okie-carbine
Veteran Member
Deleted... pure woo. As requested in post #419, "alternative " guesses and woo all goes on the appropriate threat in the Alt forum.
Summerthyme
Summerthyme
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BRKG Francis Scott Key Bridge in Baltimore has collapsed
- Thread starter parocan
- Start date
SouthernBreeze
Has No Life - Lives on TB
BE started a thread in ALT forum for posts like this per admins request.
By all appearances, the Captain did everything he could to avoid the collision.
Until something substantial is brought to light, I'll take this one at face value.
A thread can be started in ALT if peeps want to explore the possibility of bigfoot stowing away on that ship and the 5G, negative waves activated his nanites ingested from Jack Link's beef jerkey...making him disable the powerplants.
I agree with you, but both can be true. It could be an attack, and the captain could have done all he could do to avoid it.
But it’s a looong stretch to think that a cyber or other sabbotage attack would have gamed out a collapse of the bridge as a result, especially with the ships captain and crew trying to save the ship
A mighty looooong stretch
I’ll wait for testimony of the pilot on board, the crew, NTSB report and go from there. I see zero evidence this could be an attack and much evidence that points to an accident
Profit of Doom
Dismember
Toosh
Veteran Member
This is probably a single screw ship. Depending on how they used thrust, that could deflect the bow to starboard. Also, there is usually a strong crosswind in that area. I would assume that windage on a container ship would be huge, causing drift.
AlfaMan
Has No Life - Lives on TB
Sparrows point marshalling yard (where cars from overseas carmakers are unloaded) and US carmakers ship their cars out overseas. Curtis Bay coast guard base, Under Armor has their manufacturing facility at Sparrows point, FedEx main distribution center for Bmore, etc. There are also at least one chemical company in that area as well.
I spent many months on and off at Sparrows Point doing TDI inspections a few years back. In the interim I've been back to look at special goods heading outbound from that port. For it being Maryland, working at Sparrows point was enjoyable. People were nice, the guards were always on top of things and it's always busy there.
Got a friend/colleague that works at Sparrows point inspecting vehicles made overseas and dropped off there. Called him as soon as I woke up this am and heard this. Thank God he's ok. He didn't go to work today; hell nobody that worked Sparrows Point did.
FCA-Alfa Romeo/Fiat/inbound Dodge Hornets/ Isuzu NPR box truck chassis/ Lexus/VW/Audi/Rolls Royce/ Bentley/Nissan are some of the cars that are about to get a little less prevalent on dealer lots.
Profit of Doom
Dismember
Sun glints?Reference to a tiktok video showing evidence of demolition charges. That goes back to the airliner that hit the 2nd tower firing missiles from under the wings just before impact. IIRC there was 'video evidence' of that as well.
RR
AlfaMan
Has No Life - Lives on TB
A really good hypothesis of what may have happened.
I do have a question. Does a boat that size have bow thrusters? If it does, are they electrically or main engine powered?
That may explain why that boat didn't try and at least turn away from the bridge piling.
I am SO glad that the bridge went to EZ pass tolling (no more toll booths on the bridge) . The old toll booths were at the base of the "hill"-where the bridge started going "up" to where the boat hit.
toxic avenger
Senior Member
A geologist told me many years ago that the Susquehanna River, and subsequently Baltimore Harbor and most of Chesapeake Bay have a granite floor, resulting in a relatively smooth and hard surface. That is also why those waterways have shallow depths.
The context of the conversation was related to an oil spill response my company was involved with on the Susquehanna and boat operators (including myself) were unable to anchor while setting up containment boom.
My first thought when I read the vessel dropped an anchor was wondering if that part of the harbor had the granite floor and therefore would have been a futile effort.
The context of the conversation was related to an oil spill response my company was involved with on the Susquehanna and boat operators (including myself) were unable to anchor while setting up containment boom.
My first thought when I read the vessel dropped an anchor was wondering if that part of the harbor had the granite floor and therefore would have been a futile effort.
Samuel Adams
Has No Life - Lives on TB
I’ll take your word for it, for now….
Meanwhile…..love the new pic.
Might I have the number for your hair stylist ?
