[AI] Avian Influenza 03.06.05

LMonty911

Deceased
NewsTarget.com printable article

Sunday, March 06, 2005 Bird flu virus could be used as bioweapon, say experts

Experts on virology warn that it would be a relatively simple task to genetically engineer the H5N1 virus (bird flu) into a viral agent that could spread widely without the need for human-animal contact. The use of such an agent as a deliberate infective weapon would be difficult to detect, because the H5N1 virus could mutate into a human-transmissible form without human intervention. If you enjoy this article, you may also be interested in an article entitled 'H5N1 avian strain expected to become next viral pandemic.'



Overview:


  • Since the WSN/33 situation in Korea provides some valuable insight into detection and reporting of bird or human flu, and wire services are carrying stories about biologic attacks by terrorists causing a contagious disease, it is worth reviewing some of the lessons learned from the swine WSN/33 infections.
  • If pandemic flu is the contagious disease of choice, selection of WSN/33 at this time would offer some advantages.
  • It is already transmissible from human-to-human, has been shown to be lethal in mice, has mutations in NA and PB2 that increase lethality, is widely available, and could be used without genetic manipulation.
  • As has been seen in Korea, introduction of the agent into pigs would allow it to spread almost undetected.
  • Most of the swine isolates have an avian PB2, but even the isolates that have half of a human PB2 have the 3' half of the human gene replaced with avian sequences.
  • Thus, the results from the Korean swine may indicate that starting with a very lethal virus has disadvantages in that a less lethal virus will emerge virtually undetected.
  • A second choice would be the H5N1 currently causing the high case fatality rate in Vietnam, Thailand, and Cambodia.
  • This version would be even more available, since it is excreted in large amounts by asymptomatic ducks, and is present in multiple organs in fatal infections.
  • Although human-to-human transmission of H5N1 is limited, infecting a few international travelers would generate worldwide panic if these passengers became ill outside of areas with indigenous H5N1.
  • Swapping a human receptor binding domain from a human flu virus into an H5 backbone would improve transmission efficiency and such an agent would quickly disseminate worldwide.
  • Since influenza evolves via recombination, implementation of an efficient laboratory strain might be eclipsed by a natural version, and there would be uncertainty over the origins of such an agent.

Source: http://www.recombinomics.com/News/02230501/Pandemic_Bioweapon.html

 

LMonty911

Deceased
Canada may not have to stock pandemic vaccine





Canadian Press

Updated: Sun. Mar. 6 2005 5:33 PM ET

TORONTO — In the next week or two, the World Health Organization will call on countries to consider stockpiling vaccine against the influenza strain known as H5N1, responsible for the deadly avian flu outbreak plaguing Southeast Asia.

But Canada may not need to consider that option, the head of the WHO's global influenza program suggested in an interview from Geneva.

The benefit to Canada of stockpiling H5N1 vaccine "may actually really be questionable," says Dr. Klaus Stohr, given the range of steps the country has already taken to prepare for the emergence of a flu pandemic.

Those steps include amassing stockpiles of two types of anti-viral drugs, a long-term contract for made-in-Canada pandemic flu vaccine and the recent go-ahead to make, test and license trial batches of H5N1 vaccine. That project could cut four months off manufacturing time if that virus erupts into a pandemic.

"I think that Canada, as far as I can see, has a very good mixed package of different complementary interventions at its disposal," Stohr says, adding that having that basket of measures already in place "changes the whole ball game" with respect to the question of stockpiling H5N1 vaccine.

"It's not a blanket recommendation that everybody should stockpile -- not at all," Stohr says of the pending policy paper, meant at least in part to provide financial incentives for flu vaccine makers to start crucial work on developing and testing H5N1 vaccines.

The United States has ordered two million doses for stockpiling; France and Italy are in negotiations to buy bulk orders as well.

Stohr's views echo those of Canada's chief public health officer. Dr. David Butler-Jones does not support the idea of stockpiling H5N1 vaccine, although he says he'd revisit the decision if evidence suggested it made sense.

Butler-Jones favours preparatory measures that protect against a wide array of pandemic possibilities -- not ones that would be useful against one subtype of influenza but useless against another.

He talks often about hedging his bets. From that vantage point, stockpiling H5N1 vaccine at this time makes no economic sense, he explains.

"Why wouldn't you put that money into more research and more development of infrastructure, rather than just having vaccines that will likely be useless at the end of the day?" Butler-Jones asks.

"The virus is constantly changing and to think that a vaccine that we produce today will be effective six months from now, the odds are pretty good that it will not."

Influenza viruses mutate ceaselessly, which is why one year's flu shot may offer no protection the next year -- or even limited protection in the year it was made, depending on how well strains it contains match viruses in circulation.



So an H5N1 vaccine made from a virus that was spreading in Vietnam in the spring of 2004 -- the source of vaccines currently being made -- might offer minimal protection if H5N1 sparks a pandemic in the spring of 2007.

And it would be of no use whatsoever if another of the many subtypes of influenza went on to trigger a pandemic instead, such as the H7N3 strain behind last year's British Columbia avian flu crisis.

Stohr says the WHO's suggestion that countries consider stockpiling H5N1 vaccine makes more sense for those that aren't laying in caches of anti-viral drugs, which will be the only real defence in the period from the start of a pandemic to when an effective vaccine becomes available.

