WAR China Signals a Military Response to a Taiwan Visit by Pelosi
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phloydius
Veteran Member
I am expecting the majority of the consequences to be economic (dollar), cyberattack, and supply chain manipulation. I'm not expecting any major attacks on mainland Taiwan, unless China can goad Taiwan into firing the first shot. However -- how can China have military victories in the campaign to retake Taiwan without going all-in at the moment, but still save face? By taking some of the smaller islands. If they attack anything:
I'm expecting a small engagement to take one or more to the smaller islands controlled by Taiwan that are in the Taiwan Strait. Specifically (in order of likelihood) Wuqiu islands, Kinmen islands, or Matsu islands. Controlling these islands, although strategically minor, would be politically powerful. And although it would not increase the Chinese claim/control of the Taiwan Straits, it would weaken the Taiwanese claim on the straits.
I'm expecting a small engagement to take one or more to the smaller islands controlled by Taiwan that are in the Taiwan Strait. Specifically (in order of likelihood) Wuqiu islands, Kinmen islands, or Matsu islands. Controlling these islands, although strategically minor, would be politically powerful. And although it would not increase the Chinese claim/control of the Taiwan Straits, it would weaken the Taiwanese claim on the straits.
FYI
The Global Times (simplified Chinese: 环球时报; traditional Chinese: 環球時報; pinyin: Huánqiú Shíbào) is a daily tabloid newspaper under the auspices of the Chinese Communist Party's flagship newspaper, the People's Daily, commenting on international issues from a nationalistic perspective.[1][2][3][4] The publication has been labelled as "China's Fox News" by some scholars and writers for its propagandistic slant and the monetization of nationalism.[5][6][7]
Global Times - Wikipedia
northern watch
TB Fanatic
Yes, Global Times does give régime propaganda for the CCP as CNN, ABC, NBC, CBC does for the Biden regime.
Bubble Head
Has No Life - Lives on TB
We have been shipping sand to Taiwan from a pit in Colorado Springs for decades. Certain sands are used in oil well drilling. I am sure the sand that goes to Taiwan is for chips.
The problem for the ChiComs is the Taiwanese view this as a liberation opportunty for the Mainland.
The problem for the ChiComs is the Taiwanese view this as a liberation opportunty for the Mainland.
"Made you look"
Nancy Pelosi’s plane to Taiwan was the most-watched flight in the world
www.marketwatch.com
And now, Pelosi is the most popular politician in Washington, even the Republicans love her.
Nancy Pelosi’s plane to Taiwan was the most-watched flight in the world
Nancy Pelosi’s flight to Taiwan was the most watched plane in the world
Tracker Flightradar24 said more than 700,000 people were watching flight SPAR19 as it landed in Taiwan carrying the House Speaker
www.marketwatch.com
And now, Pelosi is the most popular politician in Washington, even the Republicans love her.
Bogey
“Where liberty dwells, there is my country.”
"Made you look"
Nancy Pelosi’s plane to Taiwan was the most-watched flight in the world
Nancy Pelosi’s flight to Taiwan was the most watched plane in the world
Tracker Flightradar24 said more than 700,000 people were watching flight SPAR19 as it landed in Taiwan carrying the House Speaker
And now, Pelosi is the most popular politician in Washington, even the Republicans love her.
FNP
mzkitty
I give up.
RAID PANIC
Huge fleet of 27 Chinese aircraft barrels into Taiwan airspace as island scrambles jets amid fears invasion is IMMINENT
- 10:25 ET, Aug 3 2022
- Updated: 10:42 ET, Aug 3 2022
Taipei's defence ministry said at least 27 Chinese aircraft crossed the Taiwan Strait median line - forcing the island to scramble jets amid invasion fears.