Whole lot of fail in this. First, the pylons closest to shore were not hit. As seen in the pictures. Second, the ship was in the channel until it lost power and drifted out. Third, multiple reports state that 2 harbor pilots were onboard. Lastly the bridge was not I95 as she stated but I695.
View: https://www.flickr.com/photos/themdta/13064243183/in/album-72157642161719993/lightbox/#
medic38572
TB Fanatic
I am not a physics major, but I have more than 2 brain cells,
Johnny it is all physics. To even begin to understand what happens, one must be able to understand that. Let me just show you what I understand. You have a ship that weighs in at 10000 tons that is 2000 x 100000 which is 200,000,000 million pounds traveling at 15 knots. The power goes out twice, they lose the capability to steer. The angle they are traveling is not what it looks like on camera as the camera is stationary. The hull of the ship is atleast 18+ feet underwater. When they lose the capability to steer the rudder turns right and the captain loses complete control, pressure from 200000000 lbs of weight along with the 18 feet+ of hull underwater is a lot of deflection that causes the ship to be pushed to the right considering it was traveling at a much different path forward from the camera angles.
To show you what I mean look at a clock from the ship coming up the river it looks like it is traveling at the 20 mark on your watch. The camera is facing the ship at thirty. When the power goe out twice it starts to turn to the right unable to control because it is dead in the water and moving forward it's slowing down but still turning to the right. Why is it turning right. 1 it lost power 2. No rudder control. 3. once it started to turn right, the pressure from the water was pushing it to the right even farther.
That is the way I see it. I hope it makes sense.
Tex88
Veteran Member
For Mid-Atlantic buyers maybe, but B'More is only one of several ports/facilities VW uses to get cars into the US:
Loading…
media.vw.com
Tradepoint Atlantic Terminal is VWGoA’s eighth port in the U.S., which includes locations in Benicia, CA, Davisville, RI, Houston, TX, Jacksonville, FL, Midlothian, TX, San Diego, CA and the Volkswagen Assembly Plant in Chattanooga, TN.
Obv Midlothian is the "inland port" a bunch of manufacturer's use. And VW is already working on this:
VW plans new port to serve US dealers - Just Auto
Will be operational early in 2024
www.just-auto.com
"inland port" = get the vehicles state side in poverty spec, pay customs on that value, and then install/activate the various fancy options there. That's why import cars are pre-wired for most everything and you can, if you know how, get all the fancy options for cheap. Which in turn is why the dealers slap on all that nonsense about trukote and vin etching and crap. I swear to dog, the American car dealership system is worse than the communist East German one was. I seem to digress.
It does have bow thrusters. If you look at the side you will see a white outline circle with a prop in it. That is where the bow thruster is. The ones I have seen were all electric. Some are hydraulic. Never seen any driven by the main engine directly. That would take a lot of shafting to transfer power. Bow thrusters are for maneuvering in docking and undocking. At that speed there isn’t much a bow thruster can do.
Tex88
Veteran Member
The Wire creator David Simon calls Marjorie Taylor Greene a 'submoronic pratfall of a human being'...
Longtime Baltimore journalist and creator of The Wire called Rep. Marjorie Taylor Greene as 'submoronic' for suggesting the tragic bridge collapse was 'intentional.'
David Simon responded to a post by the far-right Georgia lawmaker and reiterated that it was 'port operation' and 'bridge maintenance' that led the Francis Scott Key Bridge to fall after a shipping container crashed into a support structure on Tuesday.
Rep. Greene posted to X, formerly Twitter, calling for a 'serious investigation' into the 'horrifying tragedy.'
'Is this an intentional attack or an accident?' the congresswoman questioned in her post amid questions whether that the bridge collapse was a terrorist attack.
Simon responded with: 'Are you intentional or just an accident? You complete submoronic pratfall of a human being.'
The man who created Baltimore-based crime drama The Wire took to social media on Tuesday to respond to a series of posts pushing conspiracies that the crash was intentional or an inside job.
'Moron, port facilities and operations, interstate bridge maintenance etc. have nothing whatsoever to do with Baltimore's governance but are all state functions,' he said in one X response.
'Immediately politicizing this is for empty, fact-free hacks,' Simon added.