"The anti-virals will work for every subtype. The anti-virals have a long shelf life," he notes, adding that stockpiled H5N1 vaccine "has severe disadvantages as well as some advantages."

Disadvantages include production and storage costs that might be wasted, a short shelf life and the agonizing moral dilemma facing those who must decide who would get limited supplies of stockpiled vaccine and who would not.

Among the advantages is the fact that if H5N1 starts a pandemic, stockpiled vaccine could be used as a "primer" in the vaccination process.

Experts assume it will take at least two doses of vaccine -- administered some time apart -- to develop a protective response to H5N1, a virus with which human immune systems have no experience.

The stockpiled vaccine, while not a specific match to a pandemic strain, might kick-start the immune response, some argue.

That would speed the entire process of immunizing Canadians, potentially freeing up the country's vaccine manufacturer, ID Biomedical, to be able to export vaccine sooner to parts of the world where no flu vaccine production takes place.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/1110148587914_5/?hub=Health
 

LMonty911

Deceased
Pandemic prep facts


Canadian Press


Sunday, March 06, 2005


(CP) - Some of the steps Canada has taken to prepare for an influenza pandemic:

Flu vaccine contract: Vaccine maker ID Biomedical has a 10-year, $323 million contract for made-in-Canada pandemic flu vaccine. Must be ready at all times to start producing enough vaccine to protect every Canadian.

Oseltamivir: By the end of March, Canada will have nearly 20 million pills of this crucial anti-viral drug (sold under the name Tamiflu) stockpiled. That's enough to treat two million sick Canadians. Additional purchases will happen over the next year, heading possibly to three million treatment courses.

Amantadine: The Public Health Agency of Canada plans to store large amounts of this cheap anti-viral drug. It is not effective against the current H5N1 virus, but may be against future versions. As well, it can be used against other strains of influenza. The agency is considering laying in up to 16 million pills, enough to treat 1.6 million people.

Trial batches of H5N1 vaccine: The recent federal budget contained roughly $20 million for a project to make, test and license an H5N1 vaccine. The work should provide answers to key questions about using such a vaccine effectively yet sparingly and chop production and licensing time by four months when a pandemic hits.

© The Canadian Press 2005

http://www.canada.com/health/story.html?id=f7de1042-d054-4936-84db-34500df10a00
 

LMonty911

Deceased
'Bird flu' drugs ready for pandemic


Millions of doses of drugs to ward off a flu pandemic are to be stockpiled, the Government has announced.

Ministers say that without the antiviral treatment an outbreak could kill as many as 50,000 people.

Experts believe a pandemic will probably emerge if Avian influenza - known as bird flu - mutates with human flu, creating a highly infectious new virus.

The UK Influenza Pandemic Contingency Plan could see concerts and football matches banned and travel restricted to stop the virus spreading.

The Department of Health is to buy in 14.6m courses of the antiviral drug Tamiflu, which reduces the symptoms and the risk of a carrier passing on the virus.

It will be enough for a quarter of the population - the World Health Organisation's recommended level.

Several countries, including Canada, the US and Australia, have already started building up reserves of the drugs.

Chief Medical Officer Sir Liam Donaldson said the impact of a pandemic would be 'severe' with disruption to everyday life.

"The steps we are setting out today will help us to reduce the disease's impact on our population."

There were three flu pandemics during the 20th century. The worst one in 1918 killed up to 50 million people, including more than 200,000 in the UK.

The effect of the influenza epidemic was so severe that the average life span in the USA decreased by 10 years.

The Asian flu outbreak in 1957 and Hong Kong pandemic 11 years later both killed one million people each.

So-called 'seasonal' - or regular - flu kills 12,000 people in the UK each year.
http://webnewswire.com/article434725.html
 

LMonty911

Deceased
BIRD FLU OUTBREAK

Global Threat
Experts say deadly virus presents grave risk if we don't 'get our act together'


BY BRYN NELSON
http://www.nynewsday.com/news/healt...ar06,0,4186195.story?coll=ny-health-headlines
STAFF WRITER

March 6, 2005

The disaster could begin with little more than an infected duck, a promiscuous virus and a well-timed sneeze.

Where it would end remains less certain, but the growing alarm over a disease known as avian influenza owes much to the peculiar properties of a virus quickly expanding its domain far beyond birds.

On its surface, each strain of influenza virus is stippled with different combinations of two main proteins, abbreviated H and N.

Some of these combinations are seen only in wild birds or poultry. Many produce only mild symptoms. But the H5N1 strain that has killed at least 46 people within the past 14 months and forced the slaughter of more than 140 million birds hadn't previously been seen in humans for at least a century, meaning that no one alive today is immune.

It is, scientists say, one of the worst combinations of all.

"I would say in my lifetime, this is the most threatening time I've ever seen, and I've spent my lifetime studying the flu," said Robert Webster, head of virology at St. Jude Children's Research Hospital in Memphis.

Webster, an avian influenza expert who has long warned of the potential for a worldwide flu epidemic, or pandemic, now finds himself surrounded by a growing chorus of agreement.

