest ways to solve the problem.

If I have never walked into a restaurant, then I wouldn't feel comfortable bashing the food. Why do so many people feel comfortable attacking something that they know nothing about?

(I make my own share of stupid posts, so I'm not putting down those who do. I just wish that more people would research before attacking something.)

 

[Countrymouse]

Half of an acre?


You would be best trying to plant a nitrogen producing cover crop on that much acreage. Something like clover, or hairy vetch, or rye, or buckwheat, etc.


I'm not sure what cover crops would work best for your area -- but your local agricultural extension agent can tell you.


Just don't let him brainwash you into believing that you need to add chemical to the soil to get it productive.


That is patently false, but that IS how the extension agents have all been trained -- and it is very rare to find an extension agent who will give you good advice on how to improve your soil without them trying to sell you on chemicals as an instant gratification form of nitrogen.

I remember my next-door neighbor (who had 5 acres and plowed it with a mule) would plant clover as a cover-crop each fall.

But--this is the last day of January--it's too late to do that now, isn't it? Especially with planting season coming in April at the latest here in Georgia?

 

[tm1439m]

I actually wasn't referring the the problem with bugs with wood products. But since THE MOVIE offered alternatives to wood products, then that shouldn't be a problem. Alternatives such as compost, straw, even stones were talked about.

THE MOVIE also pointed out that wood chips that compost on top of the soil don't rob the soil of nitrogen. He had soil samples done that proved this. Yet there are several postings about how wood robs the soil of nitrogen.

These are complaints to me. I really hate seeing pages of people who are talking negatively about something, who have done zero research. Then they post their ignorance for all to see by bashing something that they know nothing about. If this seems petty to you, deal with it. Or better yet, research before you post.

I click on these threads to learn. Learning about bug infestations in the wood is important. That was a valuable post, and allows the rest of us to learn from others failure and to suggest ways to solve the problem.

If I have never walked into a restaurant, then I wouldn't feel comfortable bashing the food. Why do so many people feel comfortable attacking something that they know nothing about?

(I make my own share of stupid posts, so I'm not putting down those who do. I just wish that more people would research before attacking something.)

Sounds like you feel the same as I do about others jumping to conclusions. I may have misunderstood the whole situation. Sorry if I offended you. I also make my share of stupid posts, haha. At the end of the day if we can all remain friends that would be the best thing. Lately we have had several challenges in our(my wife's family) lives and so sometimes emotions fly that may not even exist if not for the stress of life. What happens on any particular day can have a great effect on ones posts I would think.