Harrowing footage captured the moment Baltimore's Francis Scott Key Bridge collapsed after it was struck by a cargo ship - leaving five vehicles submerged in water and six construction workers missing.
Law enforcement said, when asked by media on Tuesday morning, that there was nothing to suggest the collision was intentional.
Maryland authorities are using sonar detection devices to search for the crew members who fell into the 47F water as they were working to repair potholes on the 185-foot bridge when it collapsed.
Governor Wes Moore declared a state of emergency Tuesday morning following the catastrophic collision, which occurred at about 1:30 amm. The ship - the Singaporean-flagged Dali - was 20 minutes into its journey when it slammed into a support column on the bridge.
The Democrat said the ship's crew managed to issue a Mayday before it crashed into the bridge, which allowed officials to stop cars from going on the bridge.
'We're thankful that between the 'mayday' and collapse that-that we had officials who were able to-to begin the stop the flow of traffic so more cars were not up on the bridge,' Moore added.
MTG called 'moronic' for suggesting bridge collapse was 'intentional'
Longtime Baltimore journalist and creator of The Wire called Rep. Marjorie Taylor Greene as 'submoronic' for suggesting the tragic bridge collapse was 'intentional.'
Safetydude
Senior Member
Let's say it's a 120 foot free fall from bridge deck, you'd hit the water doing almost 60 mph. I know from high speed boat crashes from jet boat races, at about 50 mph, water becomes a nearly solid surface for non-streamlined shapes.
Prayers for all impacted...
Remember it will come out that the Russians that did this (NOT!)
Prayers for all impacted...
Remember it will come out that the Russians that did this (NOT!)
Samuel Adams
Has No Life - Lives on TB
So if we have to take “alternate” views elsewhere, can the “alternate” bashing in this thread be diverted elsewhere, as well ?
Insults don’t conduct effective investigations.
Insults don’t conduct effective investigations.
Dobbin
Faithful Steed
So in David Simon's world you never consider "alternatives" to the established media line? All you need to know will be told to you?The Wire creator David Simon calls Marjorie Taylor Greene a 'submoronic pratfall of a human being'...
Longtime Baltimore journalist and creator of The Wire called Rep. Marjorie Taylor Greene as 'submoronic' for suggesting the tragic bridge collapse was 'intentional.'
David Simon responded to a post by the far-right Georgia lawmaker and reiterated that it was 'port operation' and 'bridge maintenance' that led the Francis Scott Key Bridge to fall after a shipping container crashed into a support structure on Tuesday.
Rep. Greene posted to X, formerly Twitter, calling for a 'serious investigation' into the 'horrifying tragedy.'
'Is this an intentional attack or an accident?' the congresswoman questioned in her post amid questions whether that the bridge collapse was a terrorist attack.
Simon responded with: 'Are you intentional or just an accident? You complete submoronic pratfall of a human being.'
The man who created Baltimore-based crime drama The Wire took to social media on Tuesday to respond to a series of posts pushing conspiracies that the crash was intentional or an inside job.
'Moron, port facilities and operations, interstate bridge maintenance etc. have nothing whatsoever to do with Baltimore's governance but are all state functions,' he said in one X response.
'Immediately politicizing this is for empty, fact-free hacks,' Simon added.
Harrowing footage captured the moment Baltimore's Francis Scott Key Bridge collapsed after it was struck by a cargo ship - leaving five vehicles submerged in water and six construction workers missing.
Law enforcement said, when asked by media on Tuesday morning, that there was nothing to suggest the collision was intentional.
Maryland authorities are using sonar detection devices to search for the crew members who fell into the 47F water as they were working to repair potholes on the 185-foot bridge when it collapsed.
Governor Wes Moore declared a state of emergency Tuesday morning following the catastrophic collision, which occurred at about 1:30 amm. The ship - the Singaporean-flagged Dali - was 20 minutes into its journey when it slammed into a support column on the bridge.
The Democrat said the ship's crew managed to issue a Mayday before it crashed into the bridge, which allowed officials to stop cars from going on the bridge.
'We're thankful that between the 'mayday' and collapse that-that we had officials who were able to-to begin the stop the flow of traffic so more cars were not up on the bridge,' Moore added.