Fleet of 27 Chinese aircraft enter Taiwan airspace amid IMMINENT invasion fears
DOZENS of Chinese planes have barrelled into Taiwan’s defence zone as tensions hit boiling point between the countries. Taipei’s defence ministry said at least 27 Chinese aircraft cross…
www.the-sun.com
Zagdid
Veteran Member
Evidently there is already a global focus on supply and demand.
from March:
Sand pirates are driving global shortages in this vital construction material
By Maeve Campbell • Updated: 29/03/2022
A rapid increase in the demand for sand is driving shortages around the world. Sand is essential in the construction world, used to make concrete, glass and other vital building materials. But demand is set to soar by 45 per cent in the next four decades, according to a new study.
Leiden University in the Netherlands calculated that its use in the construction industry will jump from 3.2 billion tonnes a year in 2020 to 4.6 billion tonnes by 2060 - particularly in Africa and Asia.
Is ‘building sand’ any different to the sand you find on beaches?
Much of the world’s sand cannot be used in construction. Desert sand is too smooth to be used as a binding agent for concrete and sea sand is too high in chloride levels for most construction purposes.
So most of the sand used for building is extracted from rivers, lakes and shorelines - regions with high environmental and human impacts.
Sand mining on the Pearl River (Zhujiang) in China has already lowered water tables. Water tables are the underground sections between the soil surface and the area where the groundwater is. This has made it harder to extract drinking water for locals and has damaged bridges and embankments.
And to make things even worse, sand pirates are on the rise.
Who are the sand pirates?
Organised gangs exploiting the building sand industry have started to crop up around the world. Dozens of islands have disappeared in Indonesia as a result of the sand mining.
And this has devastating effects on the local environment.
“Sand overexploitation has commonly driven ecosystem destruction, shoreline erosion, biodiversity loss and food loss,” says lead author of the study, Xiaoyang Zhong.
“The social consequences can include reduced resilience to disasters and a rise in corruption and crime.”
Illegal sand mining has been reported in over 70 countries, often involving highly organised gangs. It threatens the livelihoods of hundreds of millions of people that live along the world’s rivers and floodplains, from Cambodia to California, the Middle East and China.
Researchers don’t know exactly how large the global supply is, but easily accessible sand around the world is disappearing at an alarming rate with deep ecosystem impacts. This is due to projected population and economic growth as well as an increasing number of buildings being made from concrete and glass. But unchecked consumption risks environmental damage and global shortages.
The planet is facing a ‘global sand crisis’ - should we be worried?
Unchecked sand consumption risks environmental damage and global shortages.
colonel holman
Veteran Member
"Made you look"
Nancy Pelosi’s plane to Taiwan was the most-watched flight in the world
Nancy Pelosi’s flight to Taiwan was the most watched plane in the world
Tracker Flightradar24 said more than 700,000 people were watching flight SPAR19 as it landed in Taiwan carrying the House Speaker
And now, Pelosi is the most popular politician in Washington, even the Republicans love her.
That stink will wear off quickly
At 4:15 this morning, DH quietly announces that the power is off. It doesn't happen often here, and the weather would not have been a factor. I opened my eyes and absorbed this information. No 
or 
or even 
but a little 
since I had a load of laundry to do and life was going to be interesting when I did get up. I 
and then asked DH to turn on the radio. Someone was blabbing about something that didn't include Chinese retribution. I then asked DH if there was a dial tone on the telephone. Yep. I rolled back over and finished catching zzzz's until the sun rose. Power was back on. Life is good. Enjoy the day everyone.
or or even but a little since I had a load of laundry to do and life was going to be interesting when I did get up. I and then asked DH to turn on the radio. Someone was blabbing about something that didn't include Chinese retribution. I then asked DH if there was a dial tone on the telephone. Yep. I rolled back over and finished catching zzzz's until the sun rose. Power was back on. Life is good. Enjoy the day everyone.
crossbowboy
Certifiable
Winnie the Xi knows exactly where it (pelosi) is at all times.
PLEASE demonstrate a targeted strike!
I'll start shopping at WalMart again, I promise...!
PLEASE demonstrate a targeted strike!
I'll start shopping at WalMart again, I promise...!
SSTemplar
Veteran Member
All of you do know that it is all a show. Pelosi is owned by the CCP just like the rest of the government. She was ordered to make that trip by the CCP. She has shown that she follows the orders of her master. Who is going next? The infiltration has been going on for years and your only hope is to NOT GIVE UP YOUR GUNS. The 2nd is all that stands between you and the Enemy.