Dr. Shigeru Omi, the World Health Organization's Western Pacific regional director, sounded one of the latest alarms at a conference last month in Ho Chi Minh City, Vietnam, to assess the threat of a viral disease commonly called the bird flu.

"We at WHO believe that the world is now in the gravest possible danger of a pandemic," Omi told attendees, echoing comments earlier in the week by Dr. Julie Gerberding, director of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. Speaking in Washington, D.C., at the American Association for the Advancement of Science's annual conference, Gerberding characterized the virus as "the most important threat that we are facing right now."

She and other CDC officials later sought to downplay suggestions that the world is on the brink of a pandemic, stressing that no evidence has emerged to suggest that the H5N1 strain has achieved the ability to spread easily from person to person - a vital step in its transformation into a swift and proficient killer.

In January, the WHO released a 62-page report on the threat, commending researchers, health officials and governments for improving preparations for such an eventuality.

But the report and independent experts suggest there is still ample reason to be worried about a disease that once did little more than ruffle a few feathers in domestic chickens.

"I'm very concerned, because the virus is endemic in a large part of Asia and has the possibility of either mutating or recombining, re-assorting with human influenza viruses," said Dr. Thijs Kuiken, a veterinary pathologist at the Erasmus Medical Center in Rotterdam, the Netherlands.

The longer the H5N1 virus remains in circulation, health officials say, the graver the risk for catastrophe. In rural parts of Asia, poultry and other livestock are often housed together on land next to homes, meaning that human and avian flu strains could join forces to create a potent global assassin.

Most researchers have been loath to make death toll predictions for a potential H5N1 pandemic, citing the sheer unpredictability of the virus. But estimates have ranged from "best-case scenarios" of 2 million to 7.4 million, to "considerably worse" scenarios surpassing the estimated 1918-1919 pandemic toll of 40 million from "Spanish flu."

For a flu outbreak to become a pandemic, three conditions must be met:

A type A virus strain must arise with H and N proteins to which few, if any, people have acquired immunity.

Second, the virus must infect humans and be able to replicate easily - the process that leads to a severe disease.

And third, the virus must be easily spread from person to person in prolonged chains of casual contact.

The H5N1 strain already has achieved the first two requirements. When, or whether, it will meet the third remains anyone's guess, but Webster said the world needs to "get our act together" - and soon.

"It's going to happen sooner or later, probably sooner rather than later," he said. "The virus is making these changes, it's going from being pathogenic in domestic, terrestrial poultry to becoming pathogenic in waterfowl, and it's spread to tigers and domestic cats." The latter two animals were previously thought to be resistant to the virus, but research has shown that they too can fall seriously ill. Webster's group discovered they could experimentally infect ferrets with the virus as well, rapidly causing diarrhea, hind leg paralysis and death.

"Everything it does is rather frightening," he said.

Until 1997, only two people had ever fallen ill from the bird flu. In that year, however, a formerly mild version of the H5N1 strain mysteriously emerged in Hong Kong as a deadly disease - for both chickens and humans. Within a matter of weeks, 18 people had fallen ill.

Six of them died.

A slaughter of the city's 1.5 million birds over three days has been credited with averting a potential human health disaster.

But the virus didn't go away.

Beginning in late 2003, a more deadly version again washed over Asia, leading to poultry outbreaks in eight countries and a combined culling of at least 140 million birds in a desperate effort to control the outbreak.

But unlike in Hong Kong, those efforts may have come too late. Health officials are increasingly convinced that the virus is entrenched in poultry populations scattered throughout Thailand and Vietnam.

Over the past 14 months, successive waves of the H5N1 strain have unofficially infected 66 people, all but one in Vietnam or Thailand. So far, 46 of them have died, for a mortality rate of 70 percent. But recent reports have raised concerns that health officials may be missing even more cases.

Although no evidence of efficient person-to-person spread has emerged, experts believe some patients may have fallen ill not from contacting infected poultry but from prolonged exposure to an infected relative.

And there's something else: Last year, the average age of bird flu patients in Thailand was 20. In Vietnam, it was 15.

Close contact between poultry and children or young adults may be one explanation. But doctors also are seeing an exaggerated immune response in some cases - meaning a robust immune system may go overboard, worsening the illness.

"Why are some people susceptible? There has to be a genetic basis for it, but we don't have any knowledge of that yet," Webster said.

Last summer, Kuiken and other scientists at the Erasmus Medical Center made another surprising discovery. By infecting domestic cats with the H5N1 strain, they induced severe viral pneumonia in many of cats, as well as limited cat-to-cat spread of the virus.

Studies confirmed that leopards and tigers in a Thai zoo and reserve also had fallen ill after eating infected chicken carcasses - an indication the virus "produces disease in a greater range of species" than previous strains, Kuiken said.

Yet another species has been fingered as a "silent" viral reservoir: ducks.

"The ducks, the ducks, the ducks are the key to the whole damned thing," Webster agreed. Ducks, which are "everywhere in the south of Vietnam,"he said, have been shown to excrete large amounts of the virus through their feces, compounding the risk to humans who come into contact with it. Unlike chickens, however, most ducks have been symptom-free, meaning they could pass on the infection undetected.

If there is hope for dealing with the gathering threat, Webster said it may come from the place where it all began. Last year, he said, "there was no bird flu in Hong Kong, and it was all around it. They've cleaned up their act."