MTG called 'moronic' for suggesting bridge collapse was 'intentional'
Longtime Baltimore journalist and creator of The Wire called Rep. Marjorie Taylor Greene as 'submoronic' for suggesting the tragic bridge collapse was 'intentional.'www.dailymail.co.uk
One expects in Mr. Simon's world, the 2020 election was "the most honest election in US History." And anyone considering that there may have been fraud are also to be questioned about their intentionality or accident. And are probably submoronic pratfalls too.
The article at least gave it all away when they termed Mr. Simon as "Democrat." I would have not known and might of assumed him as merely presumptive or simply rude. Democrat explains everything you need to know about him.
Dobbin
I have a suspicion that folks (not you mariners, of course) generally don't have a feel for how massive these propulsion systems are. I did a bit of searching to try and give some perspective. Suffice it to say, when Cap'n Eddie says Crash Astern could shear a propeller shaft, he ain't kidding. This isn't the same as hitting reverse gear in a fishing boat with an outboard motor.
There are three main manufacturers of these monsters in the world. I found a picture of the MAN facility in Germany which shows a section of a precision forged and machined crankshaft. You can see the scale by the people under it. But these are the biggest, I think. Not all of them are this massive but none of them are designed to fit under the hood of a pickup.
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AlfaMan
Has No Life - Lives on TB
The TradePoint terminal for VW actually IS Sparrows Point. They have other ports sure; but for the East coast Sparrows Point is their main point. Not just Mid Atlantic. Eastern US (particularly the northeast) is their highest sale market.For Mid-Atlantic buyers maybe, but B'More is only one of several ports/facilities VW uses to get cars into the US:
Loading…
media.vw.com
Tradepoint Atlantic Terminal is VWGoA’s eighth port in the U.S., which includes locations in Benicia, CA, Davisville, RI, Houston, TX, Jacksonville, FL, Midlothian, TX, San Diego, CA and the Volkswagen Assembly Plant in Chattanooga, TN.
Obv Midlothian is the "inland port" a bunch of manufacturer's use. And VW is already working on this:
VW plans new port to serve US dealers - Just Auto
Will be operational early in 2024
"inland port" = get the vehicles state side in poverty spec, pay customs on that value, and then install/activate the various fancy options there. That's why import cars are pre-wired for most everything and you can, if you know how, get all the fancy options for cheap. Which in turn is why the dealers slap on all that nonsense about trukote and vin etching and crap. I swear to dog, the American car dealership system is worse than the communist East German one was. I seem to digress.
Midlothian is the entry point for vehicles made in Puebla (fewer these days because the Golf line got moved back to Germany). All of VW group's high end products (Lamborghini, Porsche, Bentley) come through Baltimore and are transported nationwide from there via car transporters. Sparrows Point and San Diego are the high end unit transshipment locations.
And VW is just one carmaker there. Land Rover uses Baltimore too. In addition to all the others I mentioned. The Dodge Hornet SUV I think is going to be real scarce real quick; they're Alfa Tonales badge engineered and all of them came through Sparrows Point/ Tradepoint.
At least where I was working (not sure about other parts of the port) you had to be cleared to get on location. You have to pass a 10 year DHS background check to be able to get on the piers and onboard the RORO ships.
Tex88
Veteran Member
Correct. VW is just the one I happen to know about.
I tend to agree with this analysis only the bridge fell eerily similar to twin towers
bw
Fringe Ranger
On the other hand, if you're falling WITH the bridge deck, there's a lot of tonnage poking that initial hole in the water for you. The turbulence of the water then coming around the decking, hitting you and banging you against girders is a second hazard, and might be even worse than the drop.
bw
Fringe Ranger
Well, down, of course. Not much similar beyond that. Twin towers reference should go to alt.
Bubble Head
Has No Life - Lives on TB
Never been on a merchant ship but a lot of sea time in service. The power generated goes into a reduction gear. Very large type transmission. You could not use the rpm’s directly off a Diesel engine or motor. It would shear the shaft or torque it.