Countrymouse
Country exile in the city
Countrymouse
Country exile in the city
THANK you, homecanner1! I didn't 'think' I was crazy in remembering that computer chips are essentially "built on sand"
Countrymouse
Country exile in the city
Thanks--that's helpful, too.
So I wonder why China would loudly declare "We're not selling you any more sand--nyah nyah nyah-nyah nyah!"---
when they sell them so LITTLE?
phloydius
Veteran Member
I did read somewhere, but can't remember where (it could have even been on TB2k) that not all sand is the same, and that the sand that is suitable for turning into silicon chips was a very tiny part of what is sold. Also for example, it is well know that much of the sand in the world can not be used for construction.
I would also assume that of the sand that Taiwan imports very little of it is used in making chips, and that most of it is used for things like construction.
somewherepress
Has No Life - Lives on TB
Pelosi changes status quo of Taiwan Straits with provocative visit, exposes US long-term miscalculation
By
Chen Qingqing
, Xu Yelu and Bai YunyiPublished: Aug 03, 2022 10:23 PM Updated: Aug 03, 2022 10:12 PM
US House Speaker Nancy Pelosi. Photo: AFP
When US House Speaker Nancy Pelosi landed in Taiwan island and touted the US' so-called commitment to the island, her extremely reckless and dangerous move immediately prompted a series of countermeasures from China, ranging from the military to diplomacy to economic sanctions. China's reaction to this serious intrusion on the country's sovereignty is widely considered as rational and reasonable, underscoring its firm strategic determination and sufficient patience to adhere to its own timetable in solving the Taiwan question. And such steady advancement of its own agenda gives Beijing the edge compared with the short-sighted Washington that will lose more points in the long-term geopolitical wrestling match.
Within less than 10 hours after five Chinese authorities including the Chinese Foreign Ministry, Standing Committee of the National People's Congress, Taiwan Affairs Office of the Communist Party of China Central Committee, Foreign Affairs Committee of the Chinese People's Political Consultative Conference National Committee and the Ministry of National Defense, used strong and robust language to condemn Pelosi's visit, the Chinese Foreign Ministry summoned US Ambassador to China Nicholas Burns to protest against Pelosi's visit and Chinese State Councilor and Foreign Minister Wang Yi issued a second strong statement condemning the US' intrusion on China's sovereignty.
Chinese embassies in countries like the UK, Japan and India all released similarly stern messages, and Qin Gang, Chinese envoy to the US, lodged solemn representations and strong protests in the first place with the US White House National Security Council and the Department of State.
Besides unprecedented diplomatic warnings, joint military exercises around the island by the Chinese People's Liberation Army (PLA) continued Wednesday with joint blockades, sea assaults, land attacks and air combat trainings with the participation of advanced weapons including J-20 stealth fighter jets and DF-17 hypersonic missiles after the drills started on Tuesday evening.
The exercises are unprecedented in that conventional missiles are expected to fly over the island of Taiwan for the first time, the PLA forces will enter the sea area within 12 nautical miles to the island, and that the so-called median line will no longer exist, experts said.
In addition, mainland customs announced on Wednesday morning the suspension of imports of citrus fruits and some frozen fish imports from the island. It also suspended exports of natural sand, of which Taiwan reportedly sources over 90 percent from the mainland.
During a press briefing of the Chinese Foreign Ministry on Wednesday, many reporters were concerned with what countermeasures the Chinese government would roll out and whether Beijing will sanction the island or Pelosi, and some followed up with questions such as how China will punish those who offended the country.
"From those questions, I believe that we all consider Pelosi's move as extremely wrong, so it has to be punished," Hua Chunying, spokesperson of the ministry, told the briefing.
"They will reap what they sowed. Relevant countermeasures will be forceful and effective, the US and secessionists in Taiwan will feel the impact," she said.