Domestic chickens are now vaccinated and twice a month the markets close for a thorough scrubbing. Webster said the efforts are a model for other nations.

"And they have had no bird flu, but unfortunately, the world hasn't shouted about that fact," he said.

Elsewhere, contingency plans are gathering steam. In the United States, health officials are scrambling to test an experimental vaccine against the H5N1 strain, based on an inactivated version of the virus from a Vietnamese patient. Clinical trials beginning this month will involve 4,000 volunteers.

But even if a vaccine proves safe and effective, how easily can the vaccine industry meet a global demand that could exceed hundreds of millions or billions of doses?

In the event of U.S. shortages, officials say an ethics panel to the CDC may determine who would receive vaccines first.

Other tests by the CDC have shown that the H5N1 strain is resistant to two of the four drugs cited as potential prophylactic or treatment options - leaving the less readily available and more expensive compounds oseltamivir and zanamivir (marketed as Tamiflu and Relenza, respectively) as the best options in a national stockpile.

So far, the United States has stockpiled enough oseltamivir for about 2.3 million people.

For now, experts say, the best approach may be to prepare for a reality that many foresee in the near future. In a post-9/11 world, the idea of imminent danger and pre-emptive action is finding a more receptive audience.

At a bio-security conference earlier this week in Lyon, France, Webster said he told attendees: "The greatest bio-terrorist at the moment is Mother Nature brewing something."

No one, he said, disagreed.

The avian flu

In 1997, a strain of bird flu known as H5N1 emerged in Hong Kong, killing chickens-and six humans. In the past year, the same viral strain has infected humans and poultry alike across Southeast Asia, raising fears of a global flu epidemic, or pandemic, that could kill millions.

WHAT A PANDEMIC REQUIRES:

1. A virus emerges to which the general population has little or no immunity.

2. The virus can replicate in humans and cause serious illness.

3. The virus can be easily spread among humans.

The current avian strain has met the first two criteria.

A few humans are believed to have spread it to other humans, but there is no evidence that the virus is easily spread.

MANY POSSIBILITIES

Flu viruses get their names from two sets of protein spikes that jut from the surface of the virus - the hemagglutinin, or H, spike and the neuraminidase, or N, spike.

There are 15 H subtypes, designated H1 to H15, and nine N subtypes, designated N1 to N9. The current avian flu strain is made up of H5 and N1; hence, the flu's name is H5N1. The unpredictability of how the two protein spikes will match up is why creating a vaccine causes headaches for health officials.

PANDEMICS AND ANIMALS

Flu pandemics often begin in Asia because many people tend to be in close contact with their food sources, meaning the virus is more easily transmitted. Humans can get the flu from animals by eating raw meat, handling the animals or coming into contact with their feces.

1918-19

The "Spanish flu'' pandemic killed 40 million people or more worldwide, including more than 650,000 Americans. The origins of the strain, known as H1N1, remain hotly debated.

1957

The "Asian flu'' pandemic killed an estimated 2 million people or more globally and about 70,000 in the United States. That milder strain, H2N2, is thought to be the product of a recombination between separate human and avian flu strains.

1968

The "Hong Kong flu'' pandemic killed about 1 million people worldwide and 34,000 in the United States. The strain, H3N2, was again likely formed through a recombination of human and avian strains.

The next one?

The avian flu strain currently in Asia, H5N1, is known to have infected such animals as chickens, ducks, hawks and other wild birds, and tigers and leopards. In experiments, scientists have successfully infected cats and ferrets. Most infected ducks have shown no symptoms, meaning they could spread the virus unbeknownst to human observers.

THE FLU VIRUS

NA - Neuraminidase

HA - Hemagglutinin
Copyright © 2005, Newsday, Inc.
 

LMonty911

Deceased
print close
Sun 6 Mar 2005

Bird flu would reach Scotland 'within weeks'

RICHARD GRAY
rgray@scotlandonsunday.com


SCOTLAND will be hit by a deadly strain of the bird flu virus within three weeks of a pandemic starting in Asia, Scotland’s top doctor has warned.

Dr Mac Armstrong, the Scottish Executive’s chief medical officer, also warned that more than a third of the country’s workforce would be knocked out by the disease.

Speaking after issuing an unprecedented public health warning earlier this week, he described a flu pandemic as one of the biggest threats facing Scotland.

The World Health Organisation fears the avian flu virus H5N1, which has been wreaking havoc in Asia, could mutate into a deadly human form of the virus. Experts estimate that up to 70,000 people could die in Scotland if the resulting pandemic reached the UK.

Emergency plans have been drawn up in Scotland based on contingency measures that would also be used in the event of a terrorist attack.

The Executive is stockpiling 1.2 million doses of an anti-viral drug known as Tamiflu - enough to treat a quarter of the population. They hope the drug could help reduce the death toll by as much as 50% until a vaccine is developed.

But Armstrong warned it would take two years to build up full stocks of the drug. He said: "We have placed a large contract ahead of everyone else in the world, but the suppliers obviously have a capacity problem. With such a large order it will take a while to build up the stock completely.

"If we are unlucky and get a pandemic over the next two years then we will have to decide which people need it the most and give it to them over others."