The lights went out because the generator tripped from the load. They came back on briefly and tripped again. Overloaded circuit. I assume a auxiliary generator that engages when primary fails but I really don’t know their engineering. In any event the ship went dead because they lost electricity. This I have been through. Until the electrical main control is examined it is all wild guesses. Sure you could sabotage the system but from what I have viewed on the board the captain did all he could do in the short time to do it.
Tex88
Veteran Member
That is not what’s happening here. In MY world, if a clock stops I check if it ran out battery, or needs winding up, or if it got damaged or worn out. I don’t go frantically looking around for imaginary clock damaging goblins from outer space hired by the government to make me late for work so they can hire illegal immigrants.
Tristan
Has No Life - Lives on TB
Lara Logan.
She must be desperate for eyes.
Or, she's being 'Played'.
Sherrynboo
Veteran Member
Cap't Eddie, we live to go down rabbit holes, the deeper the better
You ought to know that by now!
Macgyver
Has No Life - Lives on TB
No, they have to stop the engine and essentially start it backwards.
Johnny Twoguns
Senior Member
I'd give the demo's at least two hours to get on it!
Safetydude
Senior Member
1/2mv*2 That be a whole lot of force that ship was packing!! Dropping an anchor might just shear everything associated with the anchor system if the anchor hit and lodged on a crack in solid bedrock. Regardless this is bad news all around. Shows how fragile our infrastructures can be. Wonder it someone did their "what-if" analysis on the piers...seems like they need a "Jersey Barrier" like system around bridges piers?
When I look at old railroad bridges out west over rivers with no ship traffic and the size of the bridge piers, proportionally, the RR bridges are huge and look way over-designed compared to the FSK bridge. Just my musings.
When I look at old railroad bridges out west over rivers with no ship traffic and the size of the bridge piers, proportionally, the RR bridges are huge and look way over-designed compared to the FSK bridge. Just my musings.
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Cap'n, you're making good suppositions as always. The way that power went off, came back on and then went off again makes me want to expand the root cause to something in the electrical distribution system.
Being built in 2015, I would <presume> this vessel has DC generators, which are required to power equipment at different speeds, whether it's a propeller shaft or a drilling rig's drawworks, mud pumps or anchoring system. 2015 probably means it has a VFD (Variable Frequency Drive) instead of an SCR (silicon-controlled rectifier) system to convert to AC power such things as lighting, centrifugal pumps like firewater, fuel and bilge pumps, etc. And you're right in that most vessels have an independent generator system which powers a lot of that stuff, with a system which is designed to have an auxiliary to kick in automatically. No way they could've gotten mains restarted that quickly. Every bit of that power goes through the electrical distribution system sitting in their mysterious rooms.
ETA: A VFD system could have AC generators for their mains. as the VFD can adjust current without having to convert from DC power. Decades ago, I was sent to General Electric's motor propulsion school in Portland - back when that was an awesome city to visit - and didn't touch anything for two weeks, convinced that I'd be electrocuted.
But you know how those panels in those rooms just sit there and make an ominous hum - always spooked me, anyway. I always thought Lightning Man was going to reach out and zap me!
And it wouldn't take something which would cause a main breaker to kick out to completely shut down all the AC power throughout the ship, except for the battery-powered backup emergency lighting and comms. And they might reset momentarily but could, with some sort of fault in the system, kick right back out again after they'd been reset. That was exactly my thought when I watched those two quick complete blackouts.
Anyway, I'm probably off base but I'll bet the NTSB and Coast Guard teams have been all over those systems already. I sure do hope they come up with something quickly but these kinds of things seem to take months, sadly.
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bw
Fringe Ranger
For a laugh, look at the anchor drop in the Battleship film, when the ship spins around.
Those damn hobgoblins!
Johnny Twoguns
Senior Member
I was at a gun show doing displays one time in Butte, MT. There was a good looking younger thing getting pee-eyed at the bar near the motel and we were chatting. At one point she said, slightly slurred, in ALL SERIOUSNESS, "there are only TWO MEN IN MY LIFE THAT HAVE NEVER SCREWED ME OVER, MY DAD AND CAPTAIN MORGAN!"
True story.
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I think it is easy to forget a lot of ocean going modern ships have bulbous bow below the water line to cut through the water and gain speed or fuel economy.
So the ship hits objects well before you see the bow make contact.