A special operations soldier assigned to the "Thunder" Commando of the PLA Air Force airborne troops jumps out of the aircraft during a parachuting training exercise in mid-summer, 2022. The exercise, lasting for several days, aims to hone the troops' combat capabilities in parachuting, long-range penetration and precision strike operations in the complex environment. (eng.chinamil.com.cn/Photo by Gu Xixi, Xu Jiawang and Guo Shuai)
Rational strategic choice
Until Pelosi arrived at Taipei's Songshan airport on Tuesday evening, the Chinese side had not adopted one of the possible ways speculated by public opinion in response to the provocation: the PLA could send warplanes and warships to escort her plane. However, some experts said that when it comes to military countermeasures, one factor to be considered is to avoid military conflicts or gunfire in adopting the countermeasure.
When it comes to sending warplanes to intercept Pelosi's plane, such close-range countermeasures can easily lead to a gunfire incident.
"There's no need to launch a war with the US now, as it's not in line with our national strategy," Jin Canrong, associate dean of the School of International Studies at the Renmin University of China, told the Global Times on Wednesday.
Jin believes that in face of Pelosi's visit, Chinese society showed an unprecedented consistent public opinion of "safeguarding the national reunification" and "opposing US provocation," which lays out a strong public opinion foundation for launching the process of reunification, therefore solving the Taiwan question will only be a matter of time in the next few years.
In response to the reported disappointment of the Chinese public for not stopping Pelosi's visit asked by Reuters, Hua from the Chinese Foreign Ministry said it is believed that Chinese people are patriotic in a rational way. "We are in full confidence of firmly safeguarding the country's sovereignty and territorial integrity," she said.
While some foreign observers also questioned whether Pelosi's visit crossed China's red line, Chinese experts affirmed that China's red line is not whether Pelosi visited the island or not but it's the one-China principle.
"Although Pelosi's visit to the island itself is a provocation to the principle, China is now taking subsequent countermeasures to reinforce and defend it in order to make this red line clearer to the US and US politicians. As result, they will bear the serious consequences and others won't dare to challenge it in a similar way," Xin Qiang, deputy director of the Center for American Studies at Fudan University, told the Global Times on Wednesday.
In the eyes of Chinese experts, the visit signals a further decline in the already weak political trust between China and the US, which also changed Washington's so-called status quo over the Taiwan Straits.
"In fact, the cross-Straits situation is entering a new phase now. The US made one extremely dangerous step forward, which means China will take two steps forward," Lü Xiang, a research fellow at the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences, told the Global Times on Wednesday.
The ongoing military drills around the island are a "rehearsal to solve the Taiwan question by force," he said, noting that from now on, the PLA will take tighter control over the airspace and surrounding sea areas of Taiwan to elevate China's security bottom-line, Lü said.
Pelosi's Taiwan visit is opening salvo in a war with China that the US will lose, Franz Gayl, a retired Marine Corps infantry officer and a former Pentagon employee, told the Global Times.
"Do members of the American public understand the horrors their government is about to inflict on their sons and daughters when they are sent off to fight a wholly inappropriate intervention that the US will lose?" Gayl asked.
The status quo has finally changed. Any illusion that the US is or ever was committed to the one-China policy has evaporated, he said.
"The arrival of the Speaker of the House of Representatives and second in line to serve as the Chief Executive in the sitting president's absence has ended decades of reunification efforts. From the perspective of the People's Republic of China, the Three Communiqués which set the conditions for US-PRC diplomatic relations are viewed by the US to be worthless pieces of paper," Galy said.
Long-term patience vs. shortsighted interests
US officials said Biden never told Pelosi not to go, The New York Times reported, but it contradicts the fact that Biden believed US military officials felt it was "not a good idea." When Pelosi arrived in Taiwan, some US-led Western media outlets considered it as a "victory."
However, in contrast to China's long-term strategic determination and patience, the US' biggest miscalculation is to undermine the overall China-US relations for the selfish interests of certain politicians, and when the US is playing the Taiwan card to create crisis scenarios across the Straits, China is steadily turning those scenarios into opportunities to achieve its goal of reunification. Such long-term rational strategic consideration also helped it tackle previous crisis such as the disputes over the Diaoyu Islands, the South China Sea and the riots in Hong Kong in 2019.