Avian flu, which spreads from birds to humans, has already killed 40 people in Asia since 2003. The World Health Organisation last week warned that a new strain of bird flu could mix with a human influenza virus, enabling it to be transmitted between humans, sparking a pandemic.

Doctors in Vietnam are currently investigating the first possible human-to-human case of transmission of the bird flu virus.

Armstrong’s warning came as a leading microbiologist said poultry feathers being imported from China could carry the bird flu virus.

A report on BBC Radio 4’s Farming Today programme said that while poultry meat from the country has been banned, duck, chicken and turkey feathers - some of which are used in making pillows - were still being imported.

Professor Hugh Pennington told the programme: "I think there is a case for looking very seriously at feather imports.

The risk is a real one that we might be importing the avian flu virus along with the feathers."



This article:

http://news.scotsman.com/health.cfm?id=246322005

Bird flu:

http://news.scotsman.com/topics.cfm?tid=161

Websites:

Dept of Health - Bird Flu Q&A
http://www.dh.gov.uk/AboutUs/HeadsO...MOArticle/fs/en?CONTENT_ID=4072788&chk=VF8cGJ

WHO - Bird Flu fact sheet
http://www.who.int/csr/don/2004_01_15/en/
 

jed turtle

a brother in the Lord
very interesting thread Monty. thanks for posting it. is there anyone else, though, that has to scroll back and forth to read it because it is wider than my screen?
 

LMonty911

Deceased
sorry jed, it's coming thru normal on mine, and i dont have a big monitor.
not sure why thats happening.

I'll try to do this on the days that i can, and anyone is welcome to participate. start a daily thread, add articles you find, or commentary, personal or copied in. I recommend we use the [AI] topic designation-avian Influenza- so its easy to find the threads later in a search. If things quiet down, when flu season is over for the year, we can make it a weekly thread, until theres no new news.

I'm hoping that presenting much of the news in this format will be of help to our researchers and commentators like CSue, and the docs and medical folks. Save them time searching. In addition, it will allow the rest of us to easily peruse the current events in FluLand and decide on the risk factor for ourselves, and help give us a jump on prep levels.

This concept seemed to work well for the SARS situation, and I personally found it very useful and much easier to read then jumpinmg all over the place.suggestions, ideas? Feel free to post them or PM me.
 

Freeholdfarm

Inactive
There seems to be a lot of panic and preps over a virus that so far as we are being told is still confined to one area of the world, and hasn't really made all that many people sick (so far as we are being told). Makes me wonder if there is anything they *aren't* telling us?


Kathleen
 

Hansa44

Justine Case
Freeholdfarm said:
There seems to be a lot of panic and preps over a virus that so far as we are being told is still confined to one area of the world, and hasn't really made all that many people sick (so far as we are being told). Makes me wonder if there is anything they *aren't* telling us?


Kathleen


Although if you think about it, the same thing happened with swine flu, y2k, terrorists attacks, etc., etc.

The best thing people can do is always be prepared for emergencies. Then you won't be one of those crying out for the gov. to save you.
 

fruit loop

Inactive
I wish WHO would shut up

"Bird Flu" is not new. Mutations from flu with animals is NOT a new thing. It happens all the time. Birds, pigs and horses can get the flu.

Most flu strains DO have non-human elements....this is not the first time that flu has jumped from people to animals to people again, although you wouldn't know it from those imbeciles spreading gloom and doom on the news. This is VERY irresponsible reporting, because.....

The 1968 Hong Kong flu had three bird strains in its composition.

The "danger" lies in the fact that each time the flu jumps to a different organism, it changes its composition somewhat, and the potential for a mutated "superbug" arises.

The infamous 1918 epidemic happened because the flu mutated after it jumped from people to waterfowl and back

This hype about bird flu infuriates me, because the news media leads people to believe that this is a new thing and something to be terrified about. It's not. Happens all the time with flu. All this does is terrify people needlessly.

The hype about the 1918 eppy also infuriates me because to hear some people talk, everybody who got that flu dropped dead on the spot. People DID survive. Yeah, yeah, yeah, there was a complication with lung hemorrhages with that flu strain...but not EVERYBODY got that, either, leading me to believe it was a nasty secondary infection.

FLU DOES NOT KILL. Death is caused by secondary infections such as pneumonia.

Back in 1918:
1. People often lived in cramped, filthy living conditions. Lots of them already had tuberculosis and other disease, or were poorly nourished.

2. They had aspirin (and how many kids with that flu really died of Reyes Syndrome?) but no other major fever reducing drugs

3. Penicillin wasn't around yet to treat secondary infections

Don't panic over flu. You won't die, you'll just wish you did. Treat the symptoms, and save your fear for stuff like Ebola

All this hype of "Bird flu!!!!" does is frighten people needlessly.

Canada Sue, feel free to jump in here
 

LMonty911

Deceased
fruit loop-

For most "human" run-of-the-mill, usual annual influenzas, secondary infections are the most common killer. But even with all the bells and whistles of an intensive care unit avialable, the regular flu manges to make the top 10 lest for mortality in almost all countries that do surveillance.

I'd really like it if what you are saying is true, but with this particular bug, its not.