"Every time the US provokes China, the result has been shame on themselves," Hua said during the press briefing. The latest example was Pelosi instigating the black-clad riots in Hong Kong and touting the so-called "beautiful sight," which just accelerated the later transition of the city from chaos to stability, she noted.
When the trade war between China and the US started in 2018, many people saw that the US had taken the initiative to attack us and that there was still a gap between China and the US in terms of strength, Xin said, noting that those people thought that China did not have enough countermeasures and therefore "the US was certain to win."
"However, after some time, people realized this was not the case. The US itself has come to the conclusion that more than 90 percent of the cost of the trade war is borne by the American middle-classes," he said.
Pelosi's visit came amid intense global media scrutiny. The 82-year-old is fighting hard to gain more support as the midterm elections loom, and apparently, the US scored the first blow amid the current wrestling match with China by defying Beijing's warning and making her visit happen. However, in a long-term perspective, the US is putting its most important foreign relationship at risk, further weakening its political credibility but accelerating China's reunification, experts said.
"After this visit, China-US relations will surely go backward, and cross-Straits relations will get worse. No matter whether on domestic issues or foreign affairs, the US needs China's help on issues such as climate change, North Korean nuclear issue, the Ukraine crisis and its own inflation, but how much support can the US government gain from China after this?" Xin said.
Reunification is considered as a final step to achieve China's rejuvenation, and the Chinese government has its own pace in solving the Taiwan question, experts said. But Pelosi's reckless move largely helped this process, making the whole world closely observe China's irrefutable sovereignty over Taiwan and how the US constantly lost points in its international morality and image by hurting China-US relations.
It looks like the visit helped the US "score a win," just for now, but in the long run, it will lose more advantages, especially when China completes its rejuvenation, it will be a full-scale wrestling match between China and the US and the latter will see its hegemonic position in the world diminish, experts predicted.
It does but Taiwan imports less than 1% of the natural sand that it consumes from China. Where did you see that this sand is specific for the manufacture of chips?
Wyominglarry
Veteran Member
if china does attack Taiwan and things go bad then the US can put 2 destroyers into the Indian Ocean and stop all oil tankers from going to China from the Persian Gulf. Within a few months all the lights will be off in china.. We can also stop all food coming into china. we should put our carrier group outside of the first island chain to keep them away from chinese missiles. we can stop all inbound sea vessels from ever reaching china. lights out and starve them.
pauldingbabe
The Great Cat
So Egypt imports sand.
Anyone? No?
It's so ironic I refuse to type it out.
Anyone? No?
It's so ironic I refuse to type it out.
And China can sink a carrier and its entire support group with one tiny nuke. Major wars these days hinge on the willingness to use tactical nukes. Carriers are destined to follow battleships into the history books.
phloydius
Veteran Member
Did a little quick research.
Apparently the specific sand that is needed for semiconductors (and solar panels) is "high purity quartz sand" (HPQ) and they say there is no replacement for it that currently exists. It is a very small part of the sand that exists in the world, and has to be 99.99% pure (and void of metal contaminations).
Asia Pacific accounts for about 55%-59% of the production of high purity quartz sand.
China used to have to import HPQ sand to make the precursors for chips, but they do not have to as much any more. Jiangsu Pacific Quartz Co. Ltd. is the company in China that makes much of the HPQ sand they use. Of the four other major players, 1 is in Russia, 1 in the US, and 2 in Europe [head quartered].
www.globenewswire.com
www.globenewswire.com
What I have not found is where Taiwan buys it's HPQ sand from...
Apparently the specific sand that is needed for semiconductors (and solar panels) is "high purity quartz sand" (HPQ) and they say there is no replacement for it that currently exists. It is a very small part of the sand that exists in the world, and has to be 99.99% pure (and void of metal contaminations).
Asia Pacific accounts for about 55%-59% of the production of high purity quartz sand.