Review of the literature (try PubMed) indicates that most H5N1 mortality is attributed to cytokine storm, and/or respiratory distress syndrome followed by respiratory failure secondary to the viral pneumonia from the flu itself. NOT secondary infections, bacterial stuff we have antibiotics to treat.

Now, if Sue is right, and i agree with her; theres two posiblities:
1) that we are only seeing reports on the "tip of the iceberg" cases- the sickest, and more infections are going undignosed becaus ethe illness they caused was minor. That might mean that not all patietns that contract the bug (if thats happening) respond that way, and only some get the more severe form of the illness. That would be good, since it means it actually has a lower death rate-less mortality. That would be BAD because it means theres a lot more of it out in the wild than we know, and the chances of it changing into a more easily transmitted form is exponentially higher, thus increasing our chances of a pandemic. WIthout more viral studies done in the communities where the bad cases are coming from, we have no way of knowing if this possibility is true or not, or if the assumptions hold up. But if we find that theres many more people infected then we now know, we can revise our mortality rate downwards from a ratehr terrifying rate of 70+%. Personally, I'm keeping my fingers crossed for lower mortality, since i think its just a matter of time before it jumps species and a pandemic starts. Next year, the year after, maybe- my guess is that its coming.

2) when it jumps, it may do so by sharing genes with a different type of f;lu that easily infects humans. When that new h5N1 is created, it may be-and apparently does often happen in many previous studied flu jumps- that as it picks up the genes that helps it tranmit easily (by causing infections in humans, it has to unlock the doors that usually keep human cells closed to invaders -"cleave" cells and enter.) it will hopefully also pick up genes that result in lower mortality, making it less likely to cause those cytokine storms and viral pneumonia.

If either of those happen, then indeed just the secondaries may be the major cause of fatalities. One can hope.

If it doesnt, and/or retains its ability to affect other body systems- this pandemic may in fact end up with very similar characteristics to the 1918 one. (one thing the current H5N1 seems to do, is infect and invade body tissues other than the lungs. thats the cause of the diarrhea, and neurological problems).

theres a lot we dont know, even though we specualte on it- if it does gain the ability to easily transmit human to human (and that why the news of case clusters would be so critical, it may indicate that particular strain has done so) we wont know the attack rate, or oterh important info such as actual mortality and morbidity until long after this thing is over. Most pandemics, IIRC (Sue, correct me here if I'm wrong, please) any particular case can infect 3-4 other people. Will human H5N1 do that? Unknown, and important -the speed of travel of a pandemic and percentage of population affected may well depend on that. SARS rate was much lower, and quarantine worked. A higher rate may result in much worse outcome.

If this flu affects even a much lower rate of the population that 1918, and even with a lower final mortality rate, the social dispruption itself may be significant in terms of mortality and morbidity from other causes.

I really dont feel theres any fear mongering going on- in fact, its attitudes that blow it off that scare me. This is a very real, and very close threat. If it happens, the medical system wil be completely overwhelmed, and even if the bug evolves ot a milder form, secondaries may end up just as fatal in mid pandemic now as they were in 1918/19-for lack of availability of the treatments we take for granted.
 

fruit loop

Inactive
Flu epidemics

Don't think I don't take flu seriously. I'm in the high risk category - I have chronic bronchitis with mild emphysema (I don't smoke, never have, so save the lecture) and I ALWAYS get a secondary infection with flu.

That said....

The worst thing with flu will be the disruption. Schools will probably close and it will be hard to maintain some services due to the number of people out sick.

The major danger is to elderly and people with compromised immune systems. These are the folks who will be most at risk.

One reason they will be at risk, though, is because of STUPID PEOPLE.

The flu, as said, does not kill. Most people will recover fairly quickly if they act smart and treat their symptoms.

Unfortunately, we have large numbers of stupid people, and it is they who will bog down the health care system....

I see it all the time. Parents come in whining to their doctor "baby pumpkin has a fever!" They don't get that the doc cannot treat the flu since it's a virus. All they really need to do is give Baby Pumpkin some baby tylenol and make him as comfortable as possible, but no........

No, they call the doc whining and take up an appointment that's really needed by a person with a secondary infection.

I disagree that someone will use flu as a bioweapon. Viruses make terrible weapons because there is NO way to control who will get it and who will not. The person who releases a virus will eventually find it coming back to haunt them.

Most likely a terrorist will use a poison or a bacterial agent as a bioweapon, not a virus. Distribution of those can be controlled. And I hope their punishment is that they are also infected and have to suffer when the law finally catches up with them!

That said....

Prep for flu as you would any other illness, and ride it out. You will really not be affected all that much.

Stock meds to treat symptoms....fever reducers, cough suppressants, nasal decongestants.

A vaporizer or humidifier

Plenty of clean linens.....you won't feel like doing wash.

Easy to prepare foods, like canned soups and bouillon. Canned juices. You wont' feel like cooking.

Vitamins, high protein snacks for afterwards, to help build yourself back up

BLEACH. Chlorine bleach kills most germs. I remember in the days before dishwashers (which sterilize most dishes with the hot water), the doc always told mom to put bleach in the dishwater if one of us had strep, to avoid spreading it. I still add a little bleach to my dishwasher just in case.

After everyone recovers, air the house out thoroughly and clean every possible surface with the bleach or lysol. Wash linens in hot water.

This is all you need to do unless you get a secondary infection, in which case you WILL need an antibiotic.

My doc knows I'm prone to bronchitis, so he lets me have a relief script for Cipro in case I get sick over a weekend or holiday. It's worth asking for. I also stock Cipro from Mexico because it's cheaper. Being chronically ill, I recognize my symptoms and can medicate myself.

Hope this helps.

most folks will recover from the flu. You won't die. You'll just wish you would.
 
fruit loop said:
Don't think I don't take flu seriously. I'm in the high risk category - I have chronic bronchitis with mild emphysema (I don't smoke, never have, so save the lecture) and I ALWAYS get a secondary infection with flu.

That said....

The worst thing with flu will be the disruption. Schools will probably close and it will be hard to maintain some services due to the number of people out sick.

The major danger is to elderly and people with compromised immune systems. These are the folks who will be most at risk.

One reason they will be at risk, though, is because of STUPID PEOPLE.

The flu, as said, does not kill. Most people will recover fairly quickly if they act smart and treat their symptoms.

Unfortunately, we have large numbers of stupid people, and it is they who will bog down the health care system....

I see it all the time. Parents come in whining to their doctor "baby pumpkin has a fever!" They don't get that the doc cannot treat the flu since it's a virus. All they really need to do is give Baby Pumpkin some baby tylenol and make him as comfortable as possible, but no........

No, they call the doc whining and take up an appointment that's really needed by a person with a secondary infection.

I disagree that someone will use flu as a bioweapon. Viruses make terrible weapons because there is NO way to control who will get it and who will not. The person who releases a virus will eventually find it coming back to haunt them.

Most likely a terrorist will use a poison or a bacterial agent as a bioweapon, not a virus. Distribution of those can be controlled. And I hope their punishment is that they are also infected and have to suffer when the law finally catches up with them!

That said....

Prep for flu as you would any other illness, and ride it out. You will really not be affected all that much.

Stock meds to treat symptoms....fever reducers, cough suppressants, nasal decongestants.

A vaporizer or humidifier

Plenty of clean linens.....you won't feel like doing wash.

Easy to prepare foods, like canned soups and bouillon. Canned juices. You wont' feel like cooking.

Vitamins, high protein snacks for afterwards, to help build yourself back up

BLEACH. Chlorine bleach kills most germs. I remember in the days before dishwashers (which sterilize most dishes with the hot water), the doc always told mom to put bleach in the dishwater if one of us had strep, to avoid spreading it. I still add a little bleach to my dishwasher just in case.

After everyone recovers, air the house out thoroughly and clean every possible surface with the bleach or lysol. Wash linens in hot water.

This is all you need to do unless you get a secondary infection, in which case you WILL need an antibiotic.

My doc knows I'm prone to bronchitis, so he lets me have a relief script for Cipro in case I get sick over a weekend or holiday. It's worth asking for. I also stock Cipro from Mexico because it's cheaper. Being chronically ill, I recognize my symptoms and can medicate myself.

Hope this helps.

most folks will recover from the flu. You won't die. You'll just wish you would.


Fruit Loop;

You are both doing yourself (and others) a dis-service in trying ti *minimize* the potential for H5N1 to be a "Slate Wiper"....

I have personally followed (and conversed with person(s) involved [professionally] in watching the bug as it developes). And this one may well Morph into something truely frightening.

So far - You have only come across (with your rants) as a person badly frightened! And you are trying to *Make Believe* that there is no Bugger hiding under the bed....

Your rants shouldn't bother me - but in a way they do. Because there is a possibility that you just might convince some one to ignor H5N1 as being potentially very dangerous, even deadly.

While you have the distint right to ignor; even fantisize "That all is well; and there aint no danger". Unless you have Medical references (which you have not alluded to). Your opinion is like the "Other thing" we all have....

Lady LMonty911, please continue your much appreacated efforts. If what I am understanding (of what I am reading; as well as hearing). This *baby* could blow up in our faces with-in the next 10 months.

Being a person who only is interested in *Hard News* I do very much appreacate your (Lady Canadasue's and Lady Pepper's) efforts.

Shakey
 

fruit loop

Inactive
No, Shakey, I am NOT frightened by this

I think other people are trying to put a monster under the bed where there isn't one.

Flu is highly contagious and there's not much that can be done to stop the spread. All you can do is try to be ready if it arrives. Stock the stuff I suggested - meds to treat the symptoms.

I have taken Tamiflu before and had no discernible response, so I don't put much faith in anti-viral drugs for flu, or at least for me.

Spreading gloom and doom is not going to help. Furthermore, I don't think the death tolls from even a major pandemic are going to be as high as some estimates. 50-70% percent? Come on. It wasn't that high a death toll in that horrible awful Spanish Flu epidemic everybody howls about.

Prep for flu, sure.

Note that in the countries where this H5 flu is breaking out, the health care system and standard of living is generally lower. I think we'll do much better in the U.S.

P.S. My posts about flu are nowhere near approaching a "rant." You'll see me rant someday, I'm sure, and when I do, you will know it!
 
fruit loop said:
I think other people are trying to put a monster under the bed where there isn't one.