China used to have to import HPQ sand to make the precursors for chips, but they do not have to as much any more. Jiangsu Pacific Quartz Co. Ltd. is the company in China that makes much of the HPQ sand they use. Of the four other major players, 1 is in Russia, 1 in the US, and 2 in Europe [head quartered].
Global High Purity Quartz Sand Market To Document A 5.6% CAGR Till 2032; Applications Abound In Solar Energetics, Says Fact.MR
Europe to Emerge As an Opportunistic Market, Expected To Yield a Dollar Opportunity worth US$ 800 Million...
High Purity Quartz Market to reach US$ 1,331.0 Mn globally by 2027 – Coherent Market Insights
SEATTLE, May 29, 2020 (GLOBE NEWSWIRE) -- High purity quartz also referred to as Quartz, is consider as very important materials across electronic,...
What I have not found is where Taiwan buys it's HPQ sand from...
desert_fox
Threadkiller
Hence the submarine sale to Australia. Hard to nuke those puppies.
pauldingbabe
The Great Cat
Nevermind
Last edited:
It is not a sale. It is a transfer of knowledge and sales of some components. These subs are not going to be be active until the 2040s at a minimum. They are still in the initial design phases.
Might be easier than you think.
Could we have defeated the Soviet Union then? If we did then what? If we lost then what? If we had listened to McArthur would that have drawn the USSR deeper into the conflict? What would have happened if we had heeded the Chinese warning and stopped before they got involved? We can what if it to death.
Sammy55
Veteran Member
If her visit sparks off any kinds of problems, she won't be the most popular anymore. She will be deeply criticized for doing something so foolish."Made you look"
Nancy Pelosi’s plane to Taiwan was the most-watched flight in the world
Nancy Pelosi’s flight to Taiwan was the most watched plane in the world
Tracker Flightradar24 said more than 700,000 people were watching flight SPAR19 as it landed in Taiwan carrying the House Speaker
And now, Pelosi is the most popular politician in Washington, even the Republicans love her.
If someone - especially a bully - is making threats, you don't poke him so that he acts and carries out his threats. You either walk away and ignore him (while watching your back) or you stand up to him and TELL him so. If you know it'll turn into a physical fight, then you'd better make d*mn sure that you are ready to fight, have people at your back, and that your armies are ready. The US military told her NOT to do it. She did it anyway. I don't think she was "brave" or had cajones. She's got that "drunk fearlessness," which is NOT heroic. It is stupid and foolish.
I think she put our country at GREAT risk, as well as Taiwan and every other country that will now suffer the consequences of whatever China is going to do to retaliate. She is - to put it bluntly - just plain stupid!!! The sooner that old, broken down, egotistical, drunken bitchwitch is out of there, the better it will be for everyone.
Hawkgirl_70
Veteran Member
To-late
Membership Revoked
It’s not the first time o’nancy has poked the Chinese.
now even the republicans are fawning all over her. Fox News last night was fawning all over how great Nancy is.
the world has gone stark raving mad!
why no one has ever smacked her down, I’ll never know.
night driver
ESFP adrift in INTJ sea
Ma'am, not to be more of a pedant than usual, but, could you make sure that you have the correct term involved in this??
EITHER could work, though there are some pretty specific connotations involved in FEALTY that FIDELITY just ain't got. And of course vice versa.
DuckandCover
Proud Sheeple
Since she put our entire country at risk when she was told not to, why should the entire country suffer for her poor choice? I believe we should just send her back over there to be publicly caned or something. (joking...not literally, I don't suppose)
And the Chinese are going to sit idly by and do nothing? They have the firepower to destroy America in one day. If we kill a billion of them they still outnumber us. Not to even mention where are we going to get our products from?
Well I don't love her and I am disappointed in China. I thought they wanted to be friends with us with all of the promises they were making, but they didn't follow through."Made you look"
Nancy Pelosi’s plane to Taiwan was the most-watched flight in the world
Nancy Pelosi’s flight to Taiwan was the most watched plane in the world
Tracker Flightradar24 said more than 700,000 people were watching flight SPAR19 as it landed in Taiwan carrying the House Speaker
And now, Pelosi is the most popular politician in Washington, even the Republicans love her.