Flu is highly contagious and there's not much that can be done to stop the spread. All you can do is try to be ready if it arrives. Stock the stuff I suggested - meds to treat the symptoms.

<b>It can be deadly in and of it's self as well</b>

I have taken Tamiflu before and had no discernible response, so I don't put much faith in anti-viral drugs for flu, or at least for me.

<b>Tamiflu won't touch this baby - so far</b>

Spreading gloom and doom is not going to help.

<b>It is called both being aware of the events; and tracking it's progress</b>

Furthermore, I don't think the death tolls from even a major pandemic are going to be as high as some estimates. 50-70% percent?

<b>10% would destroy life as we know it - and the first responders; the movers and shakers of the society would be the ones hit the hardest</b>

Come on. It wasn't that high a death toll in that horrible awful Spanish Flu epidemic everybody howls about.

<b>1918 isn't 2005</B>


Prep for flu, sure.

<b>Glad to see that you do reconize that there just might be a need to</B>


Note that in the countries where this H5 flu is breaking out, the health care system and standard of living is generally lower. I think we'll do much better in the U.S.

<b>The US is no longer the self sustaining enity we once where either (or in other words, we *need* a lot of those other countries in order to have an economy)</B>
P.S. My posts about flu are nowhere near approaching a "rant." You'll see me rant someday, I'm sure, and when I do, you will know it!

<b>It wasn't a rant - yur a doin a good job at resembling one</B>

In conclusion old Bud. I am a Hard news person - I am interested only in those events which may affect/destroy/or alter our way of life. H5N1 qualifys at being advanced to the top of the lists of "Things that go *bump* in the night"...
 

fruit loop

Inactive
It's just another thing to prep for, Shakey

Epidemics are like any other disaster: something you can't do anything about, so find a way to survive it.

Again, I think flu is a mild disaster. Most people will recover.

Prep for flu as you would for anything else. In fact, illnesses ARE something that should be prepped.

Stock quick but nutritious, easy to prepare foods. You will need to keep up your strength but won't have much energy to cook. Bouillons, canned soups and stew, microwaveable Ravioli, canned pudding, etc. Suggest canned juices rather than frozen because they don't have to be mixed up and keep longer on the shelf.

Disinfectants and chlorine bleach. I always put a little bleach in my dishwasher to kill any critters that may be lurking, although the average dishwasher is hot enough to sterilize dishes.

Fever-reducing drugs such as tylenol, aspirin, and aleve. I like Aleve because it also helps the muscle cramps you get with flu

Theraflu - great stuff, but stock some honey to sweeten it because it tastes horrid

Cough syrup

OTC cold meds - remember that with flu, you treat the symptoms

Vaporizer or humidifier

Extra blankets

Vitamins

Remember that the flu can last up to two weeks and you'll be weak afterwards. It's also possible to relapse if you get up too soon...you may feel better after a couple of days, but can go right back to misery again if you overdo it.
 
fruit loop said:
Epidemics are like any other disaster: something you can't do anything about, so find a way to survive it.

Again, I think flu is a mild disaster. Most people will recover.

Prep for flu as you would for anything else. In fact, illnesses ARE something that should be prepped.

Stock quick but nutritious, easy to prepare foods. You will need to keep up your strength but won't have much energy to cook. Bouillons, canned soups and stew, microwaveable Ravioli, canned pudding, etc. Suggest canned juices rather than frozen because they don't have to be mixed up and keep longer on the shelf.

Disinfectants and chlorine bleach. I always put a little bleach in my dishwasher to kill any critters that may be lurking, although the average dishwasher is hot enough to sterilize dishes.

Fever-reducing drugs such as tylenol, aspirin, and aleve. I like Aleve because it also helps the muscle cramps you get with flu

Theraflu - great stuff, but stock some honey to sweeten it because it tastes horrid

Cough syrup

OTC cold meds - remember that with flu, you treat the symptoms

Vaporizer or humidifier

Extra blankets

Vitamins

Remember that the flu can last up to two weeks and you'll be weak afterwards. It's also possible to relapse if you get up too soon...you may feel better after a couple of days, but can go right back to misery again if you overdo it.


You really haven't covered the preps or sit/rep during a Pandemic.

1) All food trucking will be halted at some point in the Pandemic.

2) Jobs will not be manned; especially those dealing with the public.

3) Most of the critical services will suffer - The LEOs, EMTs, Doctors< Nurses ect are on the front line. So expect a spell were there are none of these servcices.

4) Hospitals will be over loaded to the breaking point with-in a day (if not less).

5) The stock Market will likely plunge (but hey! No Biggie, right).

6) all meds (even OTC ones) will be in short supply.

7) Food will quickly disappear from the super markets.

8) The pandemic may possibly give an national oponent the idea that *now is the time to strike*.

There are several more events which will occur in a H5N1 pandemic.. But the above will give one a little better perspective.

<B>Bottom line; It pays to stay on top of the events!</B> Which means of course *allowing* those who are trying to keep us informed. To do so in peace (and not critquing them at their every effort.

Especially since your opinon of the situation is no more informed than mine (well not quite as informed as mine - I am watching/keeping track of the events on this baby).

Unfortunately I am not as "pie in the sky" optimistic as you are....
